The RFK Jr. Thread

[Ford]

I've heard crazy people screaming on the sidewalk that make more sense.

Also shows some other unhinged stuff like believing 1993 world trade center bombing as also orchestrated by the government.

Help me out here....RFK Jr. thinks the pandemic was "planned" by "the government." As Stein points out in the video, Trump was in charge of the government from 2017 throughout the entirety of the 2020 pandemic.

If it was a nefarious bio-weapon created by the government at the time, then...?

 

[Axulus]

I've heard crazy people screaming on the sidewalk that make more sense.

Also shows some other unhinged stuff like believing 1993 world trade center bombing as also orchestrated by the government.

Help me out here....RFK Jr. thinks the pandemic was "planned" by "the government." As Stein points out in the video, Trump was in charge of the government from 2017 throughout the entirety of the 2020 pandemic.

If it was a nefarious bio-weapon created by the government at the time, then...?

[Conspiracy hat] It was the deep state that acted in secret behind Trump's back. They hate him so they fight him at every turn and plot things in secret without his knowledge. They've also been plotting it for years even before Trump was president. [/conspiracy hat]

 

[Patooka]

It sounds scary, and that's all that matters to me.

What matters to me is my son born with mild autism and I would not wish disorder on any other other child or parent raising that child. Certainly not for the sake of pharmaceutical profits.

Mate, I was born with mild autism, though it wasn't diagnosed until I was in my forties. As a result, my school life was hell, and I wouldn't want anyone else to go through that.

However, as diagnosis is now routine, life with mild autism is not much of a hardship. The neurodivergent brain even has employment advantages in some fields (particularly computing).

And the real kicker? I was born at a time when measles vacination was typically done at the age of three and a half in my country, and I contracted the disease a few months before my vaccination was due, and nearly died from it. I was in a coma for nine days at the age of three, and there were genuine concerns that I might die, or be permanently blind, or suffer brain damage. I still have no brown fat - in that nine days of no food and only IV fluids I burned through my entire lifetime supply, so I really struggle with cold weather.

If my parents could have chosen in advance one disease that I would not get, knowing all the consequences of their choice, they would not have hesitated to get me vaccinated against measles earlier, even if doing so was a certain cause of my mild autism - which it couldn't have been, 'cause I was never vaccinated against measles.

Until the 1950s, measles killed hundreds of people, mostly children, every year in the UK. The first vaccinations for measles were given at three and a half years, before a child started school. The year I got it, thirty two people died (I was nearly the 33rd). Vaccinations were routinely given at 12 months from the late 1980s onwards, and measles deaths fell to an average of 1.8 per year in the 1990s. In the entire period from 1990 to 2017 there were 32 measles deaths in the UK - the same number as in the single year that I contracted the disease. (source)

Nobody in the 1950s, seeing thousands of dead children each year, was in any serious doubt that a vaccine was absolutely necessary, and even one with occasional deleterious side effects would have been welcomed. However, there is zero evidence of any link between vaccines and autism.

The only study ever to find a link between MMR vaccine and autism was authored by Andrew Wakefield, who stood to earn up to £43 million a year from the sale of test kits.

That's right - the link between vaccines and autism was a lie told for the sole purpose of the "pharmaceutical profits" you rightly despise as a motive.

Wakefield was struck off, and the paper withdrawn, but the legacy of his fraud lives on. The idea that there is any link is a dumb rumour started by a known fraudster, but (unlike the unprotected children it is harming) that rumor just will not die.

Props for you calling RVonse the M-word. I heard that hard T right through my monitor. It won't change our mate's mind however, unfortunately. Shills gotta shill.

 

[Torin]

There is an interesting news article in the WSJ today about RFK (there's a paywall, but I'll summarize):

https://www.wsj.com/health/healthcare/kennedy-trump-vaccines-covid-skeptics-cfdef1bd?mod=hp_lead_pos7

In summary, the article maintains that RFK's ascendancy is in large part a reaction to the arguments and policies of the COVID pandemic.

People were told that they could not run the businesses they depend on for their livelihood, and they had to inject themselves with vaccines on pain of losing their jobs, and so on. This was all presented in a doctrinaire manner that brooks no disagreement, because it was based on settled science, and you can't argue with science. So now, many Americans do not trust the medical and scientific establishment any more.

I think we're all going to be paying a high price as a result of RFK's rise to power. It might not have happened if the experts we depend on had been willing to slow down, listen to people, give clear explanations, and respect people's right to make decisions about their own lives and medical care.

Thoughts?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

There is an interesting news article in the WSJ today about RFK (there's a paywall, but I'll summarize):

https://www.wsj.com/health/healthcare/kennedy-trump-vaccines-covid-skeptics-cfdef1bd?mod=hp_lead_pos7

In summary, the article maintains that RFK's ascendancy is in large part a reaction to the arguments and policies of the COVID pandemic.

People were told that they could not run the businesses they depend on for their livelihood, and they had to inject themselves with vaccines on pain of losing their jobs, and so on. This was all presented in a doctrinaire manner that brooks no disagreement, because it was based on settled science, and you can't argue with science. So now, many Americans do not trust the medical and scientific establishment any more.

That is fairly inaccurate recounting of recent history. People were losing their minds by April. Didn't 70 to 80% of the nation still work during the pandemic? I know I didn't get one hour off because of the pandemic. CDC et al. were irresponsible in allowing restaurants to reopen. They got the mask thing going to also allow people to get out in public and reduce transmission because people were quickly losing their cool. Americans were eating scraps in America during WWII so we could feed the troops and people today couldn't manage a global pandemic.

I think we're all going to be paying a high price as a result of RFK's rise to power. It might not have happened if the experts we depend on had been willing to slow down, listen to people, give clear explanations, and respect people's right to make decisions about their own lives and medical care.

Thoughts?

The pandemic demonstrated that people aren't bright. Most people aren't getting science/engineering degrees. Let's be blunt, when a family goes to the hospital because a loved one is there, a family needs to indicate they have brains so the doctor can be scientific with them. Anthony Fauci was very bureaucratic, extremely deliberate with his statements, as in every word. But the people aren't bright, and they didn't get it. They didn't understand nuance. And then they listened to dumbass MMA wannabes and the like, which caused a shift among some people that did originally take it seriously. The know nothing Medical Justice Warriors poisoned the well.

We had a pandemic that the government said was an bad problem. Over 1 million Americans died from it, we have the excess death charts to prove it. Several cities had hospitals stuffed to the point that elective surgery was not available. NE Ohio peaked with Omicron and Delta at the same time and our ERs were crammed. The vaccine came out. Generally the word was the vaccine would help, not that it would cure. There was hope of cure, but line from the CDC wasn't that it'd be a cure and that very early on before the vaccine came out, boosters were already in discussion. The vaccine did work at reducing hospitalizations and deaths, but at least one magnitude. We have the stats to prove it.

Yet, some people think that Covid was a lie, that a lot of people didn't die, that the vaccine failed. People wanted to take alternative medicines that had no demonstrated link to treating Covid. At least one place was handing out livestock medicine! Why? Because that is what bullshit they were told via right-wing media, likely far left-wing websites. Covid was a test of our national intelligence, and we failed.

 

[Swammerdami]

General Jack D. Ripper was so upset about fluoridation he started a nuclear war: "I do not avoid women, Mandrake. But I do deny them my essence." Could this also be Bobby's problem?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The following article doesn't deal with RFKJr specifically, but does remind us how horrifying all this is.

A Hostile Takeover?

The President-Elect is testing the guardrails early.

outsidethebeltway.com

 

[Politesse]

Yet, some people think that Covid was a lie, that a lot of people didn't die, that the vaccine failed. People wanted to take alternative medicines that had no demonstrated link to treating Covid. At least one place was handing out livestock medicine! Why? Because that is what bullshit they were told via right-wing media, likely far left-wing websites. Covid was a test of our national intelligence, and we failed.

If you look at the history of epidemiology, it's mostly failures, but the moments of victory save millions of lives that would have otherwise been lost. It's grim but important business, and at a certain point you just have to learn what you can from the previous failure and design a better response the next time. COVID was both a success and a failure, but overall I think we were more successful in stemming the tide of the crisis than you are intimating here. Certainly, compared to its last mass pandemic, the COVID response in the US was damn near miraculous in its efficacy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yet, some people think that Covid was a lie, that a lot of people didn't die, that the vaccine failed. People wanted to take alternative medicines that had no demonstrated link to treating Covid. At least one place was handing out livestock medicine! Why? Because that is what bullshit they were told via right-wing media, likely far left-wing websites. Covid was a test of our national intelligence, and we failed.

If you look at the history of epidemiology, it's mostly failures, but the moments of victory save millions of lives that would have otherwise been lost. It's grim but important business, and at a certain point you just have to learn what you can from the previous failure and design a better response the next time. COVID was both a success and a failure, but overall I think we were more successful in stemming the tide of the crisis than you are intimating here. Certainly, compared to its last mass pandemic, the COVID response in the US was damn near miraculous in its efficacy.

The death tolls in Australia and New Zeeland imply America was a First World failure due to human nature and the irrepressible American sense of privilege.

 

[bilby]

Yet, some people think that Covid was a lie, that a lot of people didn't die, that the vaccine failed. People wanted to take alternative medicines that had no demonstrated link to treating Covid. At least one place was handing out livestock medicine! Why? Because that is what bullshit they were told via right-wing media, likely far left-wing websites. Covid was a test of our national intelligence, and we failed.

If you look at the history of epidemiology, it's mostly failures, but the moments of victory save millions of lives that would have otherwise been lost. It's grim but important business, and at a certain point you just have to learn what you can from the previous failure and design a better response the next time. COVID was both a success and a failure, but overall I think we were more successful in stemming the tide of the crisis than you are intimating here. Certainly, compared to its last mass pandemic, the COVID response in the US was damn near miraculous in its efficacy.

The death tolls in Australia and New Zeeland imply America was a First World failure due to human nature and the irrepressible American sense of privilege.

I addressed this in detail back in February 2023:

My state has seen 2,734 deaths from Covid, of which 8 occurred before restrictions were lifted in January of 2022.

Not a typo. Eight deaths in all of 2020 and 2021, in a state with 5.2 million people, whose first recorded case was in January 2020.

Two years of mandatory mask wearing in public, eight deaths. One and a sixth years of optional (but recommended) mask wearing in public, 2,726 deaths.

Anyone who says that restrictions (including, but not limited to, mandatory use of masks) are ineffective has to explain this small (580 times) difference in death rate per annum from Covid in Queensland.

We have a similar population to that of South Carolina, but approximately 10% of that state's total fatalities to date, demonstrating the value of locking down hard, until a sizeable fraction of our population had been vaccinated.

The much derided plan to lock down, vaccinate, and then slowly return to normal with the expectation that that would lead to fatalities, but far fewer of them than would've occurred without strict measures, has been completely vindicated by the facts.

Half-arsed measures didn't work. To people who have only the USA to look at, it's easy to imagine that the fact that half-arsed measures were ineffective is an indication that nothing should have been done. But it's equally supportive of the counter proposal that far more should have been done.

And a glance at places that did far more, would tell anyone that that's the right conclusion.

Of course, when accepting these facts would entail admitting that you lobbied for the needless deaths of millions of people, it can be very difficult to say "sorry, we were wrong". But it's something that must be said, if you are to avoid the same disaster next time around.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yet, some people think that Covid was a lie, that a lot of people didn't die, that the vaccine failed. People wanted to take alternative medicines that had no demonstrated link to treating Covid. At least one place was handing out livestock medicine! Why? Because that is what bullshit they were told via right-wing media, likely far left-wing websites. Covid was a test of our national intelligence, and we failed.

If you look at the history of epidemiology, it's mostly failures, but the moments of victory save millions of lives that would have otherwise been lost. It's grim but important business, and at a certain point you just have to learn what you can from the previous failure and design a better response the next time. COVID was both a success and a failure, but overall I think we were more successful in stemming the tide of the crisis than you are intimating here. Certainly, compared to its last mass pandemic, the COVID response in the US was damn near miraculous in its efficacy.

The death tolls in Australia and New Zeeland imply America was a First World failure due to human nature and the irrepressible American sense of privilege.

I addressed this in detail back in February 2023:

My state has seen 2,734 deaths from Covid, of which 8 occurred before restrictions were lifted in January of 2022.

Not a typo. Eight deaths in all of 2020 and 2021, in a state with 5.2 million people, whose first recorded case was in January 2020.

Two years of mandatory mask wearing in public, eight deaths. One and a sixth years of optional (but recommended) mask wearing in public, 2,726 deaths.

Anyone who says that restrictions (including, but not limited to, mandatory use of masks) are ineffective has to explain this small (580 times) difference in death rate per annum from Covid in Queensland.

We have a similar population to that of South Carolina, but approximately 10% of that state's total fatalities to date, demonstrating the value of locking down hard, until a sizeable fraction of our population had been vaccinated.

The much derided plan to lock down, vaccinate, and then slowly return to normal with the expectation that that would lead to fatalities, but far fewer of them than would've occurred without strict measures, has been completely vindicated by the facts.

Half-arsed measures didn't work. To people who have only the USA to look at, it's easy to imagine that the fact that half-arsed measures were ineffective is an indication that nothing should have been done. But it's equally supportive of the counter proposal that far more should have been done.

And a glance at places that did far more, would tell anyone that that's the right conclusion.

Of course, when accepting these facts would entail admitting that you lobbied for the needless deaths of millions of people, it can be very difficult to say "sorry, we were wrong". But it's something that must be said, if you are to avoid the same disaster next time around.

Yeah, but that doesn't count because Covid was simply too slow in Australia and people were dying of so many other causes: boxer jelly stings, drop bears, kangaroo hit and runs, vegamite ODs, generally just living in too close proximity to Australia.

 

[Elixir]

that doesn't count because Covid was simply too slow in Australia and people were dying of so many other causes: boxer jelly stings, drop bears, kangaroo hit and runs, vegamite ODs, generally just living in too close proximity to Australia.

True. Envenomations alone would wipe out South Carolina.

 

[bilby]

that doesn't count because Covid was simply too slow in Australia and people were dying of so many other causes: boxer jelly stings, drop bears, kangaroo hit and runs, vegamite ODs, generally just living in too close proximity to Australia.

True. Envenomations alone would wipe out South Carolina.

They already are:

https://www.fitsnews.com/2024/09/09...dler-fights-for-survival-after-venomous-bite/

 

[Swammerdami]

If you look at the history of epidemiology, it's mostly failures, but the moments of victory save millions of lives that would have otherwise been lost....

The death tolls in Australia and New Zeeland imply America was a First World failure due to human nature and the irrepressible American sense of privilege.

I addressed this in detail back in February 2023:

My state has seen 2,734 deaths from Covid, of which 8 occurred before restrictions were lifted in January of 2022.

Not a typo. Eight deaths in all of 2020 and 2021, in a state with 5.2 million people, whose first recorded case was in January 2020.
....

... Half-arsed measures didn't work. To people who have only the USA to look at, it's easy to imagine that the fact that half-arsed measures were ineffective is an indication that nothing should have been done. But it's equally supportive of the counter proposal that far more should have been done.

And a glance at places that did far more, would tell anyone that that's the right conclusion.

Of course, when accepting these facts would entail admitting that you lobbied for the needless deaths of millions of people, it can be very difficult to say "sorry, we were wrong". But it's something that must be said, if you are to avoid the same disaster next time around.

I wont hunt down a citation (and never saw an estimate of the relevant absolute numbers of "excess deaths") but studies showed that the death rate among Republicans was MUCH higher than among Democrats, at least after vaccines were available. The Ds followed science, while the Rs went out and bought bleach for injection or whatever.

Unfortunately the excess deaths among Republican voters were insufficient to save democracy.

 

[Elixir]

Found this … in fact I found it shocking. Trumpsucking is its own punishment.

“…research indicates that Republicans experienced a higher rate of excess deaths from COVID-19 compared to Democrats during the pandemic. A study covering Florida and Ohio found that registered Republicans had a 15% higher overall excess death rate than Democrats, which increased to 43% after vaccines became widely available in May 2021. This disparity was particularly pronounced in counties with lower vaccination rates, highlighting a correlation between political affiliation and vaccination attitudes impacting mortality outcomes…

 

[Politesse]

They are not afraid of death; they're "Christians", and have faith that their golden calf will save them.

 

[thebeave]

If you look at the history of epidemiology, it's mostly failures, but the moments of victory save millions of lives that would have otherwise been lost....

The death tolls in Australia and New Zeeland imply America was a First World failure due to human nature and the irrepressible American sense of privilege.

I addressed this in detail back in February 2023:

My state has seen 2,734 deaths from Covid, of which 8 occurred before restrictions were lifted in January of 2022.

Not a typo. Eight deaths in all of 2020 and 2021, in a state with 5.2 million people, whose first recorded case was in January 2020.
....

... Half-arsed measures didn't work. To people who have only the USA to look at, it's easy to imagine that the fact that half-arsed measures were ineffective is an indication that nothing should have been done. But it's equally supportive of the counter proposal that far more should have been done.

And a glance at places that did far more, would tell anyone that that's the right conclusion.

Of course, when accepting these facts would entail admitting that you lobbied for the needless deaths of millions of people, it can be very difficult to say "sorry, we were wrong". But it's something that must be said, if you are to avoid the same disaster next time around.

I wont hunt down a citation (and never saw an estimate of the relevant absolute numbers of "excess deaths") but studies showed that the death rate among Republicans was MUCH higher than among Democrats, at least after vaccines were available. The Ds followed science, while the Rs went out and bought bleach for injection or whatever.

Unfortunately the excess deaths among Republican voters were insufficient to save democracy.

It's really strange to me how not that long ago, it was the D's who were strongly anti-vaxxers, and the R's were the pro-vaxxers, particularly in my area of California. Marin County being the most prominent example. Now, since covid came on the scene, it has completely reversed. Was it TDS that caused this, or did Marin County liberals suddenly "find science"? Being familiar with Marin County (my dad, uncles, cousins and grandpa grew up there and I still have some 2nd cousins living in west Marin), I think its the former.

Marin County, An Anti-Vax Nexus Of California, Has Flipped To Team Science

California had more vaccine denial - not just on surveys, actual exemptions - than the rest of the US combined. Leading the way were coastal enclaves like wealthy Marin County, where people too rich for San Francisco moved. Some schools had only 25% of children vaccinated.

California was so anti-science that we had to engage in outreach efforts to push back during our entire first decade in existence. Thanks to legislators like Dr. Richard Pan, we got a law passed banning arbitrary exemptions. We were actually lucky that Governor Jerry Brown, who still remembered people getting Polio, was in office. If his successor, Gavin Newsom - who said he didn't need a mask in a Napa restaurant during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic because Napa didn't have a lot of COVID-19 cases - former mayor of San Francisco during the anti-vax craze, had been in office, we'd still be waiting.

Until 2021, anyway. Because in 2021, Republicans oddly flipped and embraced body autonomy and freedom of choice and declared they didn't want to take a COVID-19 vaccine.

Once the anti-vax movement became Republican I knew it was a matter of time before the Wakefield-era dominoes would fall among Democrats. And with Marin County gone, the last truly wealthy bastion of anti-vax sentiment is no more.

And there wasn't mass consumption of bleach by anyone during the pandemic to ward off covid-19 virus. That's fake news:

Did people really drink bleach to prevent COVID-19? A guide for protecting survey data against problematic respondents

Survey respondents who are non-attentive, respond randomly, or misrepresent who they are can impact the outcomes of surveys. Prior findings reported by the CDC have suggested that people engaged in highly dangerous cleaning practices during the COVID-19 pandemic, including ingesting household cleaners such as bleach. In our attempts to replicate the CDC’s results, we found that 100% of reported ingestion of household cleaners are made by problematic respondents. Once inattentive, acquiescent, and careless respondents are removed from the sample, we find no evidence that people ingested cleaning products to prevent a COVID-19 infection. These findings have important implications for public health and medical survey research, as well as for best practices for avoiding problematic respondents in all survey research conducted online.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I wont hunt down a citation (and never saw an estimate of the relevant absolute numbers of "excess deaths") but studies showed that the death rate among Republicans was MUCH higher than among Democrats, at least after vaccines were available. The Ds followed science, while the Rs went out and bought bleach for injection or whatever.

Unfortunately the excess deaths among Republican voters were insufficient to save democracy.

It's really strange to me how not that long ago, it was the D's who were strongly anti-vaxxers, and the R's were the pro-vaxxers, particularly in my area of California.

D's is broadbrushing. The far left, yes, they are anti-vaccine. What I found so peculiar was the marriage between the right-wing and the far-left wing during the Pandemic.

Marin County being the most prominent example. Now, since covid came on the scene, it has completely reversed. Was it TDS that caused this, or did Marin County liberals suddenly "find science"? Being familiar with Marin County (my dad, uncles, cousins and grandpa grew up there and I still have some 2nd cousins living in west Marin), I think its the former.

Marin County, An Anti-Vax Nexus Of California, Has Flipped To Team Science

Whatever it is, I'd be happy if they shifted from stupid to not stupid. It isn't easy to admit error.

California had more vaccine denial - not just on surveys, actual exemptions - than the rest of the US combined. Leading the way were coastal enclaves like wealthy Marin County, where people too rich for San Francisco moved. Some schools had only 25% of children vaccinated.

California was so anti-science that we had to engage in outreach efforts to push back during our entire first decade in existence. Thanks to legislators like Dr. Richard Pan, we got a law passed banning arbitrary exemptions. We were actually lucky that Governor Jerry Brown, who still remembered people getting Polio, was in office. If his successor, Gavin Newsom - who said he didn't need a mask in a Napa restaurant during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic because Napa didn't have a lot of COVID-19 cases - former mayor of San Francisco during the anti-vax craze, had been in office, we'd still be waiting.

Until 2021, anyway. Because in 2021, Republicans oddly flipped and embraced body autonomy and freedom of choice and declared they didn't want to take a COVID-19 vaccine.

Once the anti-vax movement became Republican I knew it was a matter of time before the Wakefield-era dominoes would fall among Democrats. And with Marin County gone, the last truly wealthy bastion of anti-vax sentiment is no more.

And there wasn't mass consumption of bleach by anyone during the pandemic to ward off covid-19 virus. That's fake news:

No. The President just indicated that doctors might look into how well disinfectant would work on Covid if injected. It was bad enough that makers of bleach stepped out in front of that one just to make it clear, doing such a thing was a bad idea. The thousand yard stare by Dr. Birx when Trump was making these statements told us enough. People did take livestock dewormer. Did take other medicines with no link to helping treat Covid-19, and making it a bit harder for people that needed the label use of said medications to access it themselves.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

There is an interesting news article in the WSJ today about RFK (there's a paywall, but I'll summarize):

https://www.wsj.com/health/healthcare/kennedy-trump-vaccines-covid-skeptics-cfdef1bd?mod=hp_lead_pos7

In summary, the article maintains that RFK's ascendancy is in large part a reaction to the arguments and policies of the COVID pandemic.

People were told that they could not run the businesses they depend on for their livelihood, and they had to inject themselves with vaccines on pain of losing their jobs, and so on. This was all presented in a doctrinaire manner that brooks no disagreement, because it was based on settled science, and you can't argue with science. So now, many Americans do not trust the medical and scientific establishment any more.

That is fairly inaccurate recounting of recent history. People were losing their minds by April. Didn't 70 to 80% of the nation still work during the pandemic? I know I didn't get one hour off because of the pandemic. CDC et al. were irresponsible in allowing restaurants to reopen. They got the mask thing going to also allow people to get out in public and reduce transmission because people were quickly losing their cool. Americans were eating scraps in America during WWII so we could feed the troops and people today couldn't manage a global pandemic.

I think we're all going to be paying a high price as a result of RFK's rise to power. It might not have happened if the experts we depend on had been willing to slow down, listen to people, give clear explanations, and respect people's right to make decisions about their own lives and medical care.

Thoughts?

The pandemic demonstrated that people aren't bright. Most people aren't getting science/engineering degrees. Let's be blunt, when a family goes to the hospital because a loved one is there, a family needs to indicate they have brains so the doctor can be scientific with them. Anthony Fauci was very bureaucratic, extremely deliberate with his statements, as in every word. But the people aren't bright, and they didn't get it. They didn't understand nuance. And then they listened to dumbass MMA wannabes and the like, which caused a shift among some people that did originally take it seriously. The know nothing Medical Justice Warriors poisoned the well.

We had a pandemic that the government said was an bad problem. Over 1 million Americans died from it, we have the excess death charts to prove it. Several cities had hospitals stuffed to the point that elective surgery was not available. NE Ohio peaked with Omicron and Delta at the same time and our ERs were crammed. The vaccine came out. Generally the word was the vaccine would help, not that it would cure. There was hope of cure, but line from the CDC wasn't that it'd be a cure and that very early on before the vaccine came out, boosters were already in discussion. The vaccine did work at reducing hospitalizations and deaths, but at least one magnitude. We have the stats to prove it.

Yet, some people think that Covid was a lie, that a lot of people didn't die, that the vaccine failed. People wanted to take alternative medicines that had no demonstrated link to treating Covid. At least one place was handing out livestock medicine! Why? Because that is what bullshit they were told via right-wing media, likely far left-wing websites. Covid was a test of our national intelligence, and we failed.

Why is it we always have to "listen to" and "understand" the people who are complete fucking nutjobs?

 

[Swammerdami]

I wont hunt down a citation (and never saw an estimate of the relevant absolute numbers of "excess deaths") but studies showed that the death rate among Republicans was MUCH higher than among Democrats, at least after vaccines were available. The Ds followed science, while the Rs went out and bought bleach for injection or whatever.

Unfortunately the excess deaths among Republican voters were insufficient to save democracy.

It's really strange to me how not that long ago, it was the D's who were strongly anti-vaxxers, and the R's were the pro-vaxxers, particularly in my area of California. Marin County being the most prominent example.

Apples with oranges. MMR vaccines operate against diseases which have become very rare. Herd immunity protects unvaccinated children. Not vaccinating one's kids might be a rational -- though anti-social -- decision.

This is NOT to defend anti-vaxers -- they should be condemned regardless of political stereotypes -- but it's absurd to compare reluctance to use the MMR vaccine with reluctance to take Covid-19 vaccine when that disease was readily apparent, and spreading quickly with often-lethal result.

I'm afraid Mr. beave has stretched to expose some of his own prejudices.

Now, since covid came on the scene, it has completely reversed. Was it TDS that caused this

Yep. "TDS". Is it "TDS" to worry about Trump's appointments? Or his behavior more generally? No, the deranged will point fingers at people in Marin who DID take Covid-19 vaccines without admitting that Trump has ever erred.

"TDS" is just some silly malapropism the gullible fall for when they watch too much Fox&Friends or InfoWars. A REAL disease is TDSDS -- the Syndrome describing people Deranged about "TDS."

And there wasn't mass consumption of bleach by anyone during the pandemic to ward off covid-19 virus. That's fake news:

Duuuh! You can't recognize my obvious sarcasm? Even swallowing -- let alone injecting -- significant amounts of bleach might lead to a visit to the emergency room. Even Fox&Friends would have told you so if that were really a major thing!

Of course it MIGHT have been a minor thing. We see the following on the website of the Michigan Poison & Drug Information Center:

Calls to poison centers have increased in a number of states following Donald Trump’s suggestion last week that disinfectants be considered a possible treatment for the novel coronavirus. Yes, people actually started ingesting disinfectants like Lysol last week. While Trump claimed his comment was sarcastic on Friday, he once again took no responsibility for the consequences resulting from his stupid remarks. When asked about the increase in people using disinfectants improperly, Trump replied: “I can’t imagine why,” during a White House news conference Monday. He failed to once again acknowledge the severe consequences his words have for some Americans.

Popular disinfectant companies like The Clorox Company and Reckitt Benkiser, the parent company of both Lysol and Dettol, quickly released statements emphasizing that their products should not be consumed. Despite warnings from healthcare providers and other officials, people acted on Trump’s advice and ingested chemicals, including bleach, across the country. In at least five states, poison centers reported they had an increase in calls within 18 hours of Trump’s broadcasted stupidity.

And -- I'm curious if thebeave would agree about this -- the fact that only a few thousand of the stupidest Trumpists took Trump's "sarcastic" advice does NOT excuse Trump's stupidity.

But while I've got your attention, thebeave, tell us this: Do you REALLY think Trump was being "sarcastic" when he made his ignorant comments about the virus and possible remedies?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I wont hunt down a citation (and never saw an estimate of the relevant absolute numbers of "excess deaths") but studies showed that the death rate among Republicans was MUCH higher than among Democrats, at least after vaccines were available. The Ds followed science, while the Rs went out and bought bleach for injection or whatever.

Unfortunately the excess deaths among Republican voters were insufficient to save democracy.

It's really strange to me how not that long ago, it was the D's who were strongly anti-vaxxers, and the R's were the pro-vaxxers, particularly in my area of California. Marin County being the most prominent example.

Apples with oranges. MMR vaccines operate against diseases which have become very rare. Herd immunity protects unvaccinated children. Not vaccinating one's kids might be a rational -- though anti-social -- decision.

This is NOT to defend anti-vaxers -- they should be condemned regardless of political stereotypes -- but it's absurd to compare reluctance to use the MMR vaccine with reluctance to take Covid-19 vaccine when that disease was readily apparent, and spreading quickly with often-lethal result.

I'm afraid Mr. beave has stretched to expose some of his own prejudices.

I quite disagree. Being against the MMR vaccine (especially if you got it as child oneself) is quite stupid and not that much different than against the Covid-19 vaccine. Yes Covid-19 was an immediate threat and measles, mumps, rubella, etc... are further back from being a direct threat, but that is due to constant immunization.

The far left has long had an issue with science. While some aspects they have about unregulated big business and science being manipulated for corporate gain are not unfounded, those issues do not trump the fact that immunizations are the second most important development in human history, just behind the Haber-Bosch process development.