The dark side of #blacklivesmatter

[Jolly_Penguin]

What argument?

The one where black people should worry about the feelings of white people while protesting state violence directed at them?

Nah.

That "argument" should be mocked, not refuted.

Claiming that someone is "whitesplainin'" is a ploy to shut down argument. Might as well call Jolly_Penguin a racist, a witch, or a poopie head. The actor who uses such ploys should be mocked.

I am not white (or black), yet I am "whitesplaining" because ksen can't register what I am saying and thinks it is just a black vs white thing. It is a tribalism thing. It is an us vs them thing. It is an empathy thing (or lack thereof), and I was addressing how to get around that dynamic. I

The goal should be to work towards ENDING racism, no? Bigotry is the issue here. So how do we intelligently address bigotry? By pushing our differences and splitting off into tribes to fight one another as each demands fairness? No. That's how you get black gay bashers and gay racists. No. Instead do it by creating empathy for one another, across racial, sexual orientation, gender, national, and other such lines. And we do that by being inclusive and pushing that we are all equal members of the same group.

Saying nothing means people die and as quiet as it's kept, I tend to value human life over the comfort level of the heartless.

I didn't say nothing. I said be inclusive. Point out what is happening, identify the black people who are being killed as our brothers and sisters in humanity, that black people are people and their lives matter too, because they are people, because they are as we are. It really isn't hard to do, and you will reach and sway far more people and draw far more empathy that way.

 

[Rhea]

Claiming that someone is "whitesplainin'" is a ploy to shut down argument. Might as well call Jolly_Penguin a racist, a witch, or a poopie head. The actor who uses such ploys should be mocked.

I am not white (or black), yet I am "whitesplaining" because ksen can't register what I am saying and thinks it is just a black vs white thing. It is a tribalism thing. It is an us vs them thing. It is an empathy thing (or lack thereof), and I was addressing how to get around that dynamic. It is apparent to me now that there is little interest here in actually solving any problem, and this is more about raging against the machine for the sake of raging against the machine.

The goal should be to work towards ENDING racism, no? Bigotry is the issue here. So how do we intelligently address bigotry? By pushing our differences and splitting off into tribes to fight one another? No. We do it by creating empathy for one another, across racial, sexual orientation, gender, national, and other such lines. And we do that by being inclusive and pushing that we are all equal members of the same group.

I replied with a serious and detailed response. So did Athena. There is obvious interest "here." Feel free to reply.

Moreover, Laughing dog said,

If white people had always been as sensitive as you seem to think,

He did not say that you were white or not white. He said that you seem to think white people have been sensitive to this problem in America. I believe it is objectively true that white people in America have not been sensitive to the truth of this serious issue. All of this remains true whether you are black, white, asian, native or Latino. Your response seems to assign much more sensitivity to American white people than they possess.

 

[Rhea]

ksen can't register what I am saying and thinks it is just a black vs white thing. It is a tribalism thing. It is an us vs them thing. It is an empathy thing (or lack thereof), and I was addressing how to get around that dynamic.

Racism against people who are Black in America

IS​

a black vs white "thing." It has been for 300 years or more.

Do you really think it is not? The Jim Crow Laws, the neighborhood redlining, the confederate flag, the vitriol spewed at our president, the sentencing disparity, the driver profiling, the disparate arrests? You don't think it was and remains a "black vs white thing"?

You think we should pretend it is NOT a white versus black "thing"?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Moreover, Laughing dog said,

If white people had always been as sensitive as you seem to think,

He did not say that you were white or not white.

It was ksen who said I was "whitesplaining", not laughing dog.

He said that you seem to think white people have been sensitive to this problem in America. I believe it is objectively true that white people in America have not been sensitive to the truth of this serious issue. All of this remains true whether you are black, white, asian, native or Latino. Your response seems to assign much more sensitivity to American white people than they possess.

First of all, "american white people" is not something you can talk about as a single entity. That itself is racism.

Secondly, perhaps re-read what I wrote? I am saying the approach matters. We have black gay bashers and gay racists because the former fights racism and the latter fights for gay rights. Neither is looking deeper, to the core issue they face in common, which is tribalism and bigotry. If we encourage them to do that, we stand a chance. If we instead drive them based on their differences, we really don't.

 

[laughing dog]

First of all, "american white people" is not something you can talk about as a single entity.

You can talk about as a general group.

That itself is racism.

Nonsense.

Secondly, perhaps re-read what I wrote? I am saying the approach matters. We have black gay bashers and gay racists because the former fights racism and the latter fights for gay rights.

Ironically, you talk abut "gay racists" and "black gay bashers" as single groups.

Neither is looking deeper, to the core issue they face in common, which is tribalism and bigotry. If we encourage them to do that, we stand a chance. If we instead drive them based on their differences, we really don't.

There is nothing wrong with the approach of trying to address issues piecemeal until the whole is complete.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

ksen can't register what I am saying and thinks it is just a black vs white thing. It is a tribalism thing. It is an us vs them thing. It is an empathy thing (or lack thereof), and I was addressing how to get around that dynamic.

Racism against people who are Black in America

IS​

a black vs white "thing." It has been for 300 years or more.

It is bigger than that. It is not just a black vs white thing. Keep seeing it only like that and you'll never fix it. Dig deeper and you may have a chance. It is not an innate trait of white people that they must hate black people or see them as inferior.

 

[Toni]

Claiming that someone is "whitesplainin'" is a ploy to shut down argument. Might as well call Jolly_Penguin a racist, a witch, or a poopie head. The actor who uses such ploys should be mocked.

I am not white (or black), yet I am "whitesplaining" because ksen can't register what I am saying and thinks it is just a black vs white thing. It is a tribalism thing. It is an us vs them thing. It is an empathy thing (or lack thereof), and I was addressing how to get around that dynamic. It is apparent to me now that there is little interest here in actually solving any problem, and this is more about raging against the machine for the sake of raging against the machine.

The goal should be to work towards ENDING racism, no? Bigotry is the issue here. So how do we intelligently address bigotry? By pushing our differences and splitting off into tribes to fight one another? No. We do it by creating empathy for one another, across racial, sexual orientation, gender, national, and other such lines. And we do that by being inclusive and pushing that we are all equal members of the same group.

With all due respect, your solution to racism pretty often seems to be a)act white b)pretend that there isn't significant negative racism against blacks--and Native Americans and only slightly less racism against Hispanics and anybody who might be taken as Muslim, regardless of their actual religious or ethnic heritage.

The fact is that while I live in a state that is widely regarded as 'progressive,' there is significant racism and a very, very significant difference in achievement/outcomes to use the new parlance, in K-12 education where my state is one has one of the worst achievement gaps in the nation. And I understand it. I've watched it in my own tiny little corner of the state where it's about 98% white. There is a general assumption that anyone with dark skin has a lot of ground to make up, is behind academically, and that we really cannot expect too much out of 'them.' Except that they will probably just end up being criminals. Honestly, these are things I have heard. From teachers. And a lot worse from parents. There is just a general expectation of bad behavior/low achievement/lack of preparedness. And it is assumed of any child who moves into the school district, no matter their color. Although it is easier to get around if they moved from another part of the state.

And we are a progressive state.

 

[laughing dog]

It is bigger than that. It is not just a black vs white thing. Keep seeing it only like that and you'll never fix it. Dig deeper and you may have a chance. It is not an innate trait of white people that they must hate black people or see them as inferior.

No, it is not an innate trait. But that has nothing to do with white racism against blacks not being a white vs black thing.

 

[RavenSky]

I thought the problem with "black lives matter" was that it seems to imply black lives matter, and not all lives, widening instead of narrowing the race divide. They could at least have put it "black lives matter too".

And use up 3 extra characters on twitter?

 

[ksen]

I thought the problem with "black lives matter" was that it seems to imply black lives matter

In some quarters that is seen as one of the problems with #blacklivesmatter.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

With all due respect, your solution to racism pretty often seems to be a)act white b)pretend that there isn't significant negative racism against blacks--and Native Americans and only slightly less racism against Hispanics and anybody who might be taken as Muslim, regardless of their actual religious or ethnic heritage.

The fact is that while I live in a state that is widely regarded as 'progressive,' there is significant racism and a very, very significant difference in achievement/outcomes to use the new parlance, in K-12 education where my state is one has one of the worst achievement gaps in the nation. And I understand it. I've watched it in my own tiny little corner of the state where it's about 98% white. There is a general assumption that anyone with dark skin has a lot of ground to make up, is behind academically, and that we really cannot expect too much out of 'them.' Except that they will probably just end up being criminals. Honestly, these are things I have heard. From teachers. And a lot worse from parents. There is just a general expectation of bad behavior/low achievement/lack of preparedness. And it is assumed of any child who moves into the school district, no matter their color. Although it is easier to get around if they moved from another part of the state.

You seemed to be speaking of a racism problem, but then you said it is true of any child who moves into the school district, no matter of their colour. Which is it?

I do agree that racism is real and a prevalent problem. I have been subjected to it myself on more than one occasion. I also see the deeper issue of what is going on with it. It isn't so different from homophobia, misogyny, and other forms of bigotry. It operates on tribalism. The one that is different is seen as worse, given stereotypes, abused and hated. It doesn't help for us to push those stereotypes further and divide ourselves to fight between these artificial groupings. That makes the problem worse, not better.

And no, I am not saying "act white". I find that a pretty rude accusation actually, given that I just told you I am not white. If I don't hate on white people that makes me a traitor to my "race"? Recognizing we are all humans and that we should all see each other as brothers and sisters in humanity is not "acting white". It is acting human.

 

[ksen]

Recognizing we are all humans and that we should all see each other as brothers and sisters in humanity is not "acting white".

No, but it is a bit Pollyannaish

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I thought the problem with "black lives matter" was that it seems to imply black lives matter

In some quarters that is seen as one of the problems with #blacklivesmatter.

Wow, that's a really mature way to quote what I wrote and make it say the opposite of what I actually said. Bravo!

 

[Toni]

With all due respect, your solution to racism pretty often seems to be a)act white b)pretend that there isn't significant negative racism against blacks--and Native Americans and only slightly less racism against Hispanics and anybody who might be taken as Muslim, regardless of their actual religious or ethnic heritage.

The fact is that while I live in a state that is widely regarded as 'progressive,' there is significant racism and a very, very significant difference in achievement/outcomes to use the new parlance, in K-12 education where my state is one has one of the worst achievement gaps in the nation. And I understand it. I've watched it in my own tiny little corner of the state where it's about 98% white. There is a general assumption that anyone with dark skin has a lot of ground to make up, is behind academically, and that we really cannot expect too much out of 'them.' Except that they will probably just end up being criminals. Honestly, these are things I have heard. From teachers. And a lot worse from parents. There is just a general expectation of bad behavior/low achievement/lack of preparedness. And it is assumed of any child who moves into the school district, no matter their color. Although it is easier to get around if they moved from another part of the state.

You seemed to be speaking of a racism problem, but then you said it is true of any child who moves into the school district, no matter of their colour. Which is it?

It's tremendously worse if you are a person of any color than white. Tremendously. The other part--not being 'from here' I wouldn't have maybe noticed if we had not moved into this community with kids already born. After 15-20 years, you are more or less accepted. If you are white.

I do agree that racism is real and a prevalent problem. I have been subjected to it myself on more than one occasion. I also see the deeper issue of what is going on with it. It isn't so different from homophobia, misogyny, and other forms of bigotry. It operates on tribalism. The one that is different is seen as worse, given stereotypes, abused and hated. It doesn't help for us to push those stereotypes further and divide ourselves to fight between these artificial groupings. That makes the problem worse, not better.

And no, I am not saying "act white". I find that a pretty rude accusation actually, given that I just told you I am not white. If I don't hate on white people that makes me a traitor to my "race"? Recognizing we are all humans and that we should all see each other as brothers and sisters in humanity is not "acting white". It is acting human.

I don't know how you act or how closely you emulate predominate white culture. I wasn't trying to be offensive but it is not hard to notice that in order to be seen as 'one of the good ones' it is best to adopt the cultural norms as seen by the dominate culture and only display your ethnicity on certain holidays. Or through cuisine.

 

[Rhea]

Racism against people who are Black in America

IS​

a black vs white "thing." It has been for 300 years or more.

It is bigger than that. It is not just a black vs white thing. Keep seeing it only like that and you'll never fix it. Dig deeper and you may have a chance. It is not an innate trait of white people that they must hate black people or see them as inferior.

As I said above, there is a need for many white Americans to "discover" that people who are black have been discriminated against because they were black, and not 200 years ago, but TODAY. White folks around here need to discover that.

I, too, live in a "progressive" state. And yet I hear the white workmen in my house react with amazement when a truck pulls up with a delivery efficiently offloaded by a man who is black. As the truck drives away, they say, "wow, you don't see that very often, a hard working black man." WTF!? Yes you do! What the hell is that!

People like THAT need to be talked to _about_ black because if you say "all lives matter" to people like them, they think, "of course they do," and do not include any black people in that thought.

 

[ksen]

In some quarters that is seen as one of the problems with #blacklivesmatter.

Wow, that's a really mature way to quote what I wrote and make it say the opposite of what I actually said. Bravo!

If you say so.

Of course I wasn't making "you" say anything. I was highlighting part of your quote and saying that some people do agree with that part. I never said or implied that you agreed with that part.

 

[ksen]

It is bigger than that. It is not just a black vs white thing. Keep seeing it only like that and you'll never fix it. Dig deeper and you may have a chance. It is not an innate trait of white people that they must hate black people or see them as inferior.

As I said above, there is a need for many white Americans to "discover" that people who are black have been discriminated against because they were black, and not 200 years ago, but TODAY. White folks around here need to discover that.

I, too, live in a "progressive" state. And yet I hear the white workmen in my house react with amazement when a truck pulls up with a delivery efficiently offloaded by a man who is black. As the truck drives away, they say, "wow, you don't see that very often, a hard working black man." WTF!? Yes you do! What the hell is that!

People like THAT need to be talked to _about_ black because if you say "all lives matter" to people like them, they think, "of course they do," and do not include any black people in that thought.

#alldeliverypeopleworkhard

 

[Rhea]

In some quarters that is seen as one of the problems with #blacklivesmatter.

Wow, that's a really mature way to quote what I wrote and make it say the opposite of what I actually said. Bravo!

It's an accurate truth that some people in America have a problem with #BlackLivesMatter because they do not, actually DO NOT want to be told that black lives do matter. They want to continue thinking black lives do NOT matter. These people exist.

 

[Toni]

Wow, that's a really mature way to quote what I wrote and make it say the opposite of what I actually said. Bravo!

It's an accurate truth that some people in America have a problem with #BlackLivesMatter because they do not, actually DO NOT want to be told that black lives do matter. They want to continue thinking black lives do NOT matter. These people exist.

Yep. And plenty who believe that blacks have the same experiences and the same opportunities as whites and if they don't it's their own fault for not acting white in a world that wont' let them forget for one second that they are not white.

Because white is right.

 

[Trausti]

Wow, that's a really mature way to quote what I wrote and make it say the opposite of what I actually said. Bravo!

It's an accurate truth that some people in America have a problem with #BlackLivesMatter because they do not, actually DO NOT want to be told that black lives do matter. They want to continue thinking black lives do NOT matter. These people exist.

It's an accurate truth that some people in America have a problem with #AllLivesMatter because they do not, actually DO NOT want to be told that all lives matter. They want to continue thinking all lives do NOT matter. These people exist.

Sweeping generalizations are fun for the whole family!