The incel issue

[lostone]

It has been a problem for a long time Old Beatles song

The Beatles – Eleanor Rigby

“Eleanor Rigby” is a song about loneliness and depression representing a departure from their early pop love songs. This is an early example of the Beatles taking risks and

genius.com

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Older people who are single and lonely are also involuntarily celibate. If we don't or can't label these older people people incels because the term has already been co-opted, what do we call them? Many of these older people are past the age where they have a raging sex drive and just want to have a male or female friend to run around with and sometimes take trips with.

Most such people already have children, although they may not see them often, and often have no desire to re-marry and mess up the inheritance they will leave their children.

And plenty of them do want sex. I can't think of anyone we know that has found a new partner after 50--a few that found temporary sex, but that's it.

 

[lostone]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

But if you perservere, and try to develop a good social network, while you are young, there is hope. The world has lot more fives than tens, and even twos and threes can succeed, if they help each other. But once you get older, your options get smaller.

 

[lostone]

Older people who are single and lonely are also involuntarily celibate. If we don't or can't label these older people people incels because the term has already been co-opted, what do we call them? Many of these older people are past the age where they have a raging sex drive and just want to have a male or female friend to run around with and sometimes take trips with.

Most such people already have children, although they may not see them often, and often have no desire to re-marry and mess up the inheritance they will leave their children.

And plenty of them do want sex. I can't think of anyone we know that has found a new partner after 50--a few that found temporary sex, but that's it.

People still want sex as they get older. Their ability to perform gets much more limited.

 

[rousseau]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

 

[lostone]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

People on the lower level of the attractive scale can still work it out, if they cooperate, accept their limits, work together, accept what they are and work together. Half of all people are in the bottom half of the social scale.

 

[rousseau]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

People on the lower level of the attractive scale can still work it out, if they cooperate, accept their limits, work together, accept what they are and work together. Half of all people are in the bottom half of the social scale.

That's actually not true. It's more like the overwhelming amount of people are datable and will find someone. Those who can't find anyone are on the extreme of the curve and a minority.

I'd guess, for men, it's usually about intellect, not appearance.

 

[Elixir]

not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

Really? I always thought everyone - or at least almost everyone - was desirable to someone. Most people are desirable to numerous other people. Failure to recognize attraction, refusal to risk interpreting attraction signals for what they are, fear of rejection manifesting as suppressed response to such signals etc., all have a role in rationalizing anger/frustration at their own failure to satisfy or at least tame their own primal sexual urges.

I know a lot of short ugly men who do just fine with “the ladies”, if for no other reason than that they’re fearless. I envy that quality, but despite lacking it I have not ever had any basis for complaint about lack of availability or opportunity for relationships and/or sex. And it’s not because of my movie star looks or vast fortune.

I'd guess, for men, it's usually about intellect

I suspect that emotional immaturity/insecurity has plenty to do with it.

 

[lostone]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

People on the lower level of the attractive scale can still work it out, if they cooperate, accept their limits, work together, accept what they are and work together. Half of all people are in the bottom half of the social scale.

That's actually not true. It's more like the overwhelming amount of people are datable and will find someone. Those who can't find anyone are on the extreme of the curve and a minority.

I'd guess, for men, it's usually about intellect, not appearance.

Most people have a mix of some negative and some positive traits to offer Intellect can compensate for lack of height, to some extent, for example.

 

[rousseau]

not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

Really? I always thought everyone - or at least almost everyone - was desirable to someone. Most people are desirable to numerous other people. Failure to recognize attraction, refusal to risk interpreting attraction signals for what they are, fear of rejection manifesting as suppressed response to such signals etc., all have a role in rationalizing anger/frustration at their own failure to satisfy or at least tame their own primal sexual urges.

I know a lot of short ugly men who do just fine with “the ladies”, if for no other reason than that they’re fearless. I envy that quality, but despite lacking it I have not ever had any basis for complaint about lack of availability or opportunity for relationships and/or sex. And it’s not because of my movie star looks or vast fortune.

I'd guess, for men, it's usually about intellect

I suspect that emotional immaturity/insecurity has plenty to do with it.

If you want to be more precise it really comes down to probability. Good looking men with solid social skills and a well-paying job are unlikely not to end up with someone. And vice versa, those with few redeeming qualities can find someone, it's just going to be a lot more difficult.

I have a hard time thinking of many men I know who've never dated, and those I can think of are bordering on disabled. When the benchmark is 'will you be a good father', people like that are going to struggle.

 

[lostone]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

Incels can do better if they accept their limitations and make an effort to be more desirable - after all, not all women are problem free, either, and many of them have some of the same problems less desirable men do.

But the issues for older people are not the same as they were for them when they were younger.

Ever had cataracts? A running joke is that 'can drive at night' is a big seller for older people.

 

[lostone]

I have a niece who has been in one terrible relationship after another. One of her husbands actually tried to kill her.

My brother's first wife has been married six or seven times. She is An evangelical preacher, BTW. She was once good looking. now she looks like she would be at home on a sturdy broom.

 

[bilby]

But the 'lonely' still are 'incels', no matter how much our language has twisted the term.

The term was explicitly coined to refer only to the relevant subset of lonely people. It hasn't been twisted, it has always had one specific meaning, and claiming it for a wider group of involuntarily celibate individuals would be a back formation.

 

[lostone]

But the 'lonely' still are 'incels', no matter how much our language has twisted the term.

The term was explicitly coined to refer only to the relevant subset of lonely people. It hasn't been twisted, it has always had one specific meaning, and claiming it for a wider group of involuntarily celibate individuals would be a back formation.

Yes, the term was coined to refer to that specific group of people. That does not change the fact that a much wider group of people fitting the term existed before and continue to exist after the term was coined.

 

[lostone]

not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

Really? I always thought everyone - or at least almost everyone - was desirable to someone. Most people are desirable to numerous other people. Failure to recognize attraction, refusal to risk interpreting attraction signals for what they are, fear of rejection manifesting as suppressed response to such signals etc., all have a role in rationalizing anger/frustration at their own failure to satisfy or at least tame their own primal sexual urges.

I know a lot of short ugly men who do just fine with “the ladies”, if for no other reason than that they’re fearless. I envy that quality, but despite lacking it I have not ever had any basis for complaint about lack of availability or opportunity for relationships and/or sex. And it’s not because of my movie star looks or vast fortune.

I'd guess, for men, it's usually about intellect

I suspect that emotional immaturity/insecurity has plenty to do with it.

If you want to be more precise it really comes down to probability. Good looking men with solid social skills and a well-paying job are unlikely not to end up with someone. And vice versa, those with few redeeming qualities can find someone, it's just going to be a lot more difficult.

I have a hard time thinking of many men I know who've never dated, and those I can think of are bordering on disabled. When the benchmark is 'will you be a good father', people like that are going to struggle.

As you will note from some family examples that I cited in a previous post even, even so called Alphas and Staceys struggle with their relationships. Even lusty and mighty Zeus and Apollo, in Greek myths, got rejected now and then. And our sainted ex-Prez, ole grab 'em by the pussy himself found several women who didn't want him to be groping them.

 

[Toni]

Then they have hijacked, co-opted the term. An involuntary-celibate (i.e. in-cel) can be a lonely person of any age, but it is most common among older people.

I don’t agree that the term has been hijacked. Rather, it has been coined specifically for a certain type of ( male) person who is involuntarily celibate and pretty pissed off about it and who has a lot of hostility towards women because they feel ( pre-) rejected by women in general.

I agree that loneliness in general is the primary culprit but I see this as different, less rage fueled than the many older singles who are lonely, either because they’ve never found someone or because they have lost a partner through death or divorce and have struggled to cope or to find someone to alleviate their loneliness.

I think that in many ways the internet has both helped to create the problem and for some, has alleviated it. People do meet others through the internet, after all abd even marry people they’ve met online.

I think that the pandemic really exacerbated the trend of loneliness. And singledom.

My father, of a completely different generation, used to go to Parents Without Partners meetings when he was between marriages. Met his third wife/widow there and nearly married a different woman he met there before #3.

Today, if I found myself in that situation, I’d do two things: go to my community’s senior center and start volunteering.

 

[Toni]

Older people who are single and lonely are also involuntarily celibate. If we don't or can't label these older people people incels because the term has already been co-opted, what do we call them? Many of these older people are past the age where they have a raging sex drive and just want to have a male or female friend to run around with and sometimes take trips with.

Most such people already have children, although they may not see them often, and often have no desire to re-marry and mess up the inheritance they will leave their children.

And plenty of them do want sex. I can't think of anyone we know that has found a new partner after 50--a few that found temporary sex, but that's it.

My father married his third and final ( and age appropriate) wife just after he retired at age 63. They definitely had an active sex life until his COPD put an end to that.

Folks, please don’t smoke. If you do, please stop.

 

[lostone]

Older people who are single and lonely are also involuntarily celibate. If we don't or can't label these older people people incels because the term has already been co-opted, what do we call them? Many of these older people are past the age where they have a raging sex drive and just want to have a male or female friend to run around with and sometimes take trips with.

Most such people already have children, although they may not see them often, and often have no desire to re-marry and mess up the inheritance they will leave their children.

And plenty of them do want sex. I can't think of anyone we know that has found a new partner after 50--a few that found temporary sex, but that's it.

My father married his third and final ( and age appropriate) wife just after he retired at age 63. They definitely had an active sex life until his COPD put an end to that.

Folks, please don’t smoke. If you do, please stop.

Try it at 80 - you still want it, but it doesn't work as well - male prostate issues take care of that

 

[lostone]

Older people who are single and lonely are also involuntarily celibate. If we don't or can't label these older people people incels because the term has already been co-opted, what do we call them? Many of these older people are past the age where they have a raging sex drive and just want to have a male or female friend to run around with and sometimes take trips with.

Most such people already have children, although they may not see them often, and often have no desire to re-marry and mess up the inheritance they will leave their children.

And plenty of them do want sex. I can't think of anyone we know that has found a new partner after 50--a few that found temporary sex, but that's it.

My father married his third and final ( and age appropriate) wife just after he retired at age 63. They definitely had an active sex life until his COPD put an end to that.

Folks, please don’t smoke. If you do, please stop.

But you still want the physical contact with someone you like, even if the ole pole don't work so well no more

 

[Toni]

Older people who are single and lonely are also involuntarily celibate. If we don't or can't label these older people people incels because the term has already been co-opted, what do we call them? Many of these older people are past the age where they have a raging sex drive and just want to have a male or female friend to run around with and sometimes take trips with.

Most such people already have children, although they may not see them often, and often have no desire to re-marry and mess up the inheritance they will leave their children.

And plenty of them do want sex. I can't think of anyone we know that has found a new partner after 50--a few that found temporary sex, but that's it.

My father married his third and final ( and age appropriate) wife just after he retired at age 63. They definitely had an active sex life until his COPD put an end to that.

Folks, please don’t smoke. If you do, please stop.

But you still want the physical contact with someone you like, even if the ole pole don't work so well no more

Apparently things were still going strong until very close to the end. Dad had lots of faults but he was always a warm and affectionate person.