The Most Extraordinary ______ that Humanity has ever produced

[Toni]

First of all, We all have different tastes in movies. When I say "Godfather is #2" it goes without saying that I am giving MY opinion based on MY tastes and preferences.

Vertigo -- a trite and boring film -- to near the very top of many "best film" lists.

Wtf? You're mad. And wrong. Vertigo is the fourth greatest film ever put to screen.

The way you phrase this, without naming your #1, #2, #3 films, makes me wonder if you're referencing a slightly "authoritative" list which ranks it #4. I Googled just now trying to recall the specific list and this turned up:

Alfred Hitchcock's Vertigo has replaced Orson Welles's Citizen Kane at the top of a poll that sets out to name one film "the greatest of all time".
The British Film Institute's Sight and Sound magazine polls a selected panel once a decade and Citizen Kane has been its top pick for the last 50 years. This time 846 distributors, critics and academics championed Vertigo, about a retired cop with a fear of heights.

To support my claim that Vertigo is VASTLY over-rated, let's compare TWO Hitchcock-directed films, each about a man who wants to murder his wife, with the crime eventually solved by a detective. (For brevity I will write "Milland" to denote the character portrayed by Ray Milland, and so on.)

In Dial M for Murder Milland designs a clever approach to murder his wife, Kelly. In Vertigo the "perfect murder" plan makes no sense. It relies on Stewart NEVER seeing the husband at the critical time, NEVER getting a glimpse of the corpse, NEVER seeing Novak after the murder, and so on. Even with his disability, these "Nevers" could NOT be relied on. For example, it is most likely that a real-life Stewart would have stayed around to talk to investigators, and would have caught a glimpse of the corpse and seen that it was not Novak.

In Dial M for Murder the clever London detective solves the crime, tests his theory, explains all this to us. The movie ends with that detective proudly twirling his moustache. Vertigo's crime is solved only when Stewart chances upon Novak by coincidence. (And that scene is unrealistic; Stewart KNEW she was Novak, or an identical twin.) It makes zero sense. The whole reason for Stewart's involvement at all was to have a "witness" saying the wife had fallen to her death. But this "witness" had no idea what the wife looked like, and never viewed the corpse whose circumstance he was attesting to? Nonsensical!

The story in Dial M for Murder is interesting, partly because it is somewhat intricate. Vertigo -- What story? Man wants to kill his wife. He pushes her off the top of a building, after wasting GREAT effort -- it's almost all the whole movie is about -- setting up his old buddy Stewart in a nonsensical witnessing scenario.

Dial M for Murder has interesting scenes that contribute to the crime and its detection. Milland has a long conversation with an old college chum, coercing that guy into committing the murder. Vertigo? A typical scene is Stewart and Novak staring at the ocean. We stare at them wondering when one or both will get wet. Whippeee!

Dial M for Murder doesn't even appear oni some "Top 10 Hitchcock Films" lists, while Vertigo is rated #1 by the British Film Institute. This certainly proves that opinions differ!!

I am BAFFLED by Vertigo's high ranking. (It may be sexist for me to admit that some actresses are beautiful, but I do wonder if Kim Novak's photogenicity contributes to the high regard for this film.)

I didn't have any specific "list" in mind, my choice of number was arbitrary. I do think that Vertigo is a very good film though, which isn't to say that Dial M for Murder (and though you did not mention it, my other favorite Hitch films, Rope and Rear Window) are not.

If we're going to critique the man's ouevre, I feel that Psycho and The Birds make it a bit farther up these lists than they quite merit. Hitchcock is second to few when it comes to crafting a memorable scene, but patching those scenes together into a cohesive film doesn't always follow from there.

My favorite Hitchcock films are Rear Window and North by Northwest.

 

[southernhybrid]

These lists are obviously very subjective, so imo, the absolute best musical genius was Ray Charles. He did soul, rock, country and western, jazz. the blues and funk. He wrote many songs and had great background musicians. Despite being blind, he played the piano like nobody in at least he last 100 years. Sure, I like Mozart and Beethoven, but when it comes to more contemporary music, there was nobody like Ray, who I had the pleasure of seeing in concert three times. I think he won awards in at least three different categories of music one year. He wrote and performed a lot of music that most people never heard of. I have about 40 of his albums, so I'm right when it comes to Ray. Stevie Wonder is also amazing, but he's no Ray.

Greatest jazz artist goes to George Benson.The way he mixed vocals with his guitar is like nothing I've ever heard before. Sure, Dizzy Gillespie is a great one, but Benson has something for everybody, while Dizzy takes a certain type of taste to appreciate.

Aretha tops the list for best female soul singer. Nobody did it like her. Billie Holiday was obviously the greatest female jazz vocalist.

When it comes to funk, George Clinton does it best.

I lost my interest in Bob Dylan by the time I was about 18, but for nostalgia's sake I do have a copy of his first album. Sure, he had some good lyrics, but his music became boring after I reached adulthood. To each their own.

Pop science author? My favorite is the late Frans de Waal, who studied the great apes for most of his adult life and wrote many excellent books. But, I also love Neil deGrasse Tyson, especially his DVD about the old show "Cosmos". Plus he is on sexy dude, and my "personal astro physicist". I miss his show.

My favorite actor is Al Pacino and I have most of his movies on DVD. Not sure who my favorite actress might be. I'll have to think about that one.

Best comedic satire ever, "Blazing Saddles", followed by "History of the World Part 1". I guess I'd call Mel Brooks the greatest comedic satirist writer of all times. Too bad some people are too overly sensitive to appreciated his amazing work. The original comedy "Bedazzled" is high on my list too.

There are too many good stand up comedians to choose just one, but I do like Sarah Silverman, the late Robin Willians, and yes even Dave Chappel, who was the victim of cancel culture. I also put George Carlin and Richard Pryor on that list. Carlin might be my favorite, followed by Pryor.

Best drama. That's a hard one, but of course for me it will be a Pacino movie. Maybe "City Hall" or "Scent of a Woman" top my list.
Come to think of it, they are tied with "Shawshank Redemption" and "Amadeus". I can't choose just one.

Best tv show of my childhood years would have to be "The Twilight Zone". Best comedy show? Too many to name just one or two.

Gotta go. Might think of some more of my personal opinions later. Have fun arguing guys. Of course, my list is American. I'm one of those, so I don't know that much about those who are from other parts of the world. For example, I prefer the American version of "The Birdcage" to the original French version. it's cultural.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I didn't have any specific "list" in mind, my choice of number was arbitrary. I do think that Vertigo is a very good film though, which isn't to say that Dial M for Murder (and though you did not mention it, my other favorite Hitch films, Rope and Rear Window) are not.

If we're going to critique the man's ouevre, I feel that Psycho and The Birds make it a bit farther up these lists than they quite merit. Hitchcock is second to few when it comes to crafting a memorable scene, but patching those scenes together into a cohesive film doesn't always follow from there.

My favorite Hitchcock films are Rear Window and North by Northwest.

I haven't seen all of his films, but North by Northwest is great, but Shadow of a Doubt is my fav. Often, my one complaint about some Hitchcock films is the very ending sucks (see The Wrong Man)!

 

[southernhybrid]

Okay. One of my favorite actresses is Katherine Hepburn and we recently rewatched "On Golden Pond" another great drama, which is a lot more relatable in old age. Thinking of that, Jane Fonda and her dad, Henry Fonda belong in the great actor category too.

I like Betty Davis to some extent and watch the movie, "All About Eve" about once a year. That's my favorite Betty Davis movie.

Has anyone mentioned visual art. I'm not really into it, but I do love Monet and Matisse. Anyone have some favorites when it comes to visual art?

I was just thinking that this thread is at least getting our minds off of the felon for a little while, and that's a good thing.

 

[gmbteach]

I quit liked "The Bucket List". I think Jack Nicholson and Morgan Freeman did amazing in that film.

On the female side of singers - Karen Carpenter was pretty good. A lot of their early stuff was done when she was still a teenager.

 

[pood]

Has anyone mentioned visual art. I'm not really into it, but I do love Monet and Matisse. Anyone have some favorites when it comes to visual art?

Oh god so many, Picasso, Cezanne, Matisse, Van Gogh, Hopper, Rembrandt, Hoffman, Klein, Miro, Kokoschka, the guy who painted slabs of butchered meat and twisted human forms, name escapes me at the moment … Freud, Da Vinci, Rothko, list goes on … wouldn’t even try to rank them except Picasso is probably No. 1.

What about writers? My favorite contemporary American writer was Cormac McCarthy until he upped and died a couple of years ago at age 89. He made Hemingway’s stuff look like Dick and Jane.

 

[pood]

Chaim Soutine! That was the name that escaped me momentarily. Also can’t forget Munch.

 

[Politesse]

Has anyone mentioned visual art. I'm not really into it, but I do love Monet and Matisse. Anyone have some favorites when it comes to visual art?

Shocking no one who knows me, I'm sure.

 

[southernhybrid]

I quit liked "The Bucket List". I think Jack Nicholson and Morgan Freeman did amazing in that film.

On the female side of singers - Karen Carpenter was pretty good. A lot of their early stuff was done when she was still a teenager.

I like both of those actors a lot but I prefer Linda Ronstadt when it comes to female vocalists who didn't do jazz or soul. She was more of a country/rock crossover artist. When I think of my neighbor, I think of her hit song, "Poor Poor Pitiful Me". Those of you who have read my posts about my neighbor know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Swammerdami]

(I'm glad to see this thread is attracting responses. Most of my threads flop!)

I agree that Katherine Hepburn is an outstanding actress, maybe the best ever. But -- let me confess -- there are probably Hepburn movies I've missed while I'll watch anything with Nicole Kidman. Ms. Kidman is a good actress but probably not in Ms. Hepburn's league; I may enjoy watching her because she's lovely. (Is my obsession with female pulchritude a form of misogyny?)

Speaking of female pulchritude or sheer sexiness, nobody has extended that list beyond the obvious #1 Marilyn Monroe. Sophia Loren and Liz Taylor are beautiful, Audrey Hepburn and Hedy Lamarr are pretty, and so on, but my nomination is the very vivacious

#2 Rita Hayworth​

In fact her sheer vivaciousness may move her ahead of Miss Monroe herself.

Among male actors, pulchritude has little interest for me. Jack Nicholson, Humphrey Bogart, and Sean Penn are my favorites. I also like to watch Gene Hackman and several others, including Ed Harris, Steve Buscemi, Tommy Lee Jones, Harvey Keitel and even -- dare I admit it? -- .Nicholas Cage.

I am definitely NOT a connoisseur of painting but Picasso and Van Gogh are my favorites. I know even less about classical music but I think Mozart has never been equalled.

 

[Politesse]

Most people seem to be partisans for Mozart, Beethoven, or Bach. And everyone has a favorite of Mahler's symphonies. I don't think I would enjoy trying to "rank" sublime music, but I listen to Beethoven's 7th and 9th very often, and of Mahler, his Resurrection symphony. Mozart I sing in the shower. "Alle Bande der Natur Wenn nicht durch dich!"

 

[WAB]

Mahler's Resurrection symphony (2nd) is by far my favorite of his, and it's great to see it mentioned. He is, also by far, my favorite composer. Dvorak and Shostakovich are way up there.

Stupid spell checker changed Dvorak to "choral"...

...as far as female pulchritude, Molly Ephraim. oh, and Caroline Wozniacki.

 

[Swammerdami]

Tom Wolfe (1930-2018) was my favorite contemporary American writer, with Mark Twain my favorite American fiction writer of all time. Asimov's Second Foundation was my favorite sci-fi novel, though it's been about half a century since last I reread it.

Robert Frost and Edgar A. Poe are my favorite American poets. Guillaume Apollinaire is my favorite French poet, as might be guessed from my .signature.

I like some spy thrillers. I admire John le Carré's earliest novels, but my appreciation declined as his themes changed over the decades. I love Adam Hall's Quiller thrillers. Adam Hall is one of several pen-names of Elleston Trevor (itself a name adopted by Trevor Dudley-Smith (1920-1995)).

I know many people LOVE Adam Hall -- several hit movies have been produced from the Quiller novels -- yet it now seems IMPOSSIBLE to find ANY Adam Hall's in used book stores. ??? Could it be that those lucky to possess even a Quiller paperback regard it as too precious to sell for a pittance?

Has Adam Hall been disposed of in some "memory hole"? I Googled him just now and ZERO of the first-page references were about this great writer of spy thrillers. ETA: Googling with an added word yields superlative praise, e.g. https://spywrite.com/2019/09/11/in-praise-of-adam-hall-and-quiller/

 

[southernhybrid]

Most people seem to be partisans for Mozart, Beethoven, or Bach. And everyone has a favorite of Mahler's symphonies. I don't think I would enjoy trying to "rank" sublime music, but I listen to Beethoven's 7th and 9th very often, and of Mahler, his Resurrection symphony. Mozart I sing in the shower. "Alle Bande der Natur Wenn nicht durch dich!"

I love Mozart's Choral Mass in C minor. Since my Latin sucks, I don't understand the words, so the vocals are beautiful. I even love Gregorian chants. They are nice to listen to at bedtime when you want to hear something soothing.

I even love Italian opera, although I haven't listened to any lately. Puccini is my favorite of course and Mario Lanza had a beautiful voice. I'll have to think of some more of my favorite classical stuff. I have lots of classical albums, as I became interested in it as a young child, since it was the only music my mother would permit me to listen to, outside of that horrible religious shit that was used to indoctrinate us.

 

[southernhybrid]

(I'm glad to see this thread is attracting responses. Most of my threads flop!)

I agree that Katherine Hepburn is an outstanding actress, maybe the best ever. But -- let me confess -- there are probably Hepburn movies I've missed while I'll watch anything with Nicole Kidman. Ms. Kidman is a good actress but probably not in Ms. Hepburn's league; I may enjoy watching her because she's lovely. (Is my obsession with female pulchritude a form of misogyny?)

Speaking of female pulchritude or sheer sexiness, nobody has extended that list beyond the obvious #1 Marilyn Monroe. Sophia Loren and Liz Taylor are beautiful, Audrey Hepburn and Hedy Lamarr are pretty, and so on, but my nomination is the very vivacious

#2 Rita Hayworth​

In fact her sheer vivaciousness may move her ahead of Miss Monroe herself.

Among male actors, pulchritude has little interest for me. Jack Nicholson, Humphrey Bogart, and Sean Penn are my favorites. I also like to watch Gene Hackman and several others, including Ed Harris, Steve Buscemi, Tommy Lee Jones, Harvey Keitel and even -- dare I admit it? -- .Nicholas Cage.

I am definitely NOT a connoisseur of painting but Picasso and Van Gogh are my favorites. I know even less about classical music but I think Mozart has never been equalled.

As a woman, I see nothing wrong with enjoying what I refer to as "eye candy". There are plenty of sexy men that I enjoy looking at.

And, there is nothing wrong with fantasizing. Women do it all the time, so there is no reason why men can't fantasize. it's perfectly harmless. And have we talked about good books about sex? There are two outstanding books about female's fantasies. I have copies of both. One is called "Forbidden Flowers" and the other one is "My Secret Garden". Both were written by Nancy Friday. She asked hundreds of women about their sexual fantasies then put them in categories. But, they are just fantasies. Some women even said they had rape fantasies, but that doesn't mean they want to be raped. Fantasy is very different from reality. I read the books about 20 years ago. Of course the late Dr. Ruth did a lot of interesting work on sexuality. These women probably helped a lot of women feel more comfortable about their own sexuality. Come to think of it, I have a good book about Tantric sex that I've enjoyed from time to time. It's called "101 Nights of Tantric Sex" by Cassandra Lorius. A lot of people don't understand what it's really about. it's not about not having orgasms. It's more about prolonging the sexual experience and adding some rituals to it. At least that's what I remember from the book. Have I gone to far mentioning this topic? Hopefully not, as sexual experiences can be one of life's greatest joys. Well, at least for a lot of us. It took a long time before women felt comfortable discussing their sexual needs and enjoyment. I remember talking with some of my younger coworkers about sex. Women who studied and wrote about female sexuality were a big help for women, imo.

Since you like Marilyn Monroe, do you like the movie "Some Like it Hot"? That's my favorite Monroe movie. "How to Marry a Millionaire" is another good comedy with Monroe. I think she was best in her comedic roles.

Interesting that so many people like Picasso so much. I'm not one of them.

 

[Politesse]

Most people seem to be partisans for Mozart, Beethoven, or Bach. And everyone has a favorite of Mahler's symphonies. I don't think I would enjoy trying to "rank" sublime music, but I listen to Beethoven's 7th and 9th very often, and of Mahler, his Resurrection symphony. Mozart I sing in the shower. "Alle Bande der Natur Wenn nicht durch dich!"

I love Mozart's Choral Mass in C minor. Since my Latin sucks, I don't understand the words, so the vocals are beautiful. I even love Gregorian chants. They are nice to listen to at bedtime when you want to hear something soothing.

I even love Italian opera, although I haven't listened to any lately. Puccini is my favorite of course and Mario Lanza had a beautiful voice. I'll have to think of some more of my favorite classical stuff. I have lots of classical albums, as I became interested in it as a young child, since it was the only music my mother would permit me to listen to, outside of that horrible religious shit that was used to indoctrinate us.

I listened to plenty of classical music as a child, but that was very much expected in my family... my mother's side is a proud old British clan with a tendency to produce prodigies. Not always a good thing, but all the kids had an instrument. My mother also taught music, and had an extensive collection of records and cassettes of all manner of performances.

As a tyke, I liked more rambunctious music: Albinoni, Bizet, Liszt. These days I prefer a long symphony or opera I can turn on and tune out to.

 

[Politesse]

Ah. This thread has had trouble dragging unconditional superlatives out of me, but if there's a finer colaratura soprano than Sumi Jo now living, I'd certainly like to meet her.

 

[southernhybrid]

Ah. This thread has had trouble dragging unconditional superlatives out of me, but if there's a finer colaratura soprano than Sumi Jo now living, I'd certainly like to meet her.

I confess that I didn't even know who she was, so I just listened to her sing on a YouTube video. In my opinion, the late Anna Moffo had a more beautiful voice. I have a copy of "Madame Butterfly" where she sings the leading role. Anyway, I think it's kind of hard to compare outstanding opera singers. To become a famous opera singer, you have to be quite outstanding. I'll leave it at that and I will confess I rarely remember the names of opera singers. I just like listening to them at times.

To me, this thread is just a nice diversion from what's going on in the US, or for that matter, the rest of the world.

 

[Politesse]

To become a famous opera singer, you have to be quite outstanding.

Indeed! I was friends with a talented protégé soprano when we were both in college, and I will say that socializing with her made the physical and mental demands of that profession very poignant to me. I certainly never met a footballer or basketballer who lived such a tightly regimented life as she was obliged to do, nor ended the week looking quite so exhausted as dear Bev! She eventually won a regional singing competition and decided to accept it as her crowning achievement ... before changing majors and bowing out. Married and helped her husband run his business after that. Her maestra was most diappointed, but it is not a career one can do by halves, and she had other goals in life, you know?

 

[Swammerdami]

I Googled Sumi Jo and clicked on a YouTube. I know nothing of opera but found her impressive!

Miscellaneous music videos get recommended to me by YouTube and I often click and enjoy them. Here's a string duet that enraptured me. (Tina Guo's vivacity may have contributed to the grandeur of the music.)