The incel issue

[lostone]

What do we do about incels and femcels?

We’ve got an unhappy group of people here. Why? Can it be fixed? Or at least ameliorated? For sure, the Jordan Petersons offer no real solution that most people can stomach. Are there better solutions? Many incels are unchurched, and introverts, have no peer groups to interact with, and have little contact with other people once they get to be older and retired.

It is assumed incels are all men, but that may not be true.

What I have read on FB indicates a lot of women are also incels. I have encountered some of them. They are called femcels.

It is also assumed that incels bring it on themselves by being unpleasant sexist assholes, that no one could ever want for a mate, but that also may not always be true. They may be the now commonplace male without a decent paying job still living in his parents’ basement.

Are older isolated people living alone also a group that can be considered to be incels? I read lots of stuff about how lonely many older people in the US that there are.

It may be your own problem for being an incel when you still have surviving family, but what about when you get to be old and alone?

Some sources claim you are not an incel or a femcel, if you have ever had a relationship, or even any sort of physical contact with someone else, but doesn’t that leave out a lot of people? ADL, for example, gives a rather narrow definition of what it is to be an incel, but I see it as a phenomena that includes tens of millions of people, using the broader definiton I have delineated.

Online Poll Results Provide New Insights into Incel Community

www.adl.org

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think they've always been with us, it's just the internet brought them out of the closet. I think the internet has also magnified the problem by increasing dating pools--people are less likely to settle for someone they regard as less desirable because they see plenty of better prospects out there. Being left out will screw with their minds and make them even less desirable, a self-perpetuating cycle. I have no idea of how to fix it. I believe a dating site truly set up to help people find compatible mates would probably help--current dating sites are optimized towards bringing in revenue, not towards marriages.

I don't see how having surviving family has anything to do with it--it's about romantic relationships, not family relationships.

 

[Toni]

For sure there are a lot of lonely people out there, something I expect to continue to increase as more people spend more time on line. Of special concern is the growing drive to have more/most university courses on line. This will make it even more difficult for young adults to separate from their families and establish their own identities

 

[lostone]

I see it as also a problem for older people whose spouse has died and they now live alone and do not have enough social contacts to form another relationship. Or maybe they do not want to form another relationship because it would complicate the inheritance they leave, but they are lonely. Or maybe the dating game seems too rough for them.

There must be tens of millions of people struggling with forming new relationships in the US, for any of various reasons.

 

[rousseau]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

 

[Tharmas]

I agree that the Internet and other inducements to solitary lifestyles may be a cause of the Incel problem, but I would like to add that one aspect of the Internet which hasn’t been touched on is the availability of almost unlimited free pornography. Pornography gives an overwhelmingly false depiction of male-female relations, and fosters expectations which are, to say the least, unrealistic. Sex is the only goal of male-female encounters and the models are typically physically attractive and well-endowed (women with large breasts and shapely bodies have sex with muscular men with large members).

Look at the vocabulary Incels use, starting with the word Incel itself – involuntarily celibate. Not lonely, relationship-less or forlorn, but without sex.

Other terms (from this site) include:
“Alpha — Men who are able to get the sex and affection that they desire, because according to Incels, they display traits of being popular and dominating, and are usually tall and athletic. Incels believe women cannot resist being attracted to men like this.

“Stacys — Stacy is a catch-all phrase for women who Incels consider to be the top tier of attractiveness — and thus are a huge target for their rage. Generally, they are described as athletic, blonde, and sexually experienced.

“White Knight — More a manosphere term than an incel one, but it provides more context about the way the communtiy views women. Defined on the definitive men’s rights reddit forum r/RedPill as:

“A male who attempts to gain the favor of or engage in sexual relations with females, who treats these females as Innocent, Delicate, Beautiful Goddesses who are in constant need of Protection, Defense, and Social Support. Where the needs and pleasing of females is top priority in the male’s life.”

In other words, it’s all about getting laid, and in particular, getting laid by especially voluptuous women.

I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this phenomenon.

 

[lostone]

I don't see it that way at all. I see it as a problem of lonely people of all ages, but particularly older widowed people living alone with few kin and social contacts. People whose sexual drive may be worn out, but who still want companionship, and maybe a partner to travel with and eat out with.

 

[rousseau]

I agree that the Internet and other inducements to solitary lifestyles may be a cause of the Incel problem, but I would like to add that one aspect of the Internet which hasn’t been touched on is the availability of almost unlimited free pornography. Pornography gives an overwhelmingly false depiction of male-female relations, and fosters expectations which are, to say the least, unrealistic. Sex is the only goal of male-female encounters and the models are typically physically attractive and well-endowed (women with large breasts and shapely bodies have sex with muscular men with large members).

Look at the vocabulary Incels use, starting with the word Incel itself – involuntarily celibate. Not lonely, relationship-less or forlorn, but without sex.

Other terms (from this site) include:
“Alpha — Men who are able to get the sex and affection that they desire, because according to Incels, they display traits of being popular and dominating, and are usually tall and athletic. Incels believe women cannot resist being attracted to men like this.

“Stacys — Stacy is a catch-all phrase for women who Incels consider to be the top tier of attractiveness — and thus are a huge target for their rage. Generally, they are described as athletic, blonde, and sexually experienced.

“White Knight — More a manosphere term than an incel one, but it provides more context about the way the communtiy views women. Defined on the definitive men’s rights reddit forum r/RedPill as:

“A male who attempts to gain the favor of or engage in sexual relations with females, who treats these females as Innocent, Delicate, Beautiful Goddesses who are in constant need of Protection, Defense, and Social Support. Where the needs and pleasing of females is top priority in the male’s life.”

In other words, it’s all about getting laid, and in particular, getting laid by especially voluptuous women.

I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this phenomenon.

Men and women alike usually fall along a growth and maturity curve, and it's this exact type of thing that you're supposed to grow out of. You'd be hard pressed to find many teenage boys who don't objectify women, but those who end up married, and further have successful relationships, have usually figured it out.

So maybe 'incel' is really a label for the emotionally immature - who, understandably, women (or men) don't want to sleep with. @lostone's point about older people seems to be a different issue entirely. These aren't incels, they're single and lonely.

 

[lostone]

Older people who are single and lonely are also involuntarily celibate. If we don't or can't label these older people people incels because the term has already been co-opted, what do we call them? Many of these older people are past the age where they have a raging sex drive and just want to have a male or female friend to run around with and sometimes take trips with.

Most such people already have children, although they may not see them often, and often have no desire to re-marry and mess up the inheritance they will leave their children.

 

[Elixir]

If we don't or can't label these older people people incels because the term has already been co-opted, what do we call them?

“Inceniles”

 

[bilby]

I don't see it that way at all. I see it as a problem of lonely people of all ages, but particularly older widowed people living alone with few kin and social contacts. People whose sexual drive may be worn out, but who still want companionship, and maybe a partner to travel with and eat out with.

That's certainly a modern social problem, but it's a completely different problem from the one under discussion.

Incels are defined by their rage at society, and are most commonly young men.

Young men who are enraged by the failure of society to live up to their completely unreasonable and unrealistic fantasies about having a lot of sex with beautiful women, without having to make much or even any effort to make this happen; And who genuinely believe that other men are, totally unfairly, already living this fantasy life and refusing to share it; And who place the blame for this fictional tragedy squarely on the beautiful women who inexplicably fail to throw themselves at a bunch of lazy losers, and to demand no-strings attached sex.

Those are the "incels". Their defining feature isn't their sadness or their loneliness; Nor even their pathetic-ness and loserdom; It's their rage.

Most incels are young, because typically it's only the young and naïve who feel that there's any merit in loudly bemoaning the fact that life is unfair, particularly in situations where the unfairness is a false perception caused by their inability to see that others who are more successful than they are also putting in vastly more effort than they do.

Incels are those people who completely fail to grasp that being effortlessly popular with attractive women requires an enormous amount of hard work. Or at least the occasional shower and donning of clean clothes, which is, in their world, an unimaginable amount of labour (and one which, if they do briefly try it, doesn't result in instant and overwhelming success, and is therefore obviously completely futile).

They need not be young to qualify for the label "incel", but they must be both immature and angry.

Angry young men who aren't getting laid are a major problem for any society, particularly one which makes a taboo of masturbation.

 

[lostone]

Then they have hijacked, co-opted the term. An involuntary-celibate (i.e. in-cel) can be a lonely person of any age, but it is most common among older people.

 

[bilby]

Older people who are single and lonely are also involuntarily celibate. If we don't or can't label these older people people incels because the term has already been co-opted, what do we call them?

That's the beauty of the English language; It allows the easy coining of words that have subtle shades of meaning beyond the etymological roots of the words in question. An "incel" is a specific subset of the people who are "involuntarily celibate"; The root of the word contributes to its meaning, but it far from being its entire meaning.

By abbreviating the phrase into a new word, we have created a way to discuss only this particular subset of men who don't have sex even though they would like to; And to distinguish them from the less socially corrosive elements who are merely struggling with loneliness, but without the false expectations and sense of entitlement, and the anger that those create.

Incels are lonely and "involuntarily celibate" men, but lonely men may or may not be incels.

 

[lostone]

Then our culture needs to make an effort to differentiate the larger group of people of both sexes who have no such corrosive illusion of entitlement from those who do. Such people exist in the tens of millions. How do we refer to those tens of millions of people rather than those angry few hundred of thousands of mal-adjusted people not willing to make any effort to solve their problem?

 

[bilby]

Then our culture needs to make an effort to differentiate the larger group of people of both sexes who have no such corrosive illusion of entitlement from those who do. Such people exist in the tens of millions. How do we refer to those tens of millions of people rather than those angry few hundred of thousands of mal-adjusted people not willing to make any effort to solve their problem?

"lonely".

 

[lostone]

OK, I will concede you your point, to a degree. But the 'lonely' still are 'incels', no matter how much our language has twisted the term. Involuntarily celibate. All languages do the same twisting.

Panties, lingerie, undergarments, unmentionables, and so on, the ongoing evolution of terms referring to women's undergarments.

.

 

[lostone]

Agreed that masturbation is good for people and unfortunately derided. Even better when one has had some real life experiences to recall.

 

[rousseau]

OK, I will concede you your point, to a degree. But the 'lonely' still are 'incels', no matter how much our language has twisted the term. Involuntarily celibate. All languages do the same twisting.

Panties, lingerie, undergarments, unmentionables, and so on, the ongoing evolution of terms referring to women's undergarments.

.

It's not really twisting the words. A lot of people could be coined as 'involuntarily celibate' but they don't define themselves that way.

What you're describing is social isolation, and is also a common problem in the elderly. In this case sex isn't the issue.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Look at the vocabulary Incels use, starting with the word Incel itself – involuntarily celibate. Not lonely, relationship-less or forlorn, but without sex.

True, but note your own words: "relationship-less". English lacks a suitable root to modify. Hence "incel".

In other words, it’s all about getting laid, and in particular, getting laid by especially voluptuous women.

I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this phenomenon.

I think the internet has brought them together and organized the sort of thing you're describing but I don't see it as the root cause.