Tara Reade is a person who exists

[Metaphor]

If a belief cannot be willed, then that belief is irrational.

I don't know why you believe that, but that's false.

In order for education or evidence to change a belief, the person must choose to entertain the evidence or obtain the education and then choose to change the belief - all of which require some will.

No. You can't choose to change your beliefs. Your beliefs changing (or failing to change) as a result of exposure to education or evidence does not mean you chose for your beliefs to change, even if you chose to engage with the education or evidence.

 

[Metaphor]

I understand. You cannot distinguish between "unwanted" and "unwelcome". The first was an unwelcome advance (and it is debatable whether it was sexual or affectionate) and the second was clearly unwanted.

Oh, I see. The whole thing turns on the difference between "unwanted" and "unwelcome", something that Ford made quite clear in his original anecdote and something I missed in all my obtuseness.

Not to me. I conflated nothing. Your OPs are example of nitpicking statement made by women. Your bete noire are "feminists" as if feminist all think and belief the same thing.

Actually, feminists don't all believe the same thing, evident from the internecine strife within it. But feminism has a core of bad ideas and tactics that are prominent enough that I think the whole thing can be safely scuttled.

Of course you do. I would say that your comicbook view of the world and feminism leads you to that belief, but that would imply you willed your belief, which is not possible.

No, it wouldn't imply that. In fact, that would be arguing my own side. If my "comic book" view of the world led me to believe that feminists are all the same, then that belief about feminists was clearly caused by another belief (my comic book view). I didn't choose my comic book view of the world, either.

 

[Metaphor]

I'm afraid you don't understand. I can tell it was an unwanted sexual advance. What I can't tell is why it was also classified as an attempted sexual assault. It can't be because it was an unwanted sexual advance, because the first example was an unwanted sexual advance but not a sexual assault.



Of course, you conflate criticising feminism -- and feminists -- with "anti-woman animus". I suppose this is sufficient for you: anti-feminist means anti-woman. Of course, it is the exact opposite. I believe feminism harms men and women.

But, as we all know, beliefs are irrational and cannot be willed away - even with education or evidence.

I never said all beliefs were irrational nor did I say education or evidence can't change people's beliefs. It simply does not follow from what I've said about beliefs.

The difference between an unwanted sexual advance and an attempted or threatened (or accomplished) sexual assault is the latter comes with an implied or explicit threat of force or actual force.

Most women and lot of men have experienced an unwelcomeor unwanted sexual
advance. Someone tried to pull you into a kiss that you don’t want. Lots of times it’s simply what we used to call a pass. You don’t return someone else’s feelings. Happens. Hopefully no hurt feelings.

It is an assault or attempted assault when someone attempts to isolate you from help, or seeks to prevent your escape from their advances or does not respect your refusal and attempts or does force unwanted sexual contact. That happens too often.

So, I'm interested. How do you know any of those conditions from the story Ford told?

A sexual assaulter would isolate somebody "from help", but somebody who was making a sexual overture might wait until they are alone with the person they want to make the overture towards, because making a sexual overture isn't generally a public thing.

If the attempted assaulter in Ford's story sought to prevent her escape (perhaps implied by Ford's "cornered" language), did he change his mind about assaulting her halfway through, or was the receptionist able to physically fight him off or outrun him or trick him, or something else?

 

[laughing dog]

Oh, I see. The whole thing turns on the difference between "unwanted" and "unwelcome", something that Ford made quite clear in his original anecdote and something I missed in all my obtuseness.

I don't know if the whole thing turns on the difference, but yeah, you missed in all of your obtuseness.

Actually, feminists don't all believe the same thing, evident from the internecine strife within it. But feminism has a core of bad ideas and tactics that are prominent enough that I think the whole thing can be safely scuttled.

Of course, in the comic book view of it.

No, it wouldn't imply that. In fact, that would be arguing my own side. If my "comic book" view of the world led me to believe that feminists are all the same, then that belief about feminists was clearly caused by another belief (my comic book view). I didn't choose my comic book view of the world, either.

Thank you for admitting your view is inherently irrational.

 

[Metaphor]

One thing I didn't tell you is that Solid Gold Asshole was also (the equivalent of) an assistant manager. Therefore in addition to his greater size, there was a power dynamic at work in the garage incident. What really blows my mind is your apparent argument (below) that since SGA was rebuffed or unsuccessful in his attempt to forcefully hold her down and kiss her, it was therefore not attempted sexual assault at all. This is the equivalent of saying "well the guy tried to rape a woman, but he didn't actually penetrate her, so no harm, no foul."

No, that is not my argument. I asked how she got out of it. What changed the situation from an actual assault into an attempted assault?

(sighs) Again, it's not just my "narrative." I know the parties involved, the locations of the incidents, had corroboration from several sources on the second incident - including from the victim herself - and can provide a level of detail you cannot.

Yes. That's why I asked you for details.

Or perhaps you'd like to regale us with your knowledge? Just tell me the cross-streets of the building, the name of the complex, the type of restaurant that was on the main floor, the floor of the parking garage where it took place, and whether it was in the designated employee spaces or in the overflow area. I'll wait...

Actually, I won't. That would be ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as you trying to rewrite my own experiences to fit your own view of the world.

I haven't rewritten anything. I'm trying to understand it.

 

[Ford]

The difference between an unwanted sexual advance and an attempted or threatened (or accomplished) sexual assault is the latter comes with an implied or explicit threat of force or actual force.

Most women and lot of men have experienced an unwelcomeor unwanted sexual
advance. Someone tried to pull you into a kiss that you don’t want. Lots of times it’s simply what we used to call a pass. You don’t return someone else’s feelings. Happens. Hopefully no hurt feelings.

It is an assault or attempted assault when someone attempts to isolate you from help, or seeks to prevent your escape from their advances or does not respect your refusal and attempts or does force unwanted sexual contact. That happens too often.

So, I'm interested. How do you know any of those conditions from the story Ford told?

I'm interested in how YOU know more than me about the respective situations?

If the attempted assaulter in Ford's story sought to prevent her escape (perhaps implied by Ford's "cornered" language), did he change his mind about assaulting her halfway through, or was the receptionist able to physically fight him off or outrun him or trick him, or something else?

Gee, if only there was a person in the discussion who had actually talked to the receptionist...or someone who had been in the parking garage in question...

 

[Metaphor]

Thank you for admitting your view is inherently irrational.

If unchosen beliefs are "inherently" irrational, all humans are inherently irrational, including you.

The lights are not on in my room as I write this sentence. I didn't choose to believe that and I can't change that belief.

But since my belief accords with the evidence, it isn't irrational.

 

[laughing dog]

What I see is
1) Trump supporters view Tara Reade's story as an equivalent counterpart to their human shitpost's deplorable admissions and exploits, and
2) Democrats struggling to parse a difference between Tara Reade's allegations and the allegations against Trump.

I think Democrats should simply state that whatever happened between Reade and Biden is not comparable to Trump's exploits. After all, if someone will not vote for Biden because of Reade's allegations, then they will not vote for Trump. IMO, Republicans are using this as a smokescreen but I think they are making a big mistake. Because if they tout this, all of many disgusting allegations against Trump will resurface.

 

[Metaphor]

I'm interested in how YOU know more than me about the respective situations?

I don't fucking know! I'm fucking asking you about them!

Gee, if only there was a person in the discussion who had actually talked to the receptionist...or someone who had been in the parking garage in question...

So, can you answer the question?

 

[Elixir]

...if they tout this, all of many disgusting allegations against Trump will resurface.

I was wondering WTF the TCF* might be thinking, going there.
The explanation for this kind of idiocy usually turns out to be "well at least it's not (x)" where "x" is a scandal du jour that needs burying. The real problem for the TCF is that their genocidal dereliction of duty is going to keep on killing people long after everyone has forgotten about Tara Reade. This will be a long-running nightmare and they need a durable distraction now.

Maybe Tara Reade was all they had, after the Zelenskyy extortion scheme fell apart. Maybe they were saving it for October, but decided to break it out now because ... panic. It has at least forced Joe to deny her story, but I doubt that the TCF expected Biden to call for a investigation. Sure, it's bad news but it's better for Cheato than news of body counts, case counts, mortality rates, doubling intervals, hospital capacity levels, food plant closures etc.

When the good news is that you are a known and admitted serial sexual predator with 25 accusers and have found someone to say good 'old Joe assaulted them... prob'ly just not your day.

*Trump Crime Family

 

[Jarhyn]

What I see is
1) Trump supporters view Tara Reade's story as an equivalent counterpart to their human shitpost's deplorable admissions and exploits, and
2) Democrats struggling to parse a difference between Tara Reade's allegations and the allegations against Trump.

I think Democrats should simply state that whatever happened between Reade and Biden is not comparable to Trump's exploits. After all, if someone will not vote for Biden because of Reade's allegations, then they will not vote for Trump. IMO, Republicans are using this as a smokescreen but I think they are making a big mistake. Because if they tout this, all of many disgusting allegations against Trump will resurface.

I keep saying this! Like, I think it's a fucking tragedy that we got to the point where we are forced to decide between creepy inappropriate guy and an actual child molester who casually admits to sexual assault, let alone any of the other criminal acts he has perpetrated and continues to perpetrate.

Seriously, it's no fucking contest. I feel bad for Tara Reade. I do. I do hope she sees justice and I do hope it catches up with Biden. But I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face. I'm still voting for him, because the alternative is worse.

We should focus on dealing with one thing at a time here, namely removing the orange turd and then dealing with the consequences of what had to be done to make that happen afterwards. Sorry Tara, but the myriad of victims and corpses, and border prisoners, and all the other bullshit that arises from The Fart take precedence over your trauma. We have a trolley problem; a decision has to be made and it is looking out for the needs of the many over the needs of the one. I would vote for MY abuser before I would vote for Trump, before I would abstain and let my absence of voice give more voice to those who would vote for Trump.

Maybe we'll luck out and get a prog VP we can get into office through a Biden impeachment, resignation, or through some other form of succession.

 

[Ford]

I asked how she got out of it. What changed the situation from an actual assault into an attempted assault?.

Why are you so obsessed with this particular detail? Are you planning something along these lines and would like a "winning" strategy to keep a victim from escaping?

On that level, I don't want to tell you.

Yet the truth is, it is irrelevant. Whether she punched him in the dick, or blew a rape whistle, or simply yelled loudly doesn't matter. What matters is HIS unacceptable behavior. The fact that he ATTEMPTED to assault her is enough for me, but not enough for you, apparently.

You still don't seem to grasp the fundamental difference between (to borrow Toni's word) a person making a "pass" at someone and a person attempting to take something by force, or threat of force, or threat of retaliation.



The woman I was married to at the time - the reason I declined the "invitation" from the receptionist - was a survivor of horrific domestic abuse...rape included. During the time we were together, I did fundraising for a battered women's shelter, spoke to experts on the subject, attended therapy with my then wife, and have spent quite a bit of time in classes, seminars and online courses learning about the impacts and signs of domestic abuse, sexual abuse, and sexual harassment. This goes beyond an unwanted flirtatious encounter with a co-worker for me. If you truly are "trying to understand it," then you need to back way the fuck up, drop your preconceived notions about "feminism" and what constitutes assault vs simple unwanted attention, and perhaps most importantly listen to women (that's gonna be a hard row to hoe for you) who have been through this sort of thing.

That's what I did. Instead of asking "wow, that's scary...how did you fight him off and keep from getting assaulted" I would ask questions like "are you okay? Is there anything I can do for you? Do you need a ride to a shelter?" and such.


Circling back around to the basic point I made earlier that seems to have been missed in your quest for the salacious details, it's that serial abusers like Solid Gold Asshole and Donald Trump exhibit a pattern of behavior which is repeated over and over again. I believe the accusations against Trump because (as I've said before) I know someone who was sexually harassed by him when she was on "The Apprentice." I also have spoken to an author who wrote extensively on breaking the cycle of abuse because it is a cycle. Solid Gold Asshole, Trump, my ex-wife's former boyfriend, and many other "men" were taught by their fathers and families that this was just how you treated women, and that "feminism" was an unfair response to "the way things ought to be."


You seem to be struggling with understanding that feminism is somehow unfair. It is not. It's a perfectly understandable response. It is very much like a frightened woman cornered in a parking garage punching a man in the dick and saying "I'm not going to put up with this shit anymore."

 

[Jarhyn]

So, on that note, as for the current [off-]topic that metaphor keeps going after, the failure of an attempt, either through accident, ineptitude, or the aptitude of the victim, does not change the moral failing of the perpetrator. They are still dangerous. They are still a threat and a problem, and their failure only means that next time (and there WILL be a next time), they will be less incompetent.

To me, an attempted crime ought be "punished" as a successful rape, with segregation from society and professional behavioral correction programs; it shouldn't matter if the attempt was casting a magic spell in an earnest attempt to death-curse someone or shooting them in the head with a gun. Either way, it constitutes the basic moral failing that makes someone a danger to society.

 

[Metaphor]

Why are you so obsessed with this particular detail?

I can't think how many different ways to ask you. I want to know why this was an attempted sexual assault and not merely an unwanted sexual advance.

Are you planning something along these lines and would like a "winning" strategy to keep a victim from escaping?

Ford, it's one thing to accuse me of hating women. It's another to accuse me of being a would-be sexual assaulter and/or rapist.

Yet the truth is, it is irrelevant. Whether she punched him in the dick, or blew a rape whistle, or simply yelled loudly doesn't matter. What matters is HIS unacceptable behavior. The fact that he ATTEMPTED to assault her is enough for me, but not enough for you, apparently.

"Enough"?

What is it you imagine I'm after? I'm asking, and I've been asking, why his actions were an attempted sexual assault and not merely an unwelcome sexual advance. People have come up with all sorts of reasons why it might be, but none of those were in your original narrative.

You still don't seem to grasp the fundamental difference between (to borrow Toni's word) a person making a "pass" at someone and a person attempting to take something by force, or threat of force, or threat of retaliation.

Well, which is it? Was it a threat of force? Was it a threat of retaliation? What?

That's what I did. Instead of asking "wow, that's scary...how did you fight him off and keep from getting assaulted" I would ask questions like "are you okay? Is there anything I can do for you? Do you need a ride to a shelter?" and such.

I'm not talking to the person who was nearly assaulted. I'm talking to you!

Circling back around to the basic point I made earlier that seems to have been missed in your quest for the salacious details, it's that serial abusers like Solid Gold Asshole and Donald Trump exhibit a pattern of behavior which is repeated over and over again. I believe the accusations against Trump because (as I've said before) I know someone who was sexually harassed by him when she was on "The Apprentice." I also have spoken to an author who wrote extensively on breaking the cycle of abuse because it is a cycle. Solid Gold Asshole, Trump, my ex-wife's former boyfriend, and many other "men" were taught by their fathers and families that this was just how you treated women, and that "feminism" was an unfair response to "the way things ought to be."

I'm not asking about Trump. I'm asking about the receptionist and her encounter.

You seem to be struggling with understanding that feminism is somehow unfair. It is not. It's a perfectly understandable response. It is very much like a frightened woman cornered in a parking garage punching a man in the dick and saying "I'm not going to put up with this shit anymore."

Huh? You think I'm pro sexual assault and that's why I reject feminism?

 

[Metaphor]

So, on that note, as for the current [off-]topic that metaphor keeps going after, the failure of an attempt, either through accident, ineptitude, or the aptitude of the victim, does not change the moral failing of the perpetrator.

Who said it did?

 

[Ford]

I can't think how many different ways to ask you. I want to know why this was an attempted sexual assault and not merely an unwanted sexual advance.

I can't think of how many different ways you've missed the simple answer.

It is somewhere in between "hey, you wanna go back to my place later?" and "get in the car now, bitch."

If you can't even ballpark the point where it turns, then there's no hope for you.

 

[Metaphor]

I can't think how many different ways to ask you. I want to know why this was an attempted sexual assault and not merely an unwanted sexual advance.

I can't think of how many different ways you've missed the simple answer.

It is somewhere in between "hey, you wanna go back to my place later?" and "get in the car now, bitch."

If you can't even ballpark the point where it turns, then there's no hope for you.

Okay, so you don't want to tell me.

 

[Ford]

I can't think how many different ways to ask you. I want to know why this was an attempted sexual assault and not merely an unwanted sexual advance.

I can't think of how many different ways you've missed the simple answer.

It is somewhere in between "hey, you wanna go back to my place later?" and "get in the car now, bitch."

If you can't even ballpark the point where it turns, then there's no hope for you.

Okay, so you don't want to tell me.

As I explicitly said above, I want you to figured it out for yourself.

If you truly are "trying to understand it," then you need to back way the fuck up, drop your preconceived notions about "feminism" and what constitutes assault vs simple unwanted attention, and perhaps most importantly listen to women (that's gonna be a hard row to hoe for you) who have been through this sort of thing.

I'm not going to do your homework for you.

 

[Metaphor]

As I explicitly said above, I want you to figured it out for yourself.

I can't figure out in what way the incident was an attempted assault because I don't have all the facts about it. You do. Remember when you said you had the information about the incident and I didn't? That was true. You have information about the incident that I don't.

Toni offered three ways that the incident would be attempted assault, though it isn't clear which is the actual scenario that made it attempted assault. Since this is not a hypothetical but an actual incident, an incident you have privileged knowledge about, it's actually entirely up to you to tell me.

I'm not going to do your homework for you.

I didn't ask you to.

 

[Toni]

How do you explain the coincidence that Tara's story was also in a fictionalized book written by her father?

And part of EJC's story was in a Law and Order episode. Both are fakers and clout chasers.


"Most people think of rape as being sexy."
E. Jean Carroll

Law and Order often took stories from headlines. And sometimes from things that I knew happened but were not headlines. Carroll was a prominent writer in NYC during this time period. It is quite likely that someone knew the story--from Ms. Carroll herself.