Syed's Mega-Thread

[Syed]

Gila Guerilla

there is no death penalty for apostasy in islam

allah in arabic = god, arabic christians and jews called god allah


no propaganda can stop spreading of islam

 

[DBT]

Regardless of the word 'Allah' meaning 'God' in Arabic, the god of Islam is not the same as the god of Judaism, which is not the same as the god of Christianity (Judaism rejects the Christian status of Jesus).

These are all different versions of the idea of God.

 

[Lion IRC]

There is only One God.
All people of the book know this

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DBT doesn't know

 

[DBT]

There is only One God.
All people of the book know this

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DBT doesn't know

You miss the point. Rather than address what I said, you make a claim about me.

Again. The Christian model of God is not the same as the Judaic model because Orthodox Judaism not only rejects Jesus as being the Messiah but consequently, being the Son of God, which makes it a different version of God.

You can't have it both ways, either Jesus is the son of God and the prophesied Messiah, or he is not.

And of course, Islam claims that Jesus was merely a prophet of God, which is another model of what is claimed to be the same god, yet we have three different incompatible versions of god.

All people of the book know this

People of which particular book? The quran? The Torah? The new testament?

Orthodox Judaism does not recognise the authority of the NT, and Islam has its own claims.

 

[Syed]

Regardless of the word 'Allah' meaning 'God' in Arabic, the god of Islam is not the same as the god of Judaism, which is not the same as the god of Christianity (Judaism rejects the Christian status of Jesus).

These are all different versions of the idea of God.

all human worship same god but understand god differently

 

[sdelsolray]

There is only One God.
All people of the book know this

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DBT doesn't know

You merely believe this. You do not know.

 

[bilby]

Regardless of the word 'Allah' meaning 'God' in Arabic, the god of Islam is not the same as the god of Judaism, which is not the same as the god of Christianity (Judaism rejects the Christian status of Jesus).

These are all different versions of the idea of God.

all human worship same god but understand god differently

We hear this a lot from theists. It's a shame that, like so many of their claims, it's demonstrably untrue.

 

[Syed]

all human worship same god but understand god differently

We hear this a lot from theists. It's a shame that, like so many of their claims, it's demonstrably untrue.

i know atheists believe there are million gods but there is only one god people understand god differently by their own culture and tradition

 

[Keith&Co.]

i know atheists believe there are million gods

You really need to work on your vocabulary...

but there is only one god people understand god differently by their own culture and tradition

This seems to be an odd position for one who has so heavily mocked the Trinity. Doesn't the Koran teach that people who worship multiple gods are NOT worshiping the right God? That pagans are going to hell?

 

[bilby]

We hear this a lot from theists. It's a shame that, like so many of their claims, it's demonstrably untrue.

i know atheists believe there are million gods but there is only one god people understand god differently by their own culture and tradition

Real things that exist outside people's imagination are not understood differently depending on culture and tradition.

There's no such thing as Islamic gravity, or Hindu avionics, or Shinto fluid dynamics. Reality is universal. Culture is parochial. Gods are imaginary, and there are as many versions as there are believers. That's why religions keep undergoing schisms, despite the desperate attempts of priests to hold everyone to a single party line.

When someone says that they believe in the same God as everyone else, and then goes to war over a point of doctrine, I tend to trust their actions more than I trust their words. Even Christians don't all follow the same god; if they did, then what would be the motivation for grown adults in Belfast to spit on school children?

 

[Syed]

You really need to work on your vocabulary...

but there is only one god people understand god differently by their own culture and tradition

This seems to be an odd position for one who has so heavily mocked the Trinity. Doesn't the Koran teach that people who worship multiple gods are NOT worshiping the right God? That pagans are going to hell?

quran did try to correct who is god and nature of god BUT as long people believe in god and do good to other human god will accept them

QURAN _
Verse (2:62) - English Translation

Sahih International: Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Pickthall: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Yusuf Ali: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Shakir: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Muhammad Sarwar: However, those who have become believers (the Muslims), and the Jews, the Christians and the Sabaeans who believe in God and the Day of Judgment and strive righteously will receive their reward from the Lord and will have nothing to fear nor will they be grieved.

Mohsin Khan: Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .

Arberry: Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabaeans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness -- their wage awaits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them; neither shall they sorrow.

 

[Keith&Co.]

quran did try to correct who is god and nature of god BUT as long people believe in god and do good to other human god will accept them

That's incorrect, Syed.

Those who say, "God is the Messiah, son of Mary," have defied God. The Messiah himself said; "Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord." If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are.

— Qur'an, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat 72-75[4]

THose who are not monotheists are, according to the Quran, not going to Hell.
And those who believe God has a partner, whether wife, son, ghost, or whatever, are not monotheists, according to the Quran.

So maybe the Christains who reject the Trinity can be saved, but not all worshipers of the God of the Books.

 

[Syed]

That's incorrect, Syed.

Those who say, "God is the Messiah, son of Mary," have defied God. The Messiah himself said; "Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord." If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are.

— Qur'an, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat 72-75[4]

THose who are not monotheists are, according to the Quran, not going to Hell.
And those who believe God has a partner, whether wife, son, ghost, or whatever, are not monotheists, according to the Quran.

So maybe the Christains who reject the Trinity can be saved, but not all worshipers of the God of the Books.

Quran
5:72
'' They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.''

to MY understanding above verse is WARNING

Quran 5:73

'' They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.''

above verse to MY understanding is trinity will confused people about god nature that lead to rejection of god and those who rejected god they will face god punishment

Quran
5:5 Ayat 5
The good things have this day been made lawful to you. The food of those to whom the Book was given is lawful to you, and your food is lawful to them. Lawful to you (in marriage) are the free believing women and the free women from among those who were given the Book before you, provided that you give them their dowries in marriage, neither committing fornication nor taking them as mistresses. Whosoever denies the belief, his labors will be annulled. In the Everlasting Life he is of the losers.

above verse saying that muslimS can eat food from christians and jews and muslim men also can marry a christian and jewish women

 

[Keith&Co.]

to MY understanding above verse is WARNING

Kind of a meaningless quibble. It still says that pagans don't worship the same god, including some of the Christains.

above verse to MY understanding is trinity will confused people about god nature that lead to rejection of god and those who rejected god they will face god punishment

But that's not what it says.
It's not talking about confused people who STOP believing in a triune god, it's talking about people who are faithful to the wrong god.
Your claimed understanding of Islam is at odds with the Quran, Syed, and your tapdancing doesn't solve your problem.

above verse saying that muslimS can eat food from christians and jews and muslim men also can marry a christian and jewish women

Whoop-de-doesn't-change-my-point-doo.
You can marry one, doesn't mean that they're not going to Hell for denying the monotheistic god you claim to worship. See that bit, where they are 'of the losers?'

 

[Syed]

Kind of a meaningless quibble. It still says that pagans don't worship the same god, including some of the Christains.

above verse to MY understanding is trinity will confused people about god nature that lead to rejection of god and those who rejected god they will face god punishment

But that's not what it says.
It's not talking about confused people who STOP believing in a triune god, it's talking about people who are faithful to the wrong god.
Your claimed understanding of Islam is at odds with the Quran, Syed, and your tapdancing doesn't solve your problem.

above verse saying that muslimS can eat food from christians and jews and muslim men also can marry a christian and jewish women

Whoop-de-doesn't-change-my-point-doo.
You can marry one, doesn't mean that they're not going to Hell for denying the monotheistic god you claim to worship. See that bit, where they are 'of the losers?'

you need to read all verses in the QURAN about christians and jews THEN come to conclusion

you just cant take one verse from quran come to conclusion

below verse and MANY other verses in the quran makes no sense IF i agree with you

QURAN _
Verse (2:62) - English Translation

'' Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.''

QURAN

'' Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (Quran 3:113-114)''

And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God. They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (Quran 3:199)

 

[Keith&Co.]

you need to read all verses in the QURAN about christians and jews THEN come to conclusion

But why? You QUOTE isolated verses from the Quran, taken out of context, to tell us what they mean, and then interpret other verses to say something other than what's written there.

you just cant take one verse from quran come to conclusion

I can at least see that what the verse says directly contradicts what you claim to be your understanding of Islam.

below verse and MANY other verses in the quran makes no sense IF i agree with you

They make sense if the author's understanding of Christain is monotheist. If he wasn't familiar with those Christains who support a Trinity, then they make perfect sense.
It's you that's trying to pull a different meaning out of the verse than what's in plain text.

 

[Syed]

Keith&Co.

ok

let discuss ONE verse at a time

you explain to me this verse what it says?

QURAN _
Verse (2:62) - English Translation Yusuf Ali:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

 

[Keith&Co.]

No, how about you discuss Quran 5:72, and explain it in a manner that's consistent with what's written in the text?
Not just try to waive it away and substitute your preferred message.

 

[DBT]

Regardless of the word 'Allah' meaning 'God' in Arabic, the god of Islam is not the same as the god of Judaism, which is not the same as the god of Christianity (Judaism rejects the Christian status of Jesus).

These are all different versions of the idea of God.

all human worship same god but understand god differently

No. There is a clear contradiction between the Christian version of God and the Islamic version of God, both of these versions being in contradiction with the nature of the God of Judaism.

Logically, they cannot all be right. Either one is right and the rest wrong, or most likely, given how these ideas have evolved over time, all are wrong

 

[Syed]

No, how about you discuss Quran 5:72, and explain it in a manner that's consistent with what's written in the text?
Not just try to waive it away and substitute your preferred message.

didn't i already explained to you that ?


you explain to me this Verse (2:62) and THEN we go one by one all verses in the QURAN about christians

is that fair debate?