The death of Tyre Nichols

[Patooka]

The police officers who jumped this Tyre fellow were promptly charged with murder. What else do you want?

Holy fuck! I didn't think weeding out psychopaths who indiscriminately execute citizens was such a difficult task. I look forward to the day where you 'splain why that is difficult.

 

[marc]

What that graph doesn't show is all the people killed by other criminals because the police backed off due to the BLM protests. Hint: It's many, many times the number that were "saved" by BLM. (The effect is only seen in areas that saw substantial BLM protest activity.)

View attachment 42028

Just because you didn't want to believe it before doesn't make it go away.

Just because you want to believe it doesn't make it true.

Hand waving when asked to support a claim pretty much shows that a belief is all you got.

 

[Oleg]

The police officers who jumped this Tyre fellow were promptly charged with murder. What else do you want?

Holy fuck! I didn't think weeding out psychopaths who indiscriminately execute citizens was such a difficult task. I look forward to the day where you 'splain why that is difficult.

The answer is to return to IQ tests; but me suspects some people might not like that.

 

[Toni]

For those who were asking what was meant by the over militarizing of police forces, here’s an article that discusses the death of the activist Derec referenced as well as why there were protests:

A very biased article, not to mention confusing given you don't know how many people the author is talking about.

a forested park was to be destroyed in order to provide a training space for police,

That is wrong. The 85 acres that are to become the training facility are the site of the former prison farm. It is overgrown by trees, sure, but there are still structures there and even the façade of the old Carnegie public library (shame that was destroyed btw.) was dumped there.

As you can see, hardly a virgin forest.
The forested Intrenchment Creek Park is adjacent to it, and it is also threatened by development, but not by Atlanta police. There is also the issue of the South River Forest further south, which also has nothing to do with the training facility.

You can look at the map of the area yourself. And this article, even if it is too favorable to the activists, gives a good overview of the complexities of the issue and that the forested area is much bigger than the area of the prison farm that would be taken for the training facility.

including ding building a mock village to train for raids and police chases. And of course a firing range.

Normal parts of a training facility, which will btw. also train firefighters.

Next to a black neighborhood.

I know this area well. It is a mostly industrial area, although there are some private houses nearby. It is one of the better areas to build a facility like that if you do not want to disturb residential areas. And why should the race of the people matter anyway? Note that some residents have reported that their property has been damaged/vandalized by the activists as well.

“They wrote ‘Fuck Cop City’ on our community fence,” said Alison Clark, who lives in a neighborhood adjacent to the forest. “They tore up the cameras at the entrance to our neighborhood. We, as homeowners, paid for those. Every time someone comes near the land, including the rightful owners or the city, these bad actors light a fire or damage vehicles.”

Activists had been advocating for retaining the trees which were to be raised, in order to help prevent flooding. The Cop City was being funded largely by private corporations.

You are pretending that all of the wooded area would be destroyed by the training facility, but it would only affect 85 acres. Take it up instead with DeKalb county for selling the park itself to some film mogul. And why is private investment a bad thing exactly?

I agree that it is a shame that the old public library was destroyed. I love old buildings.

I disagree that 85 acres is insignificant. Given its location, it really could be important for flood mitigation. A large city such as Atlanta really does need all the parks and green spaces it can get. Not only does it improve air quality but also quality of life for everyone. As quality of life goes up, criminal activity decreases.

No, building 'villages' so that cops can learn to conduct raids is NOT normal police training. It IS military training. More police departments are limiting police chases to violent felony suspects due to the danger to the public of such chases.

PBS is considered the most reliable, most trusted, least biased news source. Maybe quit watching Fox?

Before you start: I rarely watch broadcast news and when I do, it is almost always on PBS. I am not a fan of bias on either the left or the right.

 

[Oleg]

What that graph doesn't show is all the people killed by other criminals because the police backed off due to the BLM protests. Hint: It's many, many times the number that were "saved" by BLM. (The effect is only seen in areas that saw substantial BLM protest activity.)

View attachment 42028

Just because you didn't want to believe it before doesn't make it go away.

Just because you want to believe it doesn't make it true.

Hand waving when asked to support a claim pretty much shows that a belief is all you got.

https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/8949-179jrss831pdf

Summary. Research demonstrates that police reduce crime. We study this question by using a natural experiment in which a private university increased the number of police patrols within an arbitrarily defined geographic boundary. Capitalizing on the discontinuity in patrols at the boundary, we estimate that the extra police decreased crime in adjacent city blocks by 43–73%. Our results are consistent with findings from prior work that used other kinds of natural experiment. The paper demonstrates the utility of the geographic regression discontinuity design for estimating the effects of extra public or private services on a variety of outcomes.

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w27324/w27324.pdf

This paper provides the first empirical examination of the impact of federal and state "Pattern-orPractice" investigations on crime and policing. For investigations that were not preceded by "viral" incidents of deadly force, investigations, on average, led to a statistically significant reduction in homicides and total crime. In stark contrast, all investigations that were preceded by "viral" incidents of deadly force have led to a large and statistically significant increase in homicides and total crime. We estimate that these investigations caused almost 900 excess homicides and almost 34,000 excess felonies. The leading hypothesis for why these investigations increase homicides and total crime is an abrupt change in the quantity of policing activity. In Chicago, the number of police-civilian interactions decreased by almost 90% in the month after the investigation was announced. In Riverside CA, interactions decreased 54%. In St. Louis, self-initiated police activities declined by 46%. Other theories we test such as changes in community trust or the aggressiveness of consent decrees associated with investigations -- all contradict the data in important ways.

 

[Tigers!]

The police officers who jumped this Tyre fellow were promptly charged with murder. What else do you want?

Holy fuck! I didn't think weeding out psychopaths who indiscriminately execute citizens was such a difficult task. I look forward to the day where you 'splain why that is difficult.

Trouble is you do not know that they are psychopaths until they do something. Then it is to late.
It is extraordinary how many people think that somehow such people have a look in the eyes or tone in their voice that gives then away but that is not true.
I was the last phone tech at the notorious HM Pentridge Prison (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Prison_Pentridge) in Melbourne before it closed. I spent much time with prisoners incl. some the the worst murderers, rapists, paedophiles etc. that Australia ever produced.
You could have clothed any of them in a suit, sent them down Sydney Rd, Coburg, into the shopping strip and nobody would look at them twice.
Weeding out sociopaths, psychopaths before hand is very difficult.

 

[Patooka]

I was the last phone tech at the notorious HM Pentridge Prison (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Prison_Pentridge) in Melbourne before it closed. I spent much time with prisoners incl. some the the worst murderers, rapists, paedophiles etc. that Australia ever produced.

Chopper Read was at Pentridge for a while. It's fair to say that man stood out in any crowd. For some people it's pretty obvious they should not be in law enforcement. One issue in the US is they don't even perform the most basic of background checks. There's even a name for such cops - Gypsy cops.

 

[laughing dog]

The police officers who jumped this Tyre fellow were promptly charged with murder. What else do you want?

Holy fuck! I didn't think weeding out psychopaths who indiscriminately execute citizens was such a difficult task. I look forward to the day where you 'splain why that is difficult.

The answer is to return to IQ tests; but me suspects some people might not like that.

IQ tests attempt to measure intelligence not psychoses.

 

[Oleg]

The police officers who jumped this Tyre fellow were promptly charged with murder. What else do you want?

Holy fuck! I didn't think weeding out psychopaths who indiscriminately execute citizens was such a difficult task. I look forward to the day where you 'splain why that is difficult.

The answer is to return to IQ tests; but me suspects some people might not like that.

IQ tests attempt to measure intelligence not psychoses.

There’s a robust relationship between IQ and criminal behavior.

Intelligence and Crime - Measuring The Size Of The Iq-crime Correlation

 

[laughing dog]

The police officers who jumped this Tyre fellow were promptly charged with murder. What else do you want?

Holy fuck! I didn't think weeding out psychopaths who indiscriminately execute citizens was such a difficult task. I look forward to the day where you 'splain why that is difficult.

The answer is to return to IQ tests; but me suspects some people might not like that.

IQ tests attempt to measure intelligence not psychoses.

There’s a robust relationship between IQ and criminal behavior.

Intelligence and Crime - Measuring The Size Of The Iq-crime Correlation

First, you clearly have no idea about statistics. Correlation coefficients are crude measures that do not permit for allowance of other factors. More importantly, the correlation coefficients reported in your link are less than 0.2 in absolute value which is neither a strong nor robust result. Attempts to correlate IQ and criminal behavior typically use criminals who are caught (and maybe found guilty). That is a biased sample because really smart criminals do not get caught.

Second, psychopaths may or may not be criminals.

 

[Oleg]

The police officers who jumped this Tyre fellow were promptly charged with murder. What else do you want?

Holy fuck! I didn't think weeding out psychopaths who indiscriminately execute citizens was such a difficult task. I look forward to the day where you 'splain why that is difficult.

The answer is to return to IQ tests; but me suspects some people might not like that.

IQ tests attempt to measure intelligence not psychoses.

There’s a robust relationship between IQ and criminal behavior.

Intelligence and Crime - Measuring The Size Of The Iq-crime Correlation

First, you clearly have no idea about statistics. Correlation coefficients are crude measures that do not permit for allowance of other factors. More importantly, the correlation coefficients reported in your link are less than 0.2 in absolute value which is neither a strong nor robust result. Attempts to correlate IQ and criminal behavior typically use criminals who are caught (and maybe found guilty). That is a biased sample because really smart criminals do not get caught.

Second, psychopaths may or may not be criminals.

All well and good, but when you drop your standards down be surprised at what you get.

 

[laughing dog]

The police officers who jumped this Tyre fellow were promptly charged with murder. What else do you want?

Holy fuck! I didn't think weeding out psychopaths who indiscriminately execute citizens was such a difficult task. I look forward to the day where you 'splain why that is difficult.

The answer is to return to IQ tests; but me suspects some people might not like that.

IQ tests attempt to measure intelligence not psychoses.

There’s a robust relationship between IQ and criminal behavior.

Intelligence and Crime - Measuring The Size Of The Iq-crime Correlation

First, you clearly have no idea about statistics. Correlation coefficients are crude measures that do not permit for allowance of other factors. More importantly, the correlation coefficients reported in your link are less than 0.2 in absolute value which is neither a strong nor robust result. Attempts to correlate IQ and criminal behavior typically use criminals who are caught (and maybe found guilty). That is a biased sample because really smart criminals do not get caught.

Second, psychopaths may or may not be criminals.

All well and good, but when you drop your standards down be surprised at what you get.

Like your responses here?

 

[Oleg]

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

There’s a robust relationship weak correlation between IQ and criminal behavior.

Intelligence and Crime - Measuring The Size Of The Iq-crime Correlation

FIFY.

Here are some thoughts:
1. Smarter people have a higher probability of not getting caught.
2. Smarter people know better than to self-report significant crimes in a survey.
3. It could be that some small percent of criminals have brain problems resulting in behavioral disorders and other issues that drag the whole average down.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Before getting to an answer, there are some implicit things in the question. For example, is there really a white part of town and a black part of town? Why is that?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What that graph doesn't show is all the people killed by other criminals because the police backed off due to the BLM protests. Hint: It's many, many times the number that were "saved" by BLM. (The effect is only seen in areas that saw substantial BLM protest activity.)

Do you have actual data on this that carefully distinguishes between all possible influences on killings that were preventable by the police? If not, you are substituting your opinion for fact.

How about reasonable standards? We don't know what murders were preventable. What we do know is that murders shot up in BLM protest cities, but not elsewhere. We aren't going to know about each case, we can see the pattern. I presented evidence when the study came out, you rejecting data you don't like doesn't make it go away.

Correlation is not causation***. I am holding you to same standard you hold all studies that show discrimination- you have butkis unless you control for all the relevant influences.

But using basic logic, even if murders went up in BLM protest cities, that does not mean any of them were preventable.


*** edited thanks to the catch by Toni.

Got an alternative mechanism to suggest besides the obvious one that the cops were less proactive?

 

[laughing dog]

What that graph doesn't show is all the people killed by other criminals because the police backed off due to the BLM protests. Hint: It's many, many times the number that were "saved" by BLM. (The effect is only seen in areas that saw substantial BLM protest activity.)

Do you have actual data on this that carefully distinguishes between all possible influences on killings that were preventable by the police? If not, you are substituting your opinion for fact.

How about reasonable standards? We don't know what murders were preventable. What we do know is that murders shot up in BLM protest cities, but not elsewhere. We aren't going to know about each case, we can see the pattern. I presented evidence when the study came out, you rejecting data you don't like doesn't make it go away.

Correlation is not causation***. I am holding you to same standard you hold all studies that show discrimination- you have butkis unless you control for all the relevant influences.

But using basic logic, even if murders went up in BLM protest cities, that does not mean any of them were preventable.


*** edited thanks to the catch by Toni.

Got an alternative mechanism to suggest besides the obvious one that the cops were less proactive?

You're the one making a positive hand-waved claim about preventable murders, not me. There is no reason to think police (in)activity would have prevented any of those murders.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What that graph doesn't show is all the people killed by other criminals because the police backed off due to the BLM protests. Hint: It's many, many times the number that were "saved" by BLM. (The effect is only seen in areas that saw substantial BLM protest activity.)

Do you have actual data on this that carefully distinguishes between all possible influences on killings that were preventable by the police? If not, you are substituting your opinion for fact.

How about reasonable standards? We don't know what murders were preventable. What we do know is that murders shot up in BLM protest cities, but not elsewhere. We aren't going to know about each case, we can see the pattern. I presented evidence when the study came out, you rejecting data you don't like doesn't make it go away.

Correlation is not causation***. I am holding you to same standard you hold all studies that show discrimination- you have butkis unless you control for all the relevant influences.

But using basic logic, even if murders went up in BLM protest cities, that does not mean any of them were preventable.


*** edited thanks to the catch by Toni.

Got an alternative mechanism to suggest besides the obvious one that the cops were less proactive?

You're the one making a positive hand-waved claim about preventable murders, not me. There is no reason to think police (in)activity would have prevented any of those murders.

Then why did they shoot up? And only in BLM cities, not in cities that did nothing, not in cities that did police reform not related to BLM?

 

[Derec]

I agree that it is a shame that the old public library was destroyed. I love old buildings.

Me too.

I disagree that 85 acres is insignificant. Given its location, it really could be important for flood mitigation. A large city such as Atlanta really does need all the parks and green spaces it can get.

Not sure how familiar you are with Atlanta, but we do have a lot of greenspace. We are kind of known for it.
Nevertheless, as population increases and new housing is needed, that greenspace is at risk. But not primarily due to a single training facility.
As Atlanta grows, its trademark tree canopy suffers

On a citywide scale, 85 acres is pretty insignificant. It's 0.13 sq. miles. And note that the 85 acres of "Cop City" are far less than the wooded area north of Constitution Ave.

From here, where you can get more info and more maps about the project.

Add to that the bigger South River Forest south of Constitution Ave (and bounded to the southeast and west-southwest by I-285 and commercial properties off Moreland Ave. respectively).

Browse the Google Maps link I posted above. Note also the Lake Charlotte Nature Preserve just west of Moreland Ave., within the City of Atlanta (the area we are talking about here is just outside the city, in unincorporated DeKalb County).

If you want to blame anybody for threatening most of the wooded area, blame the movie studio that wants to develop both the Intrenchment Creek Park and the South River Forest. Not the police.

Not only does it improve air quality but also quality of life for everyone. As quality of life goes up, criminal activity decreases.

I am sure it does, to a point. But as I said, Atlanta is already well known for our trees.

No, building 'villages' so that cops can learn to conduct raids is NOT normal police training.

Of course it is.
Even a city as lefty as Portland has a "scenario village" in their training facility.

It IS military training.

Not necessarily. I have noticed the trend to call everything that goes beyond officer Barney Fife as "militarized police" but that is not so.

More police departments are limiting police chases to violent felony suspects due to the danger to the public of such chases.

Even if police chases are limited, you want a officers who are well trained in conducting these chases.
As far as chases being limited, Atlanta PD instituted a "no chase" policy in 2020 (pre-riots) under Erika Shields. A year later, they had to relax it.
But again, even if limited, you want police officers to well trained to conduct them.

PBS is considered the most reliable, most trusted, least biased news source. Maybe quit watching Fox?

I do not generally watch FOX News. And while PBS does some good reporting, they also have a left-wing bias. And this article wasn't even good reporting.

But why are we discussing this on this thread? We should move it to the "Left wing terrorism" thread started for Manuel Teran and his merry men occupying the forest. I will post this there as well.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The police are trained professionals.
The public are not.
The burden of behavior is on the police.

This is a thread about Tyre Nichols.

Other murders, manslaughters, killings, and mayhems aren't Tyre Nichols.