Tests of Astrology

[bilby]

The point is that any effects need not be due to gravitation specifically.

My point wasn't about gravitation specifically.

All possible influences from planets should also be possible influences from nearby massive objects such as aircraft and ships, which change their positions relative to the people they are supposedly influencing.

Unless planets have souls?

 

[Swammerdami]

The point is that any effects need not be due to gravitation specifically.

My point wasn't about gravitation specifically.

All possible influences from planets should also be possible influences from nearby massive objects such as aircraft and ships, which change their positions relative to the people they are supposedly influencing.

Unless planets have souls?

I won't bother to scrutinize your analysis, but a glance suggests you assume all forces are inverse-square-distance or worse.

Consider this friendly advice. You are often the 2nd-smartest person in the room on some topics; and that has made you quite over-confident of your opinions.

 

[bilby]

The point is that any effects need not be due to gravitation specifically.

My point wasn't about gravitation specifically.

All possible influences from planets should also be possible influences from nearby massive objects such as aircraft and ships, which change their positions relative to the people they are supposedly influencing.

Unless planets have souls?

I won't bother to scrutinize your analysis,

Thanks.

but a glance suggests you assume all forces are inverse-square-distance or worse.

It seems reasonable to make that assumption; But if it were untrue, that wouldn't change my analysis.

Perhaps you should have scrutinized it.

Consider this friendly advice.

I don't; It very obviously isn't.

You are often the 2nd-smartest person in the room on some topics; and that has made you quite over-confident of your opinions.

Though it may well be projection.

 

[Jarhyn]

Astrology is the claim that the celestial bodies control our destinies and other earthly events to much greater degree and much finer granularity than is recognized in modern science.

This is one interpretation of astrology yes.

Another interpretation is that it is a belief that people with particular personality traits tend to be born around the same time of year every year owing to much more terrestrial causes, combined with a belief that it's healthy to use what is essentially a random number generator to occasionally visit on themes in a person's life. Naturally, this needs to be broken up so that not everyone tries the same shit all on the same day at the same time for the same reason.

I don't think there's much value in letting a massive celestial pRNG be the source of advice I receive. I do think there's at least a little value in the variance this produces in terms of suggestions on stuff to do, breaking up routines and cycles to force variation into one's life. I don't really buy into it much that the time and place of one's birth has much to do with it, though.

Does this mean the stars control our fates? Hell no. We do. But the stars do provide a handy amount of "weirdness" which we can use as a seed of chaos to stir up our lives from time to time, and the prophecy is a little self fulfilling if and when people decide to play to those stereotypes associated with sign.

I think that's what a lot of people fail to understand.

Tarot works in the same way, not as a window into a world of grander fates woven by celestial hands, but as a window into a world inside ourselves, as a set that will be explored from top to bottom as to various themes of life that we all need to consider from time to time in various ways.

So when I encounter people into astrology, I try to push them more towards the healthier interpretation rather than creating a vacuum in their life, rather than creating a lack of mechanism to fulfill that role.

I imagine those seeking to break people away from unhealthy interpretations of astrology would have some responsibility to offer some replacement for that "stirring rod" that they are trying to denigrate.

It's just that most such replacements generally take a similar format, and people have a long history showing a tendency to elevate such mechanisms from "social stirring rod" to "messages from the gods", so you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I just ran across this test of astrology in Hacker News. No, astrology does not work.

Thread by @SpencrGreenberg on Thread Reader App

@SpencrGreenberg: Does astrology work? We tested the ability of 152 astrologers to see if they could demonstrate genuine astrological skill. Here is how the study was designed and what we found (including a result t...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[Bomb#20]

 

[lpetrich]

I just ran across this test of astrology in Hacker News. No, astrology does not work.

Thread by @SpencrGreenberg on Thread Reader App

@SpencrGreenberg: Does astrology work? We tested the ability of 152 astrologers to see if they could demonstrate genuine astrological skill. Here is how the study was designed and what we found (including a result t...…

threadreaderapp.com

I'd posted on that research earlier.

About the Sun Sign research, the authors did not test for possible correlations between Big Five personality factors and Sun signs, something I find disappointing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is that any effects need not be due to gravitation specifically.

My point wasn't about gravitation specifically.

All possible influences from planets should also be possible influences from nearby massive objects such as aircraft and ships, which change their positions relative to the people they are supposedly influencing.

Unless planets have souls?

I won't bother to scrutinize your analysis, but a glance suggests you assume all forces are inverse-square-distance or worse.

Any actual influence from a planet will be from a change in force--like tides, cube of distance. (Which is why the moon beats the sun.)

Consider this friendly advice. You are often the 2nd-smartest person in the room on some topics; and that has made you quite over-confident of your opinions.

I think it was humor.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Astrology is the claim that the celestial bodies control our destinies and other earthly events to much greater degree and much finer granularity than is recognized in modern science.

This is one interpretation of astrology yes.

Another interpretation is that it is a belief that people with particular personality traits tend to be born around the same time of year every year owing to much more terrestrial causes, combined with a belief that it's healthy to use what is essentially a random number generator to occasionally visit on themes in a person's life. Naturally, this needs to be broken up so that not everyone tries the same shit all on the same day at the same time for the same reason.

It occurs to me that in the old days there probably was a considerably bigger effect from birth time. Now it's youngest/oldest of a cohort, back then people didn't eat as well during the winter. It's like what I've seen in China--I can see over the heads of those who grew up under the collectivized rule. I can't see over the heads of those who grew up after they went to a market economy.

 

[Elixir]

It occurs to me that in the old days there probably was a considerably bigger effect from birth time. Now it's youngest/oldest of a cohort, back then people didn't eat as well during the winter. It's like what I've seen in China--I can see over the heads of those who grew up under the collectivized rule. I can't see over the heads of those who grew up after they went to a market economy.

^That.
I'm a Pisces, so I know.
But seriously, we know early environment effects physical and mental outcomes, and we know that at higher latitudes seasons effect environment... but as we compensate with technology, the seasonal effect diminishes into obscurity. And fewer astrologers get the job that Nancy Reagan's did, holding sway over a Country's decisions.

 

[Shadowy Man]

The point is that any effects need not be due to gravitation specifically.

My point wasn't about gravitation specifically.

All possible influences from planets should also be possible influences from nearby massive objects such as aircraft and ships, which change their positions relative to the people they are supposedly influencing.

Unless planets have souls?

I won't bother to scrutinize your analysis, but a glance suggests you assume all forces are inverse-square-distance or worse.

Any actual influence from a planet will be from a change in force--like tides, cube of distance. (Which is why the moon beats the sun.)

why not inverse square? It’s not like the planets are always the same distance away from us. So their gravitational force will constantly be changing.

 

[Jarhyn]

It occurs to me that in the old days there probably was a considerably bigger effect from birth time. Now it's youngest/oldest of a cohort, back then people didn't eat as well during the winter. It's like what I've seen in China--I can see over the heads of those who grew up under the collectivized rule. I can't see over the heads of those who grew up after they went to a market economy.

^That.
I'm a Pisces, so I know.
But seriously, we know early environment effects physical and mental outcomes, and we know that at higher latitudes seasons effect environment... but as we compensate with technology, the seasonal effect diminishes into obscurity. And fewer astrologers get the job that Nancy Reagan's did, holding sway over a Country's decisions.

Well, astrologers were sought because ultimately, some people who attributed it to astrology actually ended up giving good advice.

Astrology, as you note, can end up being used as a pathway to making decisions on behalf of an unearned prestige... To be noted, the ability of a competent astrologer to track where the stars were, would imply other more socially applicable skills like awareness of longer time periods and patterns. To figure out the movements of the planets strict records must be kept by a culture for a time, and in that time other periodic phenomena can be observed.

At some point, to be an astrologer you had to be a pretty smart person, or at least a pretty shrewd one.

I think largely astrology has been replaced by other more masterful disciplines, but it's not strictly rotten to the core. It's more just past its best-by date.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is that any effects need not be due to gravitation specifically.

My point wasn't about gravitation specifically.

All possible influences from planets should also be possible influences from nearby massive objects such as aircraft and ships, which change their positions relative to the people they are supposedly influencing.

Unless planets have souls?

I won't bother to scrutinize your analysis, but a glance suggests you assume all forces are inverse-square-distance or worse.

Any actual influence from a planet will be from a change in force--like tides, cube of distance. (Which is why the moon beats the sun.)

why not inverse square? It’s not like the planets are always the same distance away from us. So their gravitational force will constantly be changing.

The various forces pulling on us at any given point will sum to a single vector and will be indistinguishable from other sources. Note the "any given point" part--you don't get the same vector at a different point. It's that change that we can detect. It's that change that makes the tides. It's that change that will rip apart a moon that gets too close to the planet, or a planet that gets too close to it's star (if it isn't vaporized first.) Or the astronaut who ventures too close to a neutron star or black hole. (White dwarfs are powerful enough to feel the tide but you'll go splat before it becomes a problem.)

If simple gravity was relevant we would be looking at ocean people vs plains people vs mountain people. That's the biggest change you can get with the tech of the day when astrology came about.

 

[steve_bank]

I heard about consulting astrologers for business before, where else but California.

There were probably always con artist astrologers, others may have been practical psychologists. The term today a life coach.

Michelle Saya - Business Astrologer for Soulpreneurs

Discover Michelle Saya's journey to harness the power of astrology for your business with her unique EMBODY U™ framework and step into your highest success.

michellesaya.com

The Power of Merging Astrology & Business Strategy for My Clients

Then the pandemic happened. And I saw the collective humanity go dark. I felt the pain and mass hysteria. I also saw a new uprising of ex-corporate escapees (like me!) passionately stepping into their own business forged from the foundations of their spiritual values and integrity.

That was my sign to step into service of this new paradigm level of leadership.

Today, as an intuitive business astrologer, coach and strategist, I use my signature EMBODY U™ framework incorporating my proven system of business astrology, energetics, tailored business strategy as a tool to more deeply understand my clients. I keenly understand my clients' desires, energetic blockages posing as blindspots in their business. And this is when the magic happens. We're able to clarify and envision the creation of a business foundation that's so damn supportive to their energy.

Clients start to realize they're in the driver's seat of their own life and business. What is in alignment for them is in their birthright and the universe has been supporting them this whole time.

Business Horoscope - Best Astrologer & Vastu Consultant in San Francisco | Astro Vastu Solution

Dr. Vaneet Sharma | Astro Vastu Solutions Top Business Astrologer in San Francisco CA With over 27 years of expertise, Dr. Vaneet Sharma of Astro Vatu Solutions offers comprehensive business horoscopes tailored to entrepreneurs and professionals. His deep understanding of astrology provides...

www.astrovastusolution.com

With over 27 years of expertise, Dr. Vaneet Sharma of Astro Vatu Solutions offers comprehensive business horoscopes tailored to entrepreneurs and professionals. His deep understanding of astrology provides strategic insights into business decisions, market trends, and financial opportunities. Dr. Sharma’s personalized guidance helps business owners in the Bay Area, California, navigate their entrepreneurial journeys with clarity and confidence. His expert advice empowers clients to make informed decisions, optimize their business strategies, and achieve long-term success and growth.

Cold reading has been well demonstrated. Get pepole to reveal facts about themselves without realizing it. Then feeding it back to them.

Cold reading - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cold reading is a set of techniques used by mentalists, psychics, fortune-tellers, and mediums.[1] Without prior knowledge, a practiced cold-reader can quickly obtain a great deal of information by analyzing the person's body language, age, clothing or fashion, hairstyle, gender, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, level of education, manner of speech, place of origin, etc. during a line of questioning. Cold readings commonly employ high-probability guesses, quickly picking up on signals as to whether their guesses are in the right direction or not, then emphasizing and reinforcing chance connections and quickly moving on from missed guesses. Psychologists believe that this appears to work because of the Barnum effect and due to confirmation biases within people.[2]

The Barnum effect, also called the Forer effect or, less commonly, the Barnum–Forer effect, is a common psychological phenomenon whereby individuals give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of their personality that supposedly are tailored specifically to them, yet which are in fact vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people.[1] This effect can provide a partial explanation for the widespread acceptance of some paranormal beliefs and practices, such as astrology, fortune telling, aura reading, and some types of personality tests.[1]

Psychologist Bertram Forer originally named it the "fallacy of personal validation".[2] The term "Barnum effect" was coined in 1956 by psychologist Paul Meehl in his essay "Wanted – A Good Cookbook", because he relates the vague personality descriptions used in certain "pseudo-successful" psychological tests to those given by showman P. T. Barnum.[3][4]

 

[lpetrich]

One has to be careful when calculating how much gravitational force, because one will want the difference between the force on oneself and the force on one's environment -- the tidal force. Fortunately, that is straightforward to calculate from the inverse-square law, though one has to take into account the vector nature of this force for full detail.

• F_long = 2*G*M/R^3 * L_long -- longitudinal force, along the direction to the source
• F_trans = - G*M/R^3 * L_trans -- transverse force, perpendicular to the direction to the source

F = force, G = gravitational constant, M = mass of the source, R = distance to the source, L = offset from one's reference point

One can often get G*M for celestial bodies with much more precision than how well G is known.

•  Standard gravitational parameter
• Astrodynamic Parameters
• Planetary Satellite Physical Parameters

Calculating the tidal factor G*M/R^3,

• Moon: 8.64*10^(-14) s^(-2)
• Sun: 3.96*10^(-4) s^(-21) s^(-2)
• Mercury: 6.58*10^(-21) s^(-2)
• Venus: 9.70*10^(-20) s^(-2)
• Mars: 3.60*10^(-21) s^(-2)
• Jupiter: 2.69*10^(-19) s^(-2)
• Saturn: 1.29*10^(-20) s^(-2)
• 100-kg object 1 m away, like a birthing assistant: 6.67*10^(-9) s^(-2)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Calculating the tidal factor G*M/R^3,

• Moon: 8.64*10^(-14) s^(-2)
• Sun: 3.96*10^(-4) s^(-21) s^(-2)
• Mercury: 6.58*10^(-21) s^(-2)
• Venus: 9.70*10^(-20) s^(-2)
• Mars: 3.60*10^(-21) s^(-2)
• Jupiter: 2.69*10^(-19) s^(-2)
• Saturn: 1.29*10^(-20) s^(-2)
• 100-kg object 1 m away, like a birthing assistant: 6.67*10^(-9) s^(-2)

You have some sort of error with the Sun.

And that's a pretty big birthing assistant! I didn't realize how tremendously different it was, though.

 

[bilby]

Calculating the tidal factor G*M/R^3,

• Moon: 8.64*10^(-14) s^(-2)
• Sun: 3.96*10^(-4) s^(-21) s^(-2)
• Mercury: 6.58*10^(-21) s^(-2)
• Venus: 9.70*10^(-20) s^(-2)
• Mars: 3.60*10^(-21) s^(-2)
• Jupiter: 2.69*10^(-19) s^(-2)
• Saturn: 1.29*10^(-20) s^(-2)
• 100-kg object 1 m away, like a birthing assistant: 6.67*10^(-9) s^(-2)

You have some sort of error with the Sun.

And that's a pretty big birthing assistant! I didn't realize how tremendously different it was, though.

100kg isn't a particularly large mass for an adult. Particularly not these days.

I mass ~100kg, and at 182cm tall, am not unhealthily overweight. If I get down to 90kg, I look and feel underweight.

100kg is 220lbs

The average American adult male is ~200lbs, or 91kg, and 5'9" or 175cm.

100kg is a very good approximation, particularly as 1m is a long way away for someone who might reasonably be expected to be closer.

Allowing husbands to be present in the room when their wives give birth has a greater gravitational effect on a newborn than the Sun, Moon, or planets. I wonder if astrologers have taken this late twentieth century change in social norms into account in preparing their charts.

 

[Bronzeage]

I don't know if this applies to astrology, but the test of the quality of predictions and prophecies is not whether they prove true.

The best predictions never prove true because they provide information which allows a person to change the future and thus avoid the prediction.

 

[bilby]

I don't know if this applies to astrology, but the test of the quality of predictions and prophecies is not whether they prove true.

The best predictions never prove true because they provide information which allows a person to change the future and thus avoid the prediction.

I have to say that I am still disappointed that the human race didn't wipe itself out in a global thermonuclear war between 1962 and 1991.

Everyone knew it was inevitable. And then it didn't happen.

 

[steve_bank]

Us humns naturally correlate observations and events. Animals do it to one degree or another. It is a survival mechanism.

Humans learned to correlate planting spring crops based on the angle of the Sun.

It would have been natural to correlate motions of planets and constellations with a life, a little human imagination. A need to have a meaning of life, a purpose.