The incel issue

[Jimmy Higgins]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

Yeah, the thing is, that doesn't justify the rage. I have hardly "done well" with women, and it was frustrating and could be lonely.

But I never hated women for it. This is the difference between being stuck being single and being an incel.

 

[Elixir]

Looking back over my 30-something single years, loneliness was always lurking around the edges no matter how much of what kind of attention I was getting from the "fairer sex". Even in marriage, it's always close by, waiting to take over if I fail to make the effort to connect with my wife (yes, it takes effort even with the spouse) or other people, neglect physical exercise, or fall into the vicious circle of lamenting some thing or other than has been "unfairly" conferred upon me.
"NOBODY UNDERSTANDS!" I think.
Well, Duh. Nobody really does understand, nor do I really understand what it's like to be anyone else.
We are each our own person, and are left with that when all else falls away.

The degree to which we suffer from loneliness due to our actual separation from the rest of humanity, is directly (inversely) correlated with the effort we have made to become comfortable in our own skin, whatever its form, shape or state of health. At least that's true for me - YMMV. Lots of exercise, lots of things I "need" to do, the occasional mental challenge and very regular meditation, combine to keep me from spiraling down - at least to any lethal extent.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

If incels accept the limits (responsibility) you claim nature sets on them, does that make their condition any more bearable? What would you have society do about them? Jordan Peterson has offered his; many of us on the Left who support femininsm find his 'solutions' appalling. Suck it in and endure? How would you deal with the issue?

You don't deal with the issue, there is no issue. Nobody has the right to sex or a relationship unless someone grants it to them of their own volition. If a person can't find a job, there are supports in place, if someone has a disability, there are supports in place. Relationships are something you can't regulate.

This part I agree with.

'Life isn't fair' is a cliche, but in the Western world many have an expectation that everything's just going to be handed to them without planning or making an effort. And they have an expectation that they will get what they want. Life just doesn't work that way, but I'd guess the very problem many incels have precludes this understanding.

But you're in effect blaming them for it. We should be looking for solutions, not telling them it's their fault.

I don't know if there are answers or what they are, but I disagree with in effect just dismissing the whole problem.

 

[lostone]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

Yeah, the thing is, that doesn't justify the rage. I have hardly "done well" with women, and it was frustrating and could be lonely.

But I never hated women for it. This is the difference between being stuck being single and being an incel.

Relationships are going to be a rough ride, for most of us. But what we have to do to get something out of them is do the work to try to understand why we sometimes succeed and sometimes fail.. Even in a long term relationship, there will be some rough spots.

Hating women, or men, should never be viewed as an option, by either sex. If we fail, it is our fault, and we have to deconstruct how and why we can do better next time.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So should those who are unhappy just commit suicide?

Go be poor somewhere else.

 

[lostone]

So should those who are unhappy just commit suicide?

Go be poor somewhere else.

Get out of the basement and starve on the streets

 

[rousseau]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

If incels accept the limits (responsibility) you claim nature sets on them, does that make their condition any more bearable? What would you have society do about them? Jordan Peterson has offered his; many of us on the Left who support femininsm find his 'solutions' appalling. Suck it in and endure? How would you deal with the issue?

You don't deal with the issue, there is no issue. Nobody has the right to sex or a relationship unless someone grants it to them of their own volition. If a person can't find a job, there are supports in place, if someone has a disability, there are supports in place. Relationships are something you can't regulate.

This part I agree with.

'Life isn't fair' is a cliche, but in the Western world many have an expectation that everything's just going to be handed to them without planning or making an effort. And they have an expectation that they will get what they want. Life just doesn't work that way, but I'd guess the very problem many incels have precludes this understanding.

But you're in effect blaming them for it. We should be looking for solutions, not telling them it's their fault.

I don't know if there are answers or what they are, but I disagree with in effect just dismissing the whole problem.

I don't understand where you're getting the 'blame' part from, that's just an inaccurate interpretation of my comments. No one is to blame for who are what they are, but nobody but ourselves can work toward the life we want. People can provide us advice, money, emotional support - that's a part of everyday life - but it's not possible to hand someone a healthy, romantic relationship. It's just not.

Framing the situation as one where 'blame' is assigned at all misses the point. Finding a partner isn't about you, it's about supporting your partner. Not recognizing that is the exact problem that incels have. If they don't have the mental wherewithal to support someone, they shouldn't be in a relationship.

 

[lostone]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

If incels accept the limits (responsibility) you claim nature sets on them, does that make their condition any more bearable? What would you have society do about them? Jordan Peterson has offered his; many of us on the Left who support femininsm find his 'solutions' appalling. Suck it in and endure? How would you deal with the issue?

You don't deal with the issue, there is no issue. Nobody has the right to sex or a relationship unless someone grants it to them of their own volition. If a person can't find a job, there are supports in place, if someone has a disability, there are supports in place. Relationships are something you can't regulate.

This part I agree with.

'Life isn't fair' is a cliche, but in the Western world many have an expectation that everything's just going to be handed to them without planning or making an effort. And they have an expectation that they will get what they want. Life just doesn't work that way, but I'd guess the very problem many incels have precludes this understanding.

But you're in effect blaming them for it. We should be looking for solutions, not telling them it's their fault.

I don't know if there are answers or what they are, but I disagree with in effect just dismissing the whole problem.

I don't understand where you're getting the 'blame' part from, that's just an inaccurate interpretation of my comments. No one is to blame for who are what they are, but nobody but ourselves can work toward the life we want. People can provide us advice, money, emotional support - that's a part of everyday life - but it's not possible to hand someone a healthy, romantic relationship. It's just not.

Framing the situation as one where 'blame' is assigned at all misses the point. Finding a partner isn't about you, it's about supporting your partner. Not recognizing that is the exact problem that incels have. If they don't have the mental wherewithal to support someone, they shouldn't be in a relationship.

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

If incels accept the limits (responsibility) you claim nature sets on them, does that make their condition any more bearable? What would you have society do about them? Jordan Peterson has offered his; many of us on the Left who support femininsm find his 'solutions' appalling. Suck it in and endure? How would you deal with the issue?

You don't deal with the issue, there is no issue. Nobody has the right to sex or a relationship unless someone grants it to them of their own volition. If a person can't find a job, there are supports in place, if someone has a disability, there are supports in place. Relationships are something you can't regulate.

This part I agree with.

'Life isn't fair' is a cliche, but in the Western world many have an expectation that everything's just going to be handed to them without planning or making an effort. And they have an expectation that they will get what they want. Life just doesn't work that way, but I'd guess the very problem many incels have precludes this understanding.

But you're in effect blaming them for it. We should be looking for solutions, not telling them it's their fault.

I don't know if there are answers or what they are, but I disagree with in effect just dismissing the whole problem.

I don't understand where you're getting the 'blame' part from, that's just an inaccurate interpretation of my comments. No one is to blame for who are what they are, but nobody but ourselves can work toward the life we want. People can provide us advice, money, emotional support - that's a part of everyday life - but it's not possible to hand someone a healthy, romantic relationship. It's just not.

Framing the situation as one where 'blame' is assigned at all misses the point. Finding a partner isn't about you, it's about supporting your partner. Not recognizing that is the exact problem that incels have. If they don't have the mental wherewithal to support someone, they shouldn't be in a relationship.

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

That may be true but their happiness is still their own responsibility, particularly regarding relationships. The whole point of partnering is to choose someone you like. And not everyone is desirable, that's just a harsh fact that incels need to accept.

But you're assigning fault as if it's something they could fix. It often isn't.

I'm assigning responsibility, not fault.

If incels accept the limits (responsibility) you claim nature sets on them, does that make their condition any more bearable? What would you have society do about them? Jordan Peterson has offered his; many of us on the Left who support femininsm find his 'solutions' appalling. Suck it in and endure? How would you deal with the issue?

You don't deal with the issue, there is no issue. Nobody has the right to sex or a relationship unless someone grants it to them of their own volition. If a person can't find a job, there are supports in place, if someone has a disability, there are supports in place. Relationships are something you can't regulate.

This part I agree with.

'Life isn't fair' is a cliche, but in the Western world many have an expectation that everything's just going to be handed to them without planning or making an effort. And they have an expectation that they will get what they want. Life just doesn't work that way, but I'd guess the very problem many incels have precludes this understanding.

But you're in effect blaming them for it. We should be looking for solutions, not telling them it's their fault.

I don't know if there are answers or what they are, but I disagree with in effect just dismissing the whole problem.

I don't understand where you're getting the 'blame' part from, that's just an inaccurate interpretation of my comments. No one is to blame for who are what they are, but nobody but ourselves can work toward the life we want. People can provide us advice, money, emotional support - that's a part of everyday life - but it's not possible to hand someone a healthy, romantic relationship. It's just not.

Framing the situation as one where 'blame' is assigned at all misses the point. Finding a partner isn't about you, it's about supporting your partner. Not recognizing that is the exact problem that incels have. If they don't have the mental wherewithal to support someone, they shouldn't be in a relationship.

That is a strawman. No one is arguing that. We are seeking solutions, not assigning blame. We are trying to find a way to avoid just throwing these people in the junk pile.

 

[rousseau]

That is a strawman. No one is arguing that. We are seeking solutions, not assigning blame. We are trying to find a way to avoid just throwing these people in the junk pile.

I have nothing against a solution, I just don't think there is one.

For the elderly there are some solutions that tackle isolation. For young people there are bars, dating sites, meetup groups, college, church etc etc. If you can't make that work I don't think there really is a tangible solution beyond accepting your situation, and making the best of it. But many of these people likely don't have the mental wherewithal to just accept it.

 

[lostone]

That is a strawman. No one is arguing that. We are seeking solutions, not assigning blame. We are trying to find a way to avoid just throwing these people in the junk pile.

I have nothing against a solution, I just don't think there is one.

For the elderly there are some solutions that tackle isolation. For young people there are bars, dating sites, meetup groups, college, church etc etc. If you can't make that work I don't think there really is a tangible solution beyond accepting your situation, and making the best of it. But many of these people likely don't have the mental wherewithal to just accept it.

Then maybe we should concentrate on helping them view their options in more palatable light? I do not know, and am seeking a tenable humane position to adopt.

When I was of that age, back in 1965, dating sites did not exist, but as you said, I got my post-college job near a woman's college, where there was an abundant pool of single women, and hung out in the bars right off-campus where I could easily meet people.

The elderly can cope. They have the emotional tools to do so, lonely though they may be, even if they are isolated in their homes and find it difficult to get out. I speak of that first hand, albeit many have more difficult situations than my own.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So should those who are unhappy just commit suicide?

No, they should find ways to be happy without a sexual relationship.

It's not an entitlement; If nobody wants to have a sexual relationship with you, (or more accurately, nobody you want to have a sexual relationship with wants to have a sexual relationship with you), then you don't get to have a sexual relationship.

How you cope with that is up to you, but it's not a problem that society is obliged to resolve by finding you someone to have a sexual relationship with.

Suicide is perhaps the most extreme and least sensible solution; It's certainly not the only one available, nor the best.

I doubt there's a polity in the history of civilisation where it hasn't been possible to pay for a brief and non-exclusive sexual relationship; And very few people are physiologically incapable of bringing themselves to orgasm without the assistance of a partner.

There are plenty of solutions; Demanding that someone be enslaved to your desires isn't one of them, in our modern society.

You seem to think there are only two polar opposites.

Can't there be a middle ground where society helps such people find relationships?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A couple decades ago somebody who was 'involuntarily celibate' would have just been called single or unlucky. The internet lets us pathologize a lot of stuff, but finding a partner is supposed to be hard. And not everyone is guaranteed to meet someone.

If there's a problem it's more that incels are out of touch with the above. If they want to find a partner they need to look for one, if they can't find one that falls squarely on them.

If you're not blessed in the looks department and not neurotypical you're going to have a very hard time of it through no fault of your own.

Yeah, the thing is, that doesn't justify the rage. I have hardly "done well" with women, and it was frustrating and could be lonely.

But I never hated women for it. This is the difference between being stuck being single and being an incel.

There is the radical element that hates women for it, but there's a much larger population that hasn't been radicalized and simply is in pain.

And when you have a population in pain some will end up radicalized, there's no way to avoid that in a remotely free society.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That is a strawman. No one is arguing that. We are seeking solutions, not assigning blame. We are trying to find a way to avoid just throwing these people in the junk pile.

I have nothing against a solution, I just don't think there is one.

For the elderly there are some solutions that tackle isolation. For young people there are bars, dating sites, meetup groups, college, church etc etc. If you can't make that work I don't think there really is a tangible solution beyond accepting your situation, and making the best of it. But many of these people likely don't have the mental wherewithal to just accept it.

Bars? You realize these days the majority of people are non-drinkers?

Church? Once again, not an option for a lot of people.

Dating sites? If you've got the looks. And even then they're about extracting money, not about actually finding people. A dating site that actually works well loses it's customer base.

College is good for those at that age, useless for those who have already graduated. And at least when I was in college some fields were highly skewed.

I do agree there are things like meetup groups. I think that's probably one of the better things for them that has come along.

And you're still blaming: "don't have the mental wherewithal".

 

[bilby]

So should those who are unhappy just commit suicide?

No, they should find ways to be happy without a sexual relationship.

It's not an entitlement; If nobody wants to have a sexual relationship with you, (or more accurately, nobody you want to have a sexual relationship with wants to have a sexual relationship with you), then you don't get to have a sexual relationship.

How you cope with that is up to you, but it's not a problem that society is obliged to resolve by finding you someone to have a sexual relationship with.

Suicide is perhaps the most extreme and least sensible solution; It's certainly not the only one available, nor the best.

I doubt there's a polity in the history of civilisation where it hasn't been possible to pay for a brief and non-exclusive sexual relationship; And very few people are physiologically incapable of bringing themselves to orgasm without the assistance of a partner.

There are plenty of solutions; Demanding that someone be enslaved to your desires isn't one of them, in our modern society.

You seem to think there are only two polar opposites.

Can't there be a middle ground where society helps such people find relationships?

Sure. But not if they've pre-emptively decided to despise everyone. Which is the defining feature of an incel.

The first step towards a solution is to accept that you have a problem; Incels are (by definition) those who insist that they are fine, and that their failures are therefore everyone else's fault.

Indeed, we live in a society that helps people - any people - find relationships. There are a metric shit-tonne of websites dedicated to this, running the entire spectrum of possible relationships that someone might want, from long term marriage and children, through to casual no-strings sex, and every shade and permutation of interaction in between.

What society can do is put lonely people in touch with each other. What it cannot do is force people to enter into a relationship with someone they don't like. And Incels exalt in their unlikability. They want someone else to devote herself to them, but don't want to put in any effort on their own part. That's extremely unlikely to work.

 

[lostone]

That is a strawman. No one is arguing that. We are seeking solutions, not assigning blame. We are trying to find a way to avoid just throwing these people in the junk pile.

I have nothing against a solution, I just don't think there is one.

For the elderly there are some solutions that tackle isolation. For young people there are bars, dating sites, meetup groups, college, church etc etc. If you can't make that work I don't think there really is a tangible solution beyond accepting your situation, and making the best of it. But many of these people likely don't have the mental wherewithal to just accept it.

Bars? You realize these days the majority of people are non-drinkers?

Church? Once again, not an option for a lot of people.

Dating sites? If you've got the looks. And even then they're about extracting money, not about actually finding people. A dating site that actually works well loses it's customer base.

College is good for those at that age, useless for those who have already graduated. And at least when I was in college some fields were highly skewed.

I do agree there are things like meetup groups. I think that's probably one of the better things for them that has come along.

And you're still blaming: "don't have the mental wherewithal".

I can only speak from my own experience, and some guesses. Being a recent STEM graduate, back then in 1965, I had an advantage; a good paying job, an apartment, and a car. More assets than the average college boy. All the tools I had lacked before. I could take the women out to eat at a good restaurant, to local parks, etecera. It is always easier to succeed if you have the right tools.

Church was not an option. My lack of religion was not an asset, but a liability. OTOH, I would not want to have had a relationship with any highly religious woman.

I do not know how or if these incels would or could handle meetup groups. I also relied on blind dates. My social skills were good enough to tell from the git go if the night was a waste or not.

Many of these incels are probably older than college age. It does help to be articulate, even if you have no other assets, but I doubt these people are very articulate. .

 

[bilby]

You realize these days the majority of people are non-drinkers?

You're an American, aren't you?

I have my doubts that the majority of Americans these days are non-drinkers, though I am prepared to take your word for it. But I can assure you that your claim is wildly incorrect with regards to the rest of the OECD nations, or the rest of the world for that matter.

 

[lostone]

So should those who are unhappy just commit suicide?

No, they should find ways to be happy without a sexual relationship.

It's not an entitlement; If nobody wants to have a sexual relationship with you, (or more accurately, nobody you want to have a sexual relationship with wants to have a sexual relationship with you), then you don't get to have a sexual relationship.

How you cope with that is up to you, but it's not a problem that society is obliged to resolve by finding you someone to have a sexual relationship with.

Suicide is perhaps the most extreme and least sensible solution; It's certainly not the only one available, nor the best.

I doubt there's a polity in the history of civilisation where it hasn't been possible to pay for a brief and non-exclusive sexual relationship; And very few people are physiologically incapable of bringing themselves to orgasm without the assistance of a partner.

There are plenty of solutions; Demanding that someone be enslaved to your desires isn't one of them, in our modern society.

You seem to think there are only two polar opposites.

Can't there be a middle ground where society helps such people find relationships?

Sure. But not if they've pre-emptively decided to despise everyone. Which is the defining feature of an incel.

The first step towards a solution is to accept that you have a problem; Incels are (by definition) those who insist that they are fine, and that their failures are therefore everyone else's fault.

Indeed, we live in a society that helps people - any people - find relationships. There are a metric shit-tonne of websites dedicated to this, running the entire spectrum of possible relationships that someone might want, from long term marriage and children, through to casual no-strings sex, and every shade and permutation of interaction in between.

What society can do is put lonely people in touch with each other. What it cannot do is force people to enter into a relationship with someone they don't like. And Incels exalt in their unlikability. They want someone else to devote herself to them, but don't want to put in any effort on their own part. That's extremely unlikely to work.

You can even find mail order brides, or you could in the past. But even then, to make it work, you have to put in some effort.

 

[bilby]

Dating sites? If you've got the looks. And even then they're about extracting money, not about actually finding people. A dating site that actually works well loses it's customer base.

That's why you should use only those sites which don't charge fees.

The existence of, or even dominance of, for-profit scams, doesn't imply that all sites are for-profit scams.

 

[lostone]

Some of us are wise enough to realize that we not tens and not to expect to haul in a ten. You look for someone about the same level as you are, with some similar interests and opinions, and an equal number of assets and defects, and decide, over a period of time, with some time together, if the two of you can make it work. The hardest part is and always has been finding a way to make the contacts.

 

[bilby]

Some of us are wise enough to realize that we not tens and not to expect to haul in a ten. You look for someone about the same level as you are, with some similar interests and opinions, and an equal number of assets and defects, and decide, over a period of time, with some time together, if the two of you can make it work. The hardest part is and always has been finding a way to make the contacts.

The Internet has made this almost infinitely easier. Though with the downside that it's also enabling con-artists to make contact with easy marks, so a degree of caution is essential.