The Soul

[Juma]

Science shows that the abrahamitic god as depicted in the bible is impossible. But you maybe meant something else?

Science can address individual claims, sure. And logic can evaluate contradicting claims, descriptions, definitions, quotations and public appearance schedules.

But the concept of god himself (or herself)(or themselves)(or Yargluffalooo) being supernatural, puts such things beyond the ability of science to measure or identify or disprove. Science being a tool to measure nature, it's just the wrong tool to measure divinity. Like using an ohmmeter to test the wind speed.

So it is an invalid concept. That is another way to prove nonexistens.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So it is an invalid concept. That is another way to prove nonexistens.

Just because science can't measure gods doesn't mean the concept is invalid. Just something outside of science's methodology.

The Books says rain is from when God opens the windows in the solid sky and that the weight of the rainwater would break clouds in two if God weren't lifting them up and holding them.
We can scientifically establish that the sky isn't solid, there are no windows and rain is not 'the waters above' falling down through clouds.
We can scientifically stablish that clouds are made up of water vapor and don't fall apart from the weight of the rain.
Those claims are disprovified.

But if the theist says that God decides when rain falls, what sort of experiment would you set up to exclude that a deity is involved at all?

 

[Juma]

So it is an invalid concept. That is another way to prove nonexistens.

Just because science can't measure gods doesn't mean the concept is invalid..

Yes it does. If it supposed to reference something that exist

 

[Barbarian]

Just because science can't measure gods doesn't mean the concept is invalid. Just something outside of science's methodology.

There's literally no other methodology. If 'science' can't measure gods, it means there are no conceivable ways a godless universe would differ from a godful one, and therefore there'd be no conceivable benefits assuming a godful universe, since no deduction, no experiment, no experience in such an universe would be different from those in godless ones. Worse, there's no other limits on such superfluous entities being invented from thin air, once you don't require them to be testable, which means we should equally reject all of them. So, no, if science can't measure gods, then gods don't exist for all meaningful interpretations of the word 'exists'.

Note that by 'science measuring something' I mean simply "action that is expected to have a different outcome if gods exist from the outcome when they don't", also I don't really care about what we can do _now_ in terms of measuring. Today's science is not tomorrow's science, and tomorrow's science is not the last word on science before the courtain falls.

 

[DLH]

Just because science can't measure gods doesn't mean the concept is invalid..

Yes it does. If it supposed to reference something that exist

Good luck with that, Keith . . . have fun!

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yes it does. If it supposed to reference something that exist

Good luck with that, Keith . . . have fun!

Not at all.
You're the one that came here specifically to prove that science is not so hot, an argument designed to dissuade the sciency atheists.

Tell us more about the failures of science. Therefore god.
You know, spoutin' off stupid shit anyway.

 

[DLH]

Good luck with that, Keith . . . have fun!

Not at all.
You're the one that came here specifically to prove that science is not so hot, an argument designed to dissuade the sciency atheists.

Tell us more about the failures of science. Therefore god.
You know, spoutin' off stupid shit anyway.

No, no, no. I came here to discuss the Bible. It just so happens you can't do that with skeptics because they have science.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Not at all.
You're the one that came here specifically to prove that science is not so hot, an argument designed to dissuade the sciency atheists.

Tell us more about the failures of science. Therefore god.
You know, spoutin' off stupid shit anyway.

No, no, no. I came here to discuss the Bible. It just so happens you can't do that with skeptics because they have science.

I'm having a hard time believing you follow the Bible and are just hijacking arguments from the web to fulfill a persona.

 

[Kharakov]

Not at all.
You're the one that came here specifically to prove that science is not so hot, an argument designed to dissuade the sciency atheists.

Tell us more about the failures of science. Therefore god.
You know, spoutin' off stupid shit anyway.

No, no, no. I came here to discuss the Bible. It just so happens you can't do that with skeptics because they have science.

You gotta remember, these guys are all afraid of even pretending the Bible is true- they think Bible belief is some sort of mental black hole, out of which no mind escapes once it enters the event horizon. Can't even dance around the singularity, or hear the music of the spheres, because you've got to be afraid the G will hold you in forever.

I just don't do it because I don't need some person telling me about God. You know, wtf you thinking? You going to educate ME?

- - - Updated - - -

No, no, no. I came here to discuss the Bible. It just so happens you can't do that with skeptics because they have science.

I'm having a hard time believing you follow the Bible and are just hijacking arguments from the web to fulfill a persona.

DLH isn't allowed to do that. It's prohibited by the intertube constitution. No role playing allowed.

 

[DLH]

No, no, no. I came here to discuss the Bible. It just so happens you can't do that with skeptics because they have science.

I'm having a hard time believing you follow the Bible and are just hijacking arguments from the web to fulfill a persona.

Why would you think that, because of my language? Do you think that King David, beloved of God, followed the Scripture? I mean he sent a good man to certain death so he could shag the guy's wife even when he had his own wives. And he did a lot of other things, but . . . people in the lands of Christendom think that if you "follow the Bible" you have to put on some show and almost always . . . behind the curtains there is a darkness fouler than the market square. That is one reason people feel to acknowledge the possibility that God exists is a trap for the mind, soul and body. It's perceived as an intellectual, spiritual and physical sort of lobotomy.

 

[DLH]

You gotta remember, these guys are all afraid of even pretending the Bible is true- they think Bible belief is some sort of mental black hole, out of which no mind escapes once it enters the event horizon. Can't even dance around the singularity, or hear the music of the spheres, because you've got to be afraid the G will hold you in forever.

I just don't do it because I don't need some person telling me about God. You know, wtf you thinking? You going to educate ME?

I know, I know . . . but even allowing for all of that very real predisposition you would think that it would make sense to them to get to know the enemy, so to speak. You want to prevent the prison of the mind, society, science and government? Don't just repeat their xenophobic history, educate yourself. If, the worst thing that could happen is that you reject the possible God you object to in an informed manner rather than an ignorant one what harm is it?

And I think that as true as your statement is, that there is something much deeper that that. Cultural, sociopolitical, traditional, intellectual even spiritual.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I'm having a hard time believing you follow the Bible and are just hijacking arguments from the web to fulfill a persona.

Why would you think that, because of my language? Do you think that King David, beloved of God, followed the Scripture? I mean he sent a good man to certain death so he could shag the guy's wife even when he had his own wives. And he did a lot of other things, but . . . people in the lands of Christendom think that if you "follow the Bible" you have to put on some show and almost always . . . behind the curtains there is a darkness fouler than the market square. That is one reason people feel to acknowledge the possibility that God exists is a trap for the mind, soul and body. It's perceived as an intellectual, spiritual and physical sort of lobotomy.

Well, that IS a new approach.
Most of the thumpers that come through here base their vulgarity on the atheists setting the precedent. They have a situational morality that they need be no better than the godless atheists they came to rant at. So they blame us for their language.

Having an ethical system no better than the heroes on display in the Holy The Books is at least original....
Do you also fuck your daughters like Lot did? Or would you at least feel okay as long as you did nothing worse?

 

[DLH]

Well, that IS a new approach.
Most of the thumpers that come through here base their vulgarity on the atheists setting the precedent. They have a situational morality that they need be no better than the godless atheists they came to rant at. So they blame us for their language.

Having an ethical system no better than the heroes on display in the Holy The Books is at least original....
Do you also fuck your daughters like Lot did? Or would you at least feel okay as long as you did nothing worse?

It is written that the scriptures are not to be used to do bad, and I don't think that way. I'm far from perfect but I'm real.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm having a hard time believing you follow the Bible and are just hijacking arguments from the web to fulfill a persona.

Why would you think that, because of my language?

No. Because of the general jaggedness of your posts. Your posts don't have a consistency.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Well, that IS a new approach.
Most of the thumpers that come through here base their vulgarity on the atheists setting the precedent. They have a situational morality that they need be no better than the godless atheists they came to rant at. So they blame us for their language.

Having an ethical system no better than the heroes on display in the Holy The Books is at least original....
Do you also fuck your daughters like Lot did? Or would you at least feel okay as long as you did nothing worse?

It is written that the scriptures are not to be used to do bad,

So you carefully redefine your good/bad boundaries and continue to do what you want to do, no matter what anyone else might think scripture says.

 

[DLH]

It is written that the scriptures are not to be used to do bad,

So you carefully redefine your good/bad boundaries and continue to do what you want to do, no matter what anyone else might think scripture says.

So, no matter what I say it must be a terrible thing because, what? I don't think like you, or there are people who think like me that are politically but fairly in opposition to a few social issues you feel emotionally fixated with, or is it that you are afraid God is going to control you, because I've looked at every other possibility and it's all bullshit. Everything every atheist has ever told me regarding the answer to that question - like as if by rote - was a fucking lie. You want to be the first? You want to be the first to tell the truth?

Why do atheists pretend not to believe in God?

 

[bilby]

So you carefully redefine your good/bad boundaries and continue to do what you want to do, no matter what anyone else might think scripture says.

So, no matter what I say it must be a terrible thing because, what? I don't think like you, or there are people who think like me that are politically but fairly in opposition to a few social issues you feel emotionally fixated with, or is it that you are afraid God is going to control you, because I've looked at every other possibility and it's all bullshit. Everything every atheist has ever told me regarding the answer to that question - like as if by rote - was a fucking lie. You want to be the first? You want to be the first to tell the truth?

Why do atheists pretend not to believe in God?

For the same reason that you pretend not to believe in leprechauns.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So you carefully redefine your good/bad boundaries and continue to do what you want to do, no matter what anyone else might think scripture says.

So, no matter what I say it must be a terrible thing because, what?

I didn't say that.
Clearly, you're going to do whatever it is you want to do, and you'll interpret the Books as necessary to support it.
Good, bad, swearing, plagiarism. Any good bible-follower can find scripture to support whatever they want.

I don't think like you, or there are people who think like me that are politically but fairly in opposition to a few social issues you feel emotionally fixated with,

No, you just think like an online apologist.

or is it that you are afraid God is going to control you,

No. He has to get in line behind Darth Vader. I'm really afraid of Darth Vader.

because I've looked at every other possibility and it's all bullshit.

Sure.

Everything every atheist has ever told me regarding the answer to that question - like as if by rote - was a fucking lie.

Okay.

You want to be the first? You want to be the first to tell the truth?

Why? Are you prepared to hear truth or will you just filter it through your already championed biased beliefs?

Why do atheists pretend not to believe in God?

Ah. Well, that's an answer.

No, we don't pretend not to believe in any of the gods.
We don't believe in any of the gods offered by mankind which appear, to us, to have been crafted as answers to questions spawned by their ignorance and tailored to their societal needs.

I don't believe that the nature of the universe demands a supernatural explanation for its existence.

I believe mankind is more than capable of creating moral codes, so the existence of morality does not demand a supernatural sponsor.

I personally believe in an afterlife, due to very subjective experiences, but i see no sign that there's an overarching supervisor to the process, thus no need for a deity to explain it.

I do not find coincidence, ignorance, hope, really-really-poor math skills or self-serving views of history to be inexplicable unless one accepts the idea of divine oversight.

There are other offered reasons for belief that i've rejected. I can't find the formal list i made about 20 years ago, though. But feel free to offer them, we'll see if they work.

 

[DLH]

Keith So you carefully redefine your good/bad boundaries and continue to do what you want to do, no matter what anyone else might think scripture says.

DLH So, no matter what I say it must be a terrible thing because, what?

Keith I didn't say that.
Clearly, you're going to do whatever it is you want to do, and you'll interpret the Books as necessary to support it.

DLH There it is again. Which is it? First you say I'll do whatever I want no matter what anyone else thinks scripture says then you say I'll do whatever I want and interpret the Books necessary to support it. The next thing you know you will be telling me I can't think for myself and have to do whatever the Books or everyone else thinks the Books say. Any way that puts a negative spin on what I'm doing which is the same thing you're doing. Whatever we want to.

Keith Good, bad, swearing, plagiarism. Any good bible-follower can find scripture to support whatever they want.

DLH So, the atheists think that it's silly for the theist to need scripture to support the good, bad, swearing and plagiarism that they, the atheists, don't need to do those things, is that what it is?

Keith No, you just think like an online apologist.

DLH Ahhh . . . I get it. It doesn't really matter what I think because I'm an online apologist. There is something I'm getting in the way of? Let me see . . . atheist . . . theist . . . a . . . theist . . . atheist . . . OH! I'm getting in the way of y'all talking about me!

 

[Sajara]

You are projecting DLH.

We aren't attacking you first off. For all intents and purposes, you're probably a great guy. I probably would have no issues being your friend in real life.

Having said that, your beliefs are different than ours. You came here trying to defend the Bible to a bunch of atheists. The thing is, most of us have read the Bible, and the Quran several times from cover to cover. (Personally I've read the Bible twice but the Quran here and there as it was just too....meh to read cover to cover). We've been discussing everything you've thrown at us on these boards for years (many people for decades).

So when we say we've seen it, we know about it, we're not attacking you. We've just been down this road before. Your beliefs aren't bad unless you are trying to legislate against others based on those beliefs. Personally, I'm all for protecting your rights to believe whatever you want to...or don't want to.


To paraphrase a famous quote: Tell me why disregard all the other Gods but yours, and I'll tell you why I disregard yours too.