The DNC is the problem. Or is it?

[laughing dog]

Your honor, the man has dark skin compared to the median of the population, and so there's really no malice in simply calling him a "darkie" as an innocuous acknowledgement of that purely aesthetic difference

Doubling down on the stupid is not an effective technique of argument.

The very basis of the usage is fallacious. Just because he is from a foreign country does not impact in any way the validity of his argument.

It is non sequitur, and thus an abusive position to single him as a foreigner, ostensibly as a criticism of his argument.

No, it is not a non-sequitur because his arguments are usually based on ignorance about the USA. Nor did it imply anything about JP's skin color.

 

[Jarhyn]

The very basis of the usage is fallacious. Just because he is from a foreign country does not impact in any way the validity of his argument.

It is non sequitur, and thus an abusive position to single him as a foreigner, ostensibly as a criticism of his argument.

No, it is not a non-sequitur because his arguments are usually based on ignorance about the USA. Nor did it imply anything about JP's skin color.

... You're better than to dip into bad faith. Or I thought you were. Disappointing, to say the least.

 

[laughing dog]

The very basis of the usage is fallacious. Just because he is from a foreign country does not impact in any way the validity of his argument.

It is non sequitur, and thus an abusive position to single him as a foreigner, ostensibly as a criticism of his argument.

No, it is not a non-sequitur because his arguments are usually based on ignorance about the USA. Nor did it imply anything about JP's skin color.

... You're better than to dip into bad faith. Or I thought you were. Disappointing, to say the least.

No bad faith on my part. I'm not the one who is projecting some sort of racism on the part of Toni.

 

[Jarhyn]

... You're better than to dip into bad faith. Or I thought you were. Disappointing, to say the least.

No bad faith on my part. I'm not the one who is projecting some sort of racism on the part of Toni.

No, just general bigotry and non-sequitur. Granted what makes racism wrong is bigotry and non-sequitur.

 

[Harry Bosch]

... You're better than to dip into bad faith. Or I thought you were. Disappointing, to say the least.

No bad faith on my part. I'm not the one who is projecting some sort of racism on the part of Toni.

No, just general bigotry and non-sequitur. Granted what makes racism wrong is bigotry and non-sequitur.

Total CRAP. You and PH want to freely debate people, but the second you get uncomfortable, you start assuming and alleging racism! That's crap. It's cyber bullying. And I'll call it out each time.

The reason why Jolly being a foreigner is germaine in this thread is because he constantly advocates positions that hurt the democrats, while empowering the republicans. Why. Who knows. But at the end of the day, he doesn't have to live under Trump. He doesn't have to suffer all the issues that Americans do. He can smugly claim that he's above the fray because he's a Canadian. And while the fact that he has brown skin (while at the same time I have brown skin) has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[laughing dog]

... You're better than to dip into bad faith. Or I thought you were. Disappointing, to say the least.

No bad faith on my part. I'm not the one who is projecting some sort of racism on the part of Toni.

No, just general bigotry and non-sequitur. Granted what makes racism wrong is bigotry and non-sequitur.

I'm not the one projecting general bigotry. JP does not let his lack of knowledge about US institutions, history and social contexts prevent him from making ignorant pronouncements about the US whihc makes his foreignness relevant.

 

[Toni]

Wow @ "foreigner". Mask fucking off, Toni

I realize that reality is difficult for you to comprehend, but JP is a Canadian which makes him a foreigner.

Your honor, the man has dark skin compared to the median of the population, and so there's really no malice in simply calling him a "darkie" as an innocuous acknowledgement of that purely aesthetic difference

This is the internet. Who knows or cares what anybody looks like? As far as I know, Jolly has lighter hair, skin and eyes than I do but what difference would it make if he had the darkest —or lightest—pigmentation?

My response to him is based solely on his oft repeated premise that Canada is much more progressive than the USA (despite their royal family) and his ill informed ignorant whines about how he knows what we should do inorder to achieve Canadian nirvana. He can’t even correctly name the political parties here but thinks he knows US politics.

 

[Jarhyn]

No, just general bigotry and non-sequitur. Granted what makes racism wrong is bigotry and non-sequitur.

Total CRAP. You and PH want to freely debate people, but the second you get uncomfortable, you start assuming and alleging racism! That's crap. It's cyber bullying. And I'll call it out each time.

The reason why Jolly being a foreigner is germaine in this thread is because he constantly advocates positions that hurt the democrats, while empowering the republicans. Why. Who knows. But at the end of the day, he doesn't have to live under Trump. He doesn't have to suffer all the issues that Americans do. He can smugly claim that he's above the fray because he's a Canadian. And while the fact that he has brown skin (while at the same time I have brown skin) has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I didn't involve racism. I invoked the underlying common principle why racism is itself wrong.

It doesn't matter whether JP is a foreigner to the content of his post. His argument stands alone and is valid. Period.

Quit pulling non-sequitur.

I don't really care, here, in this context what else JP said. He's usually full of shit. But I'm not going to cut off my nose if Trump tells me not to and I'm not going to reject the few correct things posted by JP just because I think his arguments generally felch goat ass.

 

[Harry Bosch]

No, just general bigotry and non-sequitur. Granted what makes racism wrong is bigotry and non-sequitur.

Total CRAP. You and PH want to freely debate people, but the second you get uncomfortable, you start assuming and alleging racism! That's crap. It's cyber bullying. And I'll call it out each time.

The reason why Jolly being a foreigner is germaine in this thread is because he constantly advocates positions that hurt the democrats, while empowering the republicans. Why. Who knows. But at the end of the day, he doesn't have to live under Trump. He doesn't have to suffer all the issues that Americans do. He can smugly claim that he's above the fray because he's a Canadian. And while the fact that he has brown skin (while at the same time I have brown skin) has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I didn't involve racism. I invoked the underlying common principle why racism is itself wrong.

It doesn't matter whether JP is a foreigner to the content of his post. His argument stands alone and is valid. Period.

Quit pulling non-sequitur.

I don't really care, here, in this context what else JP said. He's usually full of shit. But I'm not going to cut off my nose if Trump tells me not to and I'm not going to reject the few correct things posted by JP just because I think his arguments generally felch goat ass.

You and PH assumed racism where none was presented. Period. In fact, it's a little bizarre that anyone would assume that all Americans are white, foreigners are "dark skinned"! I don't get it. Let's just stop with the faulty assumptions and debate the issues on their merits or lack thereof.

 

[Toni]

No, just general bigotry and non-sequitur. Granted what makes racism wrong is bigotry and non-sequitur.

Total CRAP. You and PH want to freely debate people, but the second you get uncomfortable, you start assuming and alleging racism! That's crap. It's cyber bullying. And I'll call it out each time.

The reason why Jolly being a foreigner is germaine in this thread is because he constantly advocates positions that hurt the democrats, while empowering the republicans. Why. Who knows. But at the end of the day, he doesn't have to live under Trump. He doesn't have to suffer all the issues that Americans do. He can smugly claim that he's above the fray because he's a Canadian. And while the fact that he has brown skin (while at the same time I have brown skin) has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I didn't involve racism. I invoked the underlying common principle why racism is itself wrong.

It doesn't matter whether JP is a foreigner to the content of his post. His argument stands alone and is valid. Period.

Quit pulling non-sequitur.

I don't really care, here, in this context what else JP said. He's usually full of shit. But I'm not going to cut off my nose if Trump tells me not to and I'm not going to reject the few correct things posted by JP just because I think his arguments generally felch goat ass.

I disagree about whether it matters or not if JP is a foreigner, not because Canadians or the British or European or Australian or wherever posters don't have something valuable to add to this or any other discussion on this board. I've asked questions about how health care works in other countries because I'm curious about how certain situations are handled. I know how I think that single payer health care should work in the US and I know what my fears about single payer health care based upon my involvement in health care as well as dealing with older parents and some issues that have come up from time to time with regards to Medicare rules that are sometimes draconian and not in the patient's best interests (different rant altogether).

JP doesn't offer us views of what life is like in Canada. He lectures us about how we should conduct our political processes without actually knowing or understanding the political process in this country--and he talks as though he is a participant in our elections. Fine if he is an American but if he's not, then he needs to quit inserting himself personally into discussions about US elections. Offer his points of view, his opinions, etc.: sure. Start throwing we around like he is an actual participant? No. Lecturing us in ill informed ways? Fine but I'm calling him out on it and fine if he isn't interested in making any actual points.

 

[Toni]

Bernie's plan is zero at the point of service. That's he's still calling it Medicare is a feature, not a bug.

Don;'t get me wrong - I **LIKE** $0@POS, but it's not what medicare is.
I get that it's easy for Bernie to say that to make a nifty slogan and have people not notice that he needs to write a new plan, but he does need to write a new plan if he wants to give us what we want - $0@POS

Which part of the bill that he authored and other candidates (Harris, Warren, etc.) co-signed includes payment at the point of service for medical care?

HE authored?

 

[Toni]

Bernie's plan is zero at the point of service. That's he's still calling it Medicare is a feature, not a bug.

Don;'t get me wrong - I **LIKE** $0@POS, but it's not what medicare is.
I get that it's easy for Bernie to say that to make a nifty slogan and have people not notice that he needs to write a new plan, but he does need to write a new plan if he wants to give us what we want - $0@POS

There are several countries that call their UHC Medicare, Australia for one. What it's called is the least of the issues.

Yeah, but I've dealt with US Medicare here enough that I get really nervous about Medicare for All.

 

[Toni]

Wow @ "foreigner". Mask fucking off, Toni

I realize that reality is difficult for you to comprehend, but JP is a Canadian which makes him a foreigner.

Your honor, the man has dark skin compared to the median of the population, and so there's really no malice in simply calling him a "darkie" as an innocuous acknowledgement of that purely aesthetic difference

Mask fucking off yourself. I am not the one equating foreigner with dark skin.
That's you, bub.

 

[Toni]

Seriously, I disagree with JP on a lot and laugh that he was a Yang Ganger, but his takes are consistently closer to what is actually happening in the country and in your dumb, inneffective opposition party than anything Toni or Jimmy has to say. Calling him out on being a fOrEiGnEr as if we don't all have access to the same information and the same 24-hour coverage of this shitshow is petty and vindictive

But they aren't. He is honestly not well informed about a lot of things with regards to the US political system.

You simply agree with his views re: Sanders. And then you hope to burn the place down.

We get it. You're an anarchist and edgy and shit. And Jolly's willing to risk any skin that isn't his own.

Trust me: we get it.

 

[Toni]

Your honor, the man has dark skin compared to the median of the population, and so there's really no malice in simply calling him a "darkie" as an innocuous acknowledgement of that purely aesthetic difference

I do have dark skin. Almond shaped eyes too. I didn't personally take credit for my country's superior health care system. I said I have it and have enjoyed it for decades and that I would like the same for the rest of you. I even wrote that if The US surpasses Canada and get dental and pharmacare that the US will be more enlightened than Canada. Nor is it I that introduced the term "enlightened". That was also Toni in another lame straw man attack. Lame straw man attacks is all these conservatives have when they full well know they have zero points on the issues.

Gee. I'm an American and I DO have dental coverage as well as some coverage for eye exams/corrective lenses, coverage for surgery to preserve or restore eyesight and yep, most prescriptions have a low to zero co-pay under the coverage that I have.

And guess what? Since I decided to 'retire' early, my coverage now is not as good as it was previously. So pardon me if I'm not ready to be thrilled to embrace the lower coverage I would get in Canada. Or the lower coverage I will get under Medicare.

Yes, I'm extremely fortunate. Yes, I think that EVERY single person should have the same level of health coverage I have enjoyed--or better.

Guess what? When we are Medicare eligible, our health care coverage will be less good and will have some nasty limits on it.

THAT is one reason that I worry about 'Medicare for All.' And I don't even need to worry about coverage for prenatal, postnatal, childbirth or birth control. Hospitals didn't kick me out 24 hrs. post partum like they do now. Hell, we're just trying to keep coverage for screenings for breast cancer.

Nobody but NO. BODY gives a fuck about the shape or color of your eyes, skin or hair.

 

[Rhea]

Interesting. So whose plan comes closest to the ideal that you're advocating?

You already know this. I've already said it.

Ultimately, I want universal health care, $0@POS. I expect it will exist alongside a second tier independent system.
I don't think Bernie's the guy to deliver that, even if he authors it.

Bernie tries to stop the 2nd tier by saying that any care provider who accepts non-M4A patients will not get any M4A money. That might have consequences, tho.

But at any rate, I don't think we can get that in one feel swoop. I expect the other side will say, "I'd rather burn it down than accept socialized medicine!" And act on that.

But I do think they will compromise. And once the camel's nose is under the tent, the next step will be much more progressive.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

No, just general bigotry and non-sequitur. Granted what makes racism wrong is bigotry and non-sequitur.

I'm not the one projecting general bigotry. JP does not let his lack of knowledge about US institutions, history and social contexts prevent him from making ignorant pronouncements about the US whihc makes his foreignness relevant.

All this smattering about my lack of knowledge. And yet the only basis of such lack of knowledge is that I have said things that disagree with you and your fellow conservative Democrats and Republicans. And yes, I could indeed be quite ignorant of your political system, and so could you. But that's entirely irrelevant, as I don't claim any superior knowledge. And none of this does or should prevent me from supporting your people striving for more progressive policies.

Or let me put this in terms of your own politics: You live in a shit hole country (as your president would put it). I do live in a country that has better for its people. You yourself may not deserve or want better, you may be blinded by learned helplesness, but your fellow citizens deserve better. And I support them in that struggle.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Gee. I'm an American and I DO have dental coverage as well as some coverage for eye exams/corrective lenses, coverage for surgery to preserve or restore eyesight and yep, most prescriptions have a low to zero co-pay under the coverage that I have.

Because of your privilege. Do all of your people have that coverage? Free at the point of service? Paid for by society at large? No. You don't. You are living in a backwards "shit hole" (to use your president's term) country right now in this regard. It doesn't have to stay that way. You COULD have that dental care, eye care and phamacare universal for all your people. You could also have UBI. And if you did then you would be living in a place BETTER than where I do. It would be my country that was lagging behind on these social issues.

But instead of pushing to make that happen and backing the progressive people within your country who push for it, you stand in their way, wallowing in learned helplessness and don't think it possible because of the political climate that you and your fellow citizens have voted into being.

And guess what? Since I decided to 'retire' early, my coverage now is not as good as it was previously. So pardon me if I'm not ready to be thrilled to embrace the lower coverage I would get in Canada. Or the lower coverage I will get under Medicare.

Spoken like a true and privileged conservative. Fuck the rest, you've got yours eh? How horrible it would be if you didn't have your high end everything, and if those resource were instead used to lift up everyone in need, to allow them mere survival and freedom from bankruptcy.

Yes, universal single payer costs more. You will save quite a bit of money by cutting out the for profit insurance companies that have a profit motive to deny you care. But yes, it will end up costing more overall because you will actually cover all of your people rather than striking fear into them preventing them from visiting the hospital when they should be, in fear of bankruptcy.

Yes, your taxes will go up a little. It is a small price to pay to not have to live in society that disregards so many of its people not as privileged as you. You don't have to live in a "shit hole" country, Toni. You are the richest nation on the planet, and have enough democracy to empower your people to change things. You can do much much better.

 

[Toni]

Gee. I'm an American and I DO have dental coverage as well as some coverage for eye exams/corrective lenses, coverage for surgery to preserve or restore eyesight and yep, most prescriptions have a low to zero co-pay under the coverage that I have.

Because of your privilege. Do all of your people have that coverage? Free at the point of service? Paid for by society at large? No. You don't. You are living in a backwards shit hole country right now in this regard. It doesn't have to stay that way. You COULD have that dental care, eye care and phamacare universal for all your people. You could also have UBI. And if you did then you would be living in a place BETTER than where I do. It would be my country that was lagging behind on these social issues. Why don't you want that? Because you wallow in learned helplessness and don't think it possible because of the political climate that you and your fellow citizens have voted into being.

And guess what? Since I decided to 'retire' early, my coverage now is not as good as it was previously. So pardon me if I'm not ready to be thrilled to embrace the lower coverage I would get in Canada. Or the lower coverage I will get under Medicare.

Spoken like a true and privileged conservative. Fuck the rest, you've got yours eh? How horrible if you didn't have your high end health care in order to lift up everyone else to allow them mere survival and freedom from bankruptcy.

Yes, universal single payer costs more. You will save quite a bit of money by cutting out the for profit insurance companies that have a profit motive to deny you care. But yes, it will end up costing more overall because you will actually cover all of your people rather than striking fear into them preventing them from visiting the hospital when they should be in fear of bankruptcy.

Yes, your taxes will go up a little. It is a small price to pay to not have to live in society that disregards so many of its people not as privileged as you.

Right. That’s why I wrote—as I’ve written and spoken before, many times, that I think that EVERYONE should have the same level of health care coverage that I enjoy or BETTER.

Yes, you conveniently clipped that out of the post you’ve partially quoted because it doesn’t serve your deliberately false narrative.

We see you. Very clearly.

 

[Harry Bosch]

No, just general bigotry and non-sequitur. Granted what makes racism wrong is bigotry and non-sequitur.

I'm not the one projecting general bigotry. JP does not let his lack of knowledge about US institutions, history and social contexts prevent him from making ignorant pronouncements about the US whihc makes his foreignness relevant.

All this smattering about my lack of knowledge. And yet the only basis of such lack of knowledge is that I have said things that disagree with you and your fellow conservative Democrats and Republicans. And yes, I could indeed be quite ignorant of your political system, and so could you. But that's entirely irrelevant, as I don't claim any superior knowledge. And none of this does or should prevent me from supporting your people striving for more progressive policies.

Or let me put this in terms of your own politics: You live in a shit hole country (as your president would put it). I do live in a country that has better for its people. You yourself may not deserve or want better, you may be blinded by learned helplesness, but your fellow citizens deserve better. And I support them in that struggle.

Typical Canadian humility at it's best!