The incel issue

[Loren Pechtel]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

But if you perservere, and try to develop a good social network, while you are young, there is hope. The world has lot more fives than tens, and even twos and threes can succeed, if they help each other. But once you get older, your options get smaller.

Did you not note the "not neurotypical" part? That basically precludes a good social network.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you want to be more precise it really comes down to probability. Good looking men with solid social skills and a well-paying job are unlikely not to end up with someone. And vice versa, those with few redeeming qualities can find someone, it's just going to be a lot more difficult.

But "a lot more difficult" often translates to isn't going to happen as they don't have infinite time to do it. Furthermore, as the years go by the chance of success drops--most people are already paired off and the person who hasn't had a chance to develop the skills will generally get rejected as incompetent as by then it's assumed they should have developed them.

I have a hard time thinking of many men I know who've never dated, and those I can think of are bordering on disabled. When the benchmark is 'will you be a good father', people like that are going to struggle.

The only person I know who has never dated is sufficiently disabled that dating is not an option.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But you still want the physical contact with someone you like, even if the ole pole don't work so well no more

This. Sex is desirable. Love and affection are a need.

 

[lostone]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

But if you perservere, and try to develop a good social network, while you are young, there is hope. The world has lot more fives than tens, and even twos and threes can succeed, if they help each other. But once you get older, your options get smaller.

Did you not note the "not neurotypical" part? That basically precludes a good social network.

You are correct, I read past that part.

If you lack looks, you need some help, and if you are also neurotypical, you won't be able to develop that helping network and properly utilize it. You have to have some assets.

 

[Elixir]

If you’re creepy, you’re at a disadvantage.

Don‘t be creepy.

(follow me for more life hacks and tips!)

 

[lostone]

My

If you’re creepy, you’re at a disadvantage.

Don‘t be creepy.

(follow me for more life hacks and tips!)

My niece likes her men creepy, and has had two disastrous marriages to prove it - there are relationship problems even worse than being an incel. One of her husbands, an ex-con with a violent history, out on parole, tried to stab her to death, and left her bleeding in the bathroom to die. He's back in the pen, and hopefully won't get out again anytime soon.

 

[rousseau]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

 

[lostone]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

If incels accept the limits (responsibility) you claim nature sets on them, does that make their condition any more bearable? What would you have society do about them? Jordan Peterson has offered his; many of us on the Left who support femininsm find his 'solutions' appalling. Suck it in and endure? How would you deal with the issue?

 

[rousseau]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

If incels accept the limits (responsibility) you claim nature sets on them, does that make their condition any more bearable? What would you have society do about them? Jordan Peterson has offered his; many of us on the Left who support femininsm find his 'solutions' appalling. Suck it in and endure? How would you deal with the issue?

You don't deal with the issue, there is no issue. Nobody has the right to sex or a relationship unless someone grants it to them of their own volition. If a person can't find a job, there are supports in place, if someone has a disability, there are supports in place. Relationships are something you can't regulate.

'Life isn't fair' is a cliche, but in the Western world many have an expectation that everything's just going to be handed to them without planning or making an effort. And they have an expectation that they will get what they want. Life just doesn't work that way, but I'd guess the very problem many incels have precludes this understanding.

What everyone went through with the pandemic is tangential, but related. We were all forced into conditions outside of our control, and to succeed in those conditions we had to actually harness grit and intellect, plan, make good decisions. Some people have the ability to thrive when faced with adversity, others don't. If you don't, there may be a valid reason why people won't accept you as a partner.

 

[lostone]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

If incels accept the limits (responsibility) you claim nature sets on them, does that make their condition any more bearable? What would you have society do about them? Jordan Peterson has offered his; many of us on the Left who support femininsm find his 'solutions' appalling. Suck it in and endure? How would you deal with the issue?

You don't deal with the issue, there is no issue. Nobody has the right to sex or a relationship unless someone grants it to them of their own volition. If a person can't find a job, there are supports in place, if someone has a disability, there are supports in place. Relationships are something you can't regulate.

'Life isn't fair' is a cliche, but in the Western world many have an expectation that everything's just going to be handed to them without planning or making an effort. And they have an expectation that they will get what they want. Life just doesn't work that way, but I'd guess the very problem many incels have precludes this understanding.

What everyone went through with the pandemic is tangential, but related. We were all forced into conditions outside of our control, and to succeed in those conditions we had to actually harness grit and intellect, plan, make good decisions. Some people have the ability to thrive when faced with adversity, others don't. If you don't, there may be a valid reason why people won't accept you as a partner.

So should those who are unhappy just commit suicide?

 

[lostone]

Seriously, do we just write these people off, and forget about them? If not, what can we do about them?

 

[bilby]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

If incels accept the limits (responsibility) you claim nature sets on them, does that make their condition any more bearable? What would you have society do about them? Jordan Peterson has offered his; many of us on the Left who support femininsm find his 'solutions' appalling. Suck it in and endure? How would you deal with the issue?

You don't deal with the issue, there is no issue. Nobody has the right to sex or a relationship unless someone grants it to them of their own volition. If a person can't find a job, there are supports in place, if someone has a disability, there are supports in place. Relationships are something you can't regulate.

'Life isn't fair' is a cliche, but in the Western world many have an expectation that everything's just going to be handed to them without planning or making an effort. And they have an expectation that they will get what they want. Life just doesn't work that way, but I'd guess the very problem many incels have precludes this understanding.

What everyone went through with the pandemic is tangential, but related. We were all forced into conditions outside of our control, and to succeed in those conditions we had to actually harness grit and intellect, plan, make good decisions. Some people have the ability to thrive when faced with adversity, others don't. If you don't, there may be a valid reason why people won't accept you as a partner.

So should those who are unhappy just commit suicide?

No, they should find ways to be happy without a sexual relationship.

It's not an entitlement; If nobody wants to have a sexual relationship with you, (or more accurately, nobody you want to have a sexual relationship with wants to have a sexual relationship with you), then you don't get to have a sexual relationship.

How you cope with that is up to you, but it's not a problem that society is obliged to resolve by finding you someone to have a sexual relationship with.

Suicide is perhaps the most extreme and least sensible solution; It's certainly not the only one available, nor the best.

I doubt there's a polity in the history of civilisation where it hasn't been possible to pay for a brief and non-exclusive sexual relationship; And very few people are physiologically incapable of bringing themselves to orgasm without the assistance of a partner.

There are plenty of solutions; Demanding that someone be enslaved to your desires isn't one of them, in our modern society.

 

[lostone]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

If incels accept the limits (responsibility) you claim nature sets on them, does that make their condition any more bearable? What would you have society do about them? Jordan Peterson has offered his; many of us on the Left who support femininsm find his 'solutions' appalling. Suck it in and endure? How would you deal with the issue?

You don't deal with the issue, there is no issue. Nobody has the right to sex or a relationship unless someone grants it to them of their own volition. If a person can't find a job, there are supports in place, if someone has a disability, there are supports in place. Relationships are something you can't regulate.

'Life isn't fair' is a cliche, but in the Western world many have an expectation that everything's just going to be handed to them without planning or making an effort. And they have an expectation that they will get what they want. Life just doesn't work that way, but I'd guess the very problem many incels have precludes this understanding.

What everyone went through with the pandemic is tangential, but related. We were all forced into conditions outside of our control, and to succeed in those conditions we had to actually harness grit and intellect, plan, make good decisions. Some people have the ability to thrive when faced with adversity, others don't. If you don't, there may be a valid reason why people won't accept you as a partner.

So should those who are unhappy just commit suicide?

No, they should find ways to be happy without a sexual relationship.

It's not an entitlement; If nobody wants to have a sexual relationship with you, (or more accurately, nobody you want to have a sexual relationship with wants to have a sexual relationship with you), then you don't get to have a sexual relationship.

How you cope with that is up to you, but it's not a problem that society is obliged to resolve by finding you someone to have a sexual relationship with.

Suicide is perhaps the most extreme and least sensible solution; It's certainly not the only one available, nor the best.

I doubt there's a polity in the history of civilisation where it hasn't been possible to pay for a brief and non-exclusive sexual relationship; And very few people are physiologically incapable of bringing themselves to orgasm without the assistance of a partner.

There are plenty of solutions; Demanding that someone be enslaved to your desires isn't one of them, in our modern society.

Who is demanding that anyone do any such thing? I certainly am not. Jordan Peterson is the one doing that kind of demands. Do you want to sweep it under the table?

 

[lostone]

Relationship training might be an option, for those willing to seek it.

 

[rousseau]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

If incels accept the limits (responsibility) you claim nature sets on them, does that make their condition any more bearable? What would you have society do about them? Jordan Peterson has offered his; many of us on the Left who support femininsm find his 'solutions' appalling. Suck it in and endure? How would you deal with the issue?

You don't deal with the issue, there is no issue. Nobody has the right to sex or a relationship unless someone grants it to them of their own volition. If a person can't find a job, there are supports in place, if someone has a disability, there are supports in place. Relationships are something you can't regulate.

'Life isn't fair' is a cliche, but in the Western world many have an expectation that everything's just going to be handed to them without planning or making an effort. And they have an expectation that they will get what they want. Life just doesn't work that way, but I'd guess the very problem many incels have precludes this understanding.

What everyone went through with the pandemic is tangential, but related. We were all forced into conditions outside of our control, and to succeed in those conditions we had to actually harness grit and intellect, plan, make good decisions. Some people have the ability to thrive when faced with adversity, others don't. If you don't, there may be a valid reason why people won't accept you as a partner.

So should those who are unhappy just commit suicide?

The subtext I'm picking up is that you're lonely, and maybe unhappy. It's a valid problem as a senior, and one I think about a lot. I'm only thirty-seven, and the only genuine ambition I have left is to see my boys to adulthood. After that it's pretty much just my wife. And if she goes I don't know what will be left for me.

Anymore I'm convinced that not being enthusiastic about living is normal, at least among some people. But you try to make the best of it. Believing that you ought to be happy is likely a bigger problem, because it makes the lack of happiness into an actual problem, rather than just a part of life. Where if you accept the condition you're in, that gives you space to enjoy life despite your problems.

For those who are young and unhappy, they likely just need some advice (which may not be so easy to get).

 

[lostone]

My wife is long gone. I have had a long life, and have no desire to be happy, only to enjoy what parts of life I still can.

I try to have some empathy for the problems faced by those less privileged than I, and do what i can to ease their problems.

 

[lostone]

Perhaps unhappiness is a normal, even to some extent desirable, part of human life, and not something to be feared and avoided

 

[lostone]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

But if you perservere, and try to develop a good social network, while you are young, there is hope. The world has lot more fives than tens, and even twos and threes can succeed, if they help each other. But once you get older, your options get smaller.

Did you not note the "not neurotypical" part? That basically precludes a good social network.

Neurodivergent people on FB, or at least people who claim to be so, have a very prominent presence on FB, as an advocacy group. So it is not only possible, it is being done, for them to interact socially to their own benefit. Similar advocates on FB press the causes of fat people, short people, and autistic people.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The big problem is the violent incels. These bozos haunt the social media sewers cheering those incels as heros that actually do murder women. Meanwhile radical evangelicals spew the poison of dominionism. Men must be masters of women because Bible.