The evidence strongly suggests it's the Republicans who are trying to rig the election!

[Shadowy Man]

I have a question for you. If the voting system is rigged; why don't the republicans do anything about it? First off, the allegations of voter fraud only seem to pop up when dems win; not when republicans win. But where are the republican congressional investigations? Where are the proposed republican bills to beef up election security? Stiffen crimes for those who violate campaign laws?

I’ve been told that “the Democrats have made that legally impossible through legal maneuvers.”

What can you do?

 

[bigfield]

That doesn't happen anymore mostly because no one trusts the other party and neither party can even agree what a fair election looks like. You would think electronic machines would be banned simply because they leave no paper trail. And you would think everyone should come with a drivers license or equivalent since everywhere else that would be standard. And you would also think that mail in ballots should be an exception and not the rule. But the Democrats and Republicans can't even agree to that! To the most fundamental and common sense safeguards.

Are the Republicans and Democrats cheating? Almost everyone on both sides thinks there is cheating so why not at least agree to make the system better? And it wouldn't take a lot of effort and money......just go back to exactly the way we used to vote with the same equipment because that worked.

The problem isn't with the process, it's with the MAGA crowd trying to get you to believe there's a problem.

Electronic machines have no paper trail? Around here there's a printer attached to the machine inside a sealed but clear case. It has a very long roll of paper, it prints your votes on the paper and lets you verify that what's on the paper matches what you intended. Paper ballots, however, could be switched out undetectably. The electronic w/backup system is more secure.

With all the hacking of data bases around the world, both government and private, I can understand why many would be concerned about the security, reliability, integrity of their vote. We should not blindly nor blithely dismiss such concerns.

One need not be blind to grasp that voting machines are air-gapped from the internet and can only be hacked by people with physical access to the machines.

They are therefore nowhere close to being as vulnerable as "data bases around the world", and so it would be foolish in the extreme to draw such an analogy.

Blithely dismissing concerns that are not based in reality is not only acceptable, it's highly laudable.

I used to feel the same way. Air-gapped computers are not as invulnerable as once thought. Whilst the attack vectors are in their early stages I would not wish to be trying to keep out hackers in say, 10 years. Trying to control the outcome of an election for a G7 nation would be worth a fair bit of effort and money.

That page and the linked pages describe ways in which you can can transmit data out of an air-gapped system using various unconventional technique to broadcast a signal, but I didn't see any mention of an attack surface that can be used by a remote attacker. All of the techniques seem to assume that the attacker has somehow already compromised the system and is ready to sneak data out without using the actual network.

I think the bigger risk with voting machines is that they might be compromised in some way before they are deployed, maybe because the machine has software bugs or hardware faults, or because a bad actor was able to add malware while the machine was being made. Even then, it's not entirely clear how much damage a broken/compromised machine could actually do if there are scrutineers checking the machine's output. Whether an election uses pen-and-paper ballots or machine-printed ballots, the system can only be trusted as long as it is subject to constant scrutiny.

 

[Elixir]

I can’t believe that we have reasonable people here talking about electoral fraud, the risk of voting machines, and every other gossamer thread from which republicans hang their lies.
It’s ALL BULLSHIT.
I think we are doomed to a bloody authoritarian regime in the near future.
MSNBC, the supposed rock of resistance, has sold itself out. They air more Trump and his sycophants’ insane ravings than anything else, because it sells ads. But it only serves to reinforce their lies.

By our own petard we will be hung.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Sure, neither side trusts the other. However, here is the difference: republicans don't trust dems despite there being no evidence of democratic vote fraud. Dems don't trust republicans (maga) because there is evidence of voter fraud!! Do you see the difference?

You are never going to get to the evidence unless you look for it. And the Democrats have made that legally impossible through legal maneuvers

What on earth are you talking about?

He's talking about conspiracy theory 101.

I'm talking in answer to the OP. There is a big lack of trust when it comes to our voting system. And I don't have all the answers and have said as much excepting that our voting system seemed to work long ago. And even if I did have the answers, that would not matter since I'm not important. But back decades ago there was trust in the system and there was trust in each other.

There were conspiracy theories back then too.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sure, neither side trusts the other. However, here is the difference: republicans don't trust dems despite there being no evidence of democratic vote fraud. Dems don't trust republicans (maga) because there is evidence of voter fraud!! Do you see the difference?

You are never going to get to the evidence unless you look for it. And the Democrats have made that legally impossible through legal maneuvers

Of course the snipe is never found.

 

[Elixir]

There were conspiracy theories back then too.

Few people were selling them wholesale, and few were buying in bulk. Now millions are lining up to drink and bathe in the firehose of lies being pumped at high pressure by billionaires.
This is not something that has ever happened before in the USA.

And the Democrats have made that legally impossible through legal maneuvers

Great example. A total falsehood, eagerly lapped up without evidence, by a probably well-intended victim of right wing lies. The fact that he cannot identify any such legal maneuvers, while his boy remains out on bail in four jurisdictions due to legal maneuvers that can easily be identified, speaks to the willful stupidity that dominates the right wing hellscape.
And that is the hellscape that will typify the Trumpistani shithole in which we will be living.
It is probably too late to even hope for better quality assassins.
But there’s still a chance that he will succumb to the irresistible allure of Ronald McDonald.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Sure, neither side trusts the other. However, here is the difference: republicans don't trust dems despite there being no evidence of democratic vote fraud. Dems don't trust republicans (maga) because there is evidence of voter fraud!! Do you see the difference?

You are never going to get to the evidence unless you look for it. And the Democrats have made that legally impossible through legal maneuvers

The republicans control congress. And yet they can't hold hearings on this alleged voter fraud? They can investigate Hunter Biden for months and months; and yet can't investigate voter fraud? What legal maneuvers are preventing this?

 

[Elixir]

What legal maneuvers are preventing this?

Yes @RVonse

WHAT “LEGAL MANEUVERS”?

It will be a travesty if we are doomed to chase figments of trumpogenic paranoia for the duration of this Country’s existence.

 

[unapologetic]

I did not find any metal specialist who had humour..

I would recommend a rubber blade.

I’ve been told that “the Democrats have made that legally impossible through legal maneuvers.”

You need to stop watching FauxNews.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sure, neither side trusts the other. However, here is the difference: republicans don't trust dems despite there being no evidence of democratic vote fraud. Dems don't trust republicans (maga) because there is evidence of voter fraud!! Do you see the difference?

You are never going to get to the evidence unless you look for it. And the Democrats have made that legally impossible through legal maneuvers

What on earth are you talking about?

I would presume all those lawsuits that got yeeted from the courts due to a lack of any specific claims. I haven't looked into the details, I could believe they were yeeted for "lack of standing" because they made no claim of any wrong that the court could act upon. At the start of a lawsuit you must spell out what wrong was committed and why you believe that to be true. In that initial stage you do not present evidence of why, but you are expected to be able to produce evidence later. If you claim X and then when asked to prove X you say you have no evidence you're going to get sanctioned by the court. The lawsuits aren't about proving it in court, they are about pretending the Democrats are blocking their efforts to get the snipe.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm talking in answer to the OP. There is a big lack of trust when it comes to our voting system. And I don't have all the answers and have said as much excepting that our voting system seemed to work long ago. And even if I did have the answers, that would not matter since I'm not important. But back decades ago there was trust in the system and there was trust in each other. We were somehow able to come together on at least the integrity of voting. There was no name calling and telling the other side they were completely stupid.

And that's no conspiracy theory.

And if you believe that malarkey then you are uninformed and perhaps even delusional. Lots of people just like yourself so don't feel too bad.

So about half of the US (not your half though) is delusion so don't feel bad about it?? I feel very bad about it because I don't like violence and civil war. I feel bad about it because I live here.

If you don't like violence and civil war why are you supporting the party of violence and civil war?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is in everyone's best interest for anyone making a claim to present evidence of its validity. The problem is that Trump has not presented any evidence to support his claims. His supporters have gone to court in a number of cases and failed to prevail. Arizona did a hand recount and the result was confirmed.

Trump's claims have been refuted time and time again. Frankly, at this point, anyone who is unaware of those refutations is either too lazy to look them up or doesn't want to accept the overwhelming evidence that Trump's claims are false. FFS, there is ample evidence that Trump knows they are lies.

Objection: "everyone". No, it is in society's interest for anyone making a claim to present evidence of it's validity. But when you're trying to make a counterfactual claim it is not in your interest to present evidence of it.

 

[TomC]

Would it not be in everyone's best interest to calmly address what Trump claims and then dispute those claims with evidence? Perhaps in a very public forum that everyone can witness?

That's happened.
It's called "courts".

Multiple years and multiple courts.

The best vote fraud story I recall from 2020 was in Arizona, I think. Some Trumpistas delivered thousands of fraudulent votes for Biden to a polling station, intending to expose the fraud after the election. But the poll workers were suspicious. They checked the ballots, determined that they were fake, and the fraudsters were arrested. If memory serves, they were arrested before they left the building.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That doesn't happen anymore mostly because no one trusts the other party and neither party can even agree what a fair election looks like. You would think electronic machines would be banned simply because they leave no paper trail. And you would think everyone should come with a drivers license or equivalent since everywhere else that would be standard. And you would also think that mail in ballots should be an exception and not the rule. But the Democrats and Republicans can't even agree to that! To the most fundamental and common sense safeguards.

Are the Republicans and Democrats cheating? Almost everyone on both sides thinks there is cheating so why not at least agree to make the system better? And it wouldn't take a lot of effort and money......just go back to exactly the way we used to vote with the same equipment because that worked.

The problem isn't with the process, it's with the MAGA crowd trying to get you to believe there's a problem.

Electronic machines have no paper trail? Around here there's a printer attached to the machine inside a sealed but clear case. It has a very long roll of paper, it prints your votes on the paper and lets you verify that what's on the paper matches what you intended. Paper ballots, however, could be switched out undetectably. The electronic w/backup system is more secure.

With all the hacking of data bases around the world, both government and private, I can understand why many would be concerned about the security, reliability, integrity of their vote. We should not blindly nor blithely dismiss such concerns.

It's pretty hard to hack an air-gapped machine and the only cases I'm aware of involve flash drives and the like--but people aren't just plugging flash drives into voting machines. I would like to see the source code published, but that's because of possible flaws, not because I think it's hacked. (I would like to see this for any special-purpose stuff meant for legal use. Breathalyzers etc, not just voting machines.)

So far the only credible claims I have seen come down to touch screen calibration. That actually has been an issue, changing people's votes. But in an obvious way although a non-tech person likely won't be able to work around it. And note that we have seen similar issues with paper ballots--the printing being off causing the punch hole to be in the wrong place.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I used to feel the same way. Air-gapped computers are not as invulnerable as once thought. Whilst the attack vectors are in their early stages I would not wish to be trying to keep out hackers in say, 10 years. Trying to control the outcome of an election for a G7 nation would be worth a fair bit of effort and money.

Note that this is about obtaining data across an air gap, not about compromising the machine. Not exactly new--the more general case falls under TEMPEST and has been around for a long time in standards for equipment handling classified data. Note that most of the attacks that make the news involve means of untrusted programs running on the machine obtaining data they aren't supposed to have. Javascript in browsers, apps on phones etc. I've never heard of compromising an air-gapped machine other than by auto-run of stuff on a malicious device. (Unfortunately, Microsoft tried to take a make-it-just-work approach with plug-and-play. Windows will accept payloads from plugged-in devices. It's supposed to be things like that flash drive with a fingerprint sensor telling Windows how to use the fingerprint to unlock the encrypted portion. But it could also be a keyboard that tells Windows to do evil.)

 

[Elixir]

I'm talking in answer to the OP. There is a big lack of trust when it comes to our voting system. And I don't have all the answers and have said as much excepting that our voting system seemed to work long ago. And even if I did have the answers, that would not matter since I'm not important. But back decades ago there was trust in the system and there was trust in each other. We were somehow able to come together on at least the integrity of voting. There was no name calling and telling the other side they were completely stupid.

And that's no conspiracy theory.

And if you believe that malarkey then you are uninformed and perhaps even delusional. Lots of people just like yourself so don't feel too bad.

So about half of the US (not your half though) is delusion so don't feel bad about it?? I feel very bad about it because I don't like violence and civil war. I feel bad about it because I live here.

If you don't like violence and civil war why are you supporting the party of violence and civil war?

Collective insanity. MAGATS are the best example of it since the 1930s.
It’s a thing:

SHARED PSYCHOTIC DISORDER

 

[Shadowy Man]

I did not find any metal specialist who had humour..

I would recommend a rubber blade.

I’ve been told that “the Democrats have made that legally impossible through legal maneuvers.”

You need to stop watching FauxNews.

I don't watch Fox News. I learned it here from our very own presumably trustworthy right-aligned members. Are you suggesting, dear sir, that our friends may not be discussing these political issues in good faith??

 

[Elixir]

Are you suggesting, dear sir, that our friends may not be discussing these political issues in good faith??

Some of them used to.
/lame apologetics

 

[RVonse]

First off, the allegations of voter fraud only seem to pop up when dems win; not when republicans win.

 

[laughing dog]

First off, the allegations of voter fraud only seem to pop up when dems win; not when republicans win.

Mrs. Clinton's complaints are based on alleged Russian collusion, not voter fraud. There is not a single allegation of voter fraud in any of those videos. Try again. I am unaware that Mrs. Clinton every alleged voter fraud.