The southern US border is insane right now.

[Patooka]

So says Mark Zuckerberg, the indigenous people of Martha's estate, and all the other hypocrit liberals out there. "It's great for everyone else to be over run with outsiders but we want our walls around our vast Hawaiian estates and borders so we don't have to deal with those other folks. Because those folk don't bother us at all if they give us cheap services as long as they stay down there in Texas."

Um...what?

Apparently the people at Martha's Vineyard* are hypocrites** because when illegals were unceremoniously kidnapped and dumped at Martha's Vineyard the resident's first instinct was to feed them, care for them and make sure they had a place to stay for the night. And they were invited back for a reunion a few weeks ago, fully funded by the residents So, hypocrites when it comes to immigration using RVonse's logic.

Actually, on second thought I have no idea what the fuck RVonse is talking about either.


*I'm assuming that's what RVonse was referring to when he talks about "Martha's estate"

**I assume that's what RVonse meant when he said "hypocit"

EDIT: Just saw RVonse's post, I can't be fucked quoting it. Here's why it's bullshit

Martha's Vineyard takes in 50 migrants sent unexpectedly by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis

DeSantis said his office organized the migrants' journey to Massachusetts as part of his state's relocation program.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[RVonse]

I will say that I actually do have some concerns about enormous influxes of immigrants from emerging nations. My concerns are more along the lines of observing that many people from parts of Europe, Asia, Africa and many of the countries south of the Rio Grande are much more socially conservative compared with, well, me. Attitudes towards women’s rights, LGBTQ+ rights in general lag by about 50 years or more.

I’m also concerned that many immigrants will be employed at very low wages, making it difficult for them to become self sufficient and worse, that poor working conditions will leave them vulnerable to exploitation by unscrupulous employers. And at least initially, there is a very significant financial burden on schools as well as hospitals, and other institutions who must provide services to students and patients who do not speak English or do not speak it not well.

You are 100% correct both of your paragraphs. Mexico and South American cultures are much more conservative and mostly still faithful to the Catholic religion. After one generation it would not surprise me in the least if the democrats new voters become a more conservative block than what the current republicans are today.

 

[Politesse]

I will say that I actually do have some concerns about enormous influxes of immigrants from emerging nations. My concerns are more along the lines of observing that many people from parts of Europe, Asia, Africa and many of the countries south of the Rio Grande are much more socially conservative compared with, well, me. Attitudes towards women’s rights, LGBTQ+ rights in general lag by about 50 years or more.

I’m also concerned that many immigrants will be employed at very low wages, making it difficult for them to become self sufficient and worse, that poor working conditions will leave them vulnerable to exploitation by unscrupulous employers. And at least initially, there is a very significant financial burden on schools as well as hospitals, and other institutions who must provide services to students and patients who do not speak English or do not speak it not well.

You are 100% correct both of your paragraphs. Mexico and South American cultures are much more conservative and mostly still faithful to the Catholic religion. After one generation it would not surprise me in the least if the democrats new voters become a more conservative block than what the current republicans are today.

Depends how you define "conservative". I don't see any Latinx people endorsing the violent overthrow of the government, or spreading conspiracy theories about pizzerias draining child sex slaves to make magical de-aging serum for celebrities. If the shift of generations can at least get us back to a situation where we are discussing disagreements of policy, that would count as a win to me, relative to the anti-democratic, anti-republican insanity that "conservatism" has become today.

But I also think you and Toni are relying more on macroregional stereotypes than fact, here. Just because someone is Catholic doesn't mean they are going to parrot the US Christian Conservative coalition. Mexico has for the past century characteristically ahead of its northern neighbors on civil rights, despite being more conservative in social habits. You can have conservative personal values without weaponizing the government to impose them on other people.

 

[Toni]

I will say that I actually do have some concerns about enormous influxes of immigrants from emerging nations. My concerns are more along the lines of observing that many people from parts of Europe, Asia, Africa and many of the countries south of the Rio Grande are much more socially conservative compared with, well, me. Attitudes towards women’s rights, LGBTQ+ rights in general lag by about 50 years or more.

I’m also concerned that many immigrants will be employed at very low wages, making it difficult for them to become self sufficient and worse, that poor working conditions will leave them vulnerable to exploitation by unscrupulous employers. And at least initially, there is a very significant financial burden on schools as well as hospitals, and other institutions who must provide services to students and patients who do not speak English or do not speak it not well.

You are 100% correct both of your paragraphs. Mexico and South American cultures are much more conservative and mostly still faithful to the Catholic religion. After one generation it would not surprise me in the least if the democrats new voters become a more conservative block than what the current republicans are today.

Depends how you define "conservative". I don't see any Latinx people endorsing the violent overthrow of the government, or spreading conspiracy theories about pizzerias draining child sex slaves to make magical de-aging serum for celebrities. If the shift of generations can at least get us back to a situation where we are discussing disagreements of policy, that would count as a win to me, relative to the anti-democratic, anti-republican insanity that "conservatism" has become today.

But I also think you and Toni are relying more on macroregional stereotypes than fact, here. Just because someone is Catholic doesn't mean they are going to parrot the US Christian Conservative coalition. Mexico has for the past century characteristically ahead of its northern neighbors on civil rights, despite being more conservative in social habits. You can have conservative personal values without weaponizing the government to impose them on other people.

I am absolutely over-generalizing. Virtually every Catholic I know believes in birth control; many believe that women have the right to chose abortion and at least two I know have had abortions themselves. Most are at the very least accepting of LGBTQ+ rights. Most people I know who identify as Christian are the same. But I certainly know plenty of Christian’s who are vehemently anti-abortion and not that accepting of LGBTQ+ people or issues. At the same time as being very ‘pro-life’ they adamantly advocate for gun rights —and a disturbing number are Trump supporters. Of course I find even one Trump supporter disturbing….

But as a group, most Catholics are at least anti-abortion, even if many are generally or even extremely supportive of LGBTQ+ individuals, at least in theory. Still many people from many different cultures and religions are not supportive of equal rights; racism is not confined to white people or Americans and a disturbing portion of the world is not supportive of equal rights for women.

Every concern I mentioned was just that: a concern. I don’t see any of those concerns to be a reason to oppose immigration from any group, even those groups I disagree with vehemently.

What does concern me in general is that we used to assume that the USA was a melting pot —that people came here to be Americans and to accept our laws, philosophy, etc. and st least embrace the idea of equal rights for all. And open up cool restaurants, of course. Now we apparently need laws against discriminating against people due to their caste. I don’t expect 1 out of 10 Americans born in the USA even know what that means. Post 9/11, to a disturbing percentage of my fellow citizens, brownish skin meant Al Qaida, regardless of where the person was born or what their heritage.

For the most part, I’m really only concerned about community resources being stretched too thin as they attempt to provide needed support for new arrivals. But yes, I really am concerned about our country becoming more conservative with regards to social issues.

If the GOP ever gets over their racusm and xenophobia enough to realize how much many immigrants agree with their policies, it’s back to the 50’s for us.

 

[laughing dog]

I have a question for RVonse. If letting the free market run monetary policy instead of the FED solves inflation, wouldn’t letting the free market (I.e. open borders solve the immigration problem?

 

[bilby]

Are there emigrant/immigrant numbers for every nation on the planet? Is the U.S. numero uno when it comes to people wishing to come hither? If it is I'm rather proud of that fact.

And what country brings up the bottom of the list? Maybe Putinstan?

According to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_net_migration_rate

The USA is 36th in the world, with a +3.2 net annual migration rate per 1000 residents on average for 2010-15, and a projected average rate of +2.9 (still in 36th place) in 2015-2020.

The USA has lower rates of net migration per 1000 residents than New Zealand, the UK, Sweden, Belgium, Singapore, Ireland, Australia, Germany or Canada.

The top five nations in 2010-15 were Qatar, Oman, Lebanon, Kuwait, and Maldives; And in 2015-20 were Bahrain, Maldives, Oman, Luxembourg, and Qatar.

The bottom five, with the highest net outflow of residents in 2010-15, were Syria, Tonga, Central African Repulic, Nepal and Eritrea; And in 2015-20, were Puerto Rico, Syria, Venezuela, South Sudan and Eritrea.

The US has (according to these figures) fewer migrants arriving than most OECD nations, and the trend was downward rather than upward.

There's certainly nothing here that makes the USA stand out, and she is far from being number one in the world.

 

[Ford]

The date when Whites become a minority in America could easily move up from 2045 to 2035

This apparently bothers you quite a bit. Why is that?

Simply that it shows the trend is much more than most think it is.

Why is that trend worth pointing out? It doesn’t bother me at all.

So says Mark Zuckerberg, the indigenous people of Martha's estate, and all the other hypocrit liberals out there. "It's great for everyone else to be over run with outsiders but we want our walls around our vast Hawaiian estates and borders so we don't have to deal with those other folks. Because those folk don't bother us at all if they give us cheap services as long as they stay down there in Texas."

Um...what?

The Story Behind DeSantis’s Migrant Flights to Martha’s Vineyard (Published 2022)

Asylum seekers in Texas were recruited for the flights by a woman who appeared to be a former Army counterintelligence agent. “We were tricked,” one migrant said.

www.nytimes.com

dumping dozens of asylum seekers on the doorstep of Northeastern Democrats who have resisted calls to clamp down on immigration.
Those dumped asylum seekers did not last long at all at Martha's Vinyard for some reason.

The article is behind a paywall, but I must again ask...um, what?

To clarify, what the fuck does this have to do with Mark Zuckerberg? Do you just throw his name out there like "George Soros" to say "see? It was tha Jooz!"?

And the reason the people who were human trafficked to Martha's Vineyard "didn't last long," is because the community didn't have the facilities to take care of them. Which is a big reason why they were sent there...cruelty and spite. But I guess cruelty and spite is just fine in your book so long as the victims are brown.

But in case you missed it, those well-off white liberals on MV did everything they could to take care of the victims of Rhonda and Gregg's racist shitfuckery until they could be taken in by more well-equipped organizations. Instead of calling security and having the poor brown people kicked out, they took them in, fed them, and gave them whatever aid was available. You are trying to make this into a "rich libs don't want 'those people' around" thing, but they did the right thing, aiding refugees to the best of their ability.

I bet your ideal solution would involve train cars and camps where these people can be "concentrated."

 

[RVonse]

I have a question for RVonse. If letting the free market run monetary policy instead of the FED solves inflation, wouldn’t letting the free market (I.e. open borders solve the immigration problem?

That is a good question and does deserve further thought. The big difference I see right away is that the fed has monopoly control of US economic policy which (because of the reserve dollar) has monopoly control over the world. Which is a far different situation than borders because the US is just 1 country out of many in the world. If all of the countries in the world suddenly had "open and free borders" I could see how a free flow of people might indeed solve many issues. But that isn't current reality because very large (population) countries like China and Japan have much tighter control over their borders.

So I see opening all our borders kind of like the trade argument. Perfectly free trade would be fine if everyone had it. But they don't and never will, so it isn't.

 

[RVonse]

The date when Whites become a minority in America could easily move up from 2045 to 2035

This apparently bothers you quite a bit. Why is that?

Simply that it shows the trend is much more than most think it is.

Why is that trend worth pointing out? It doesn’t bother me at all.

So says Mark Zuckerberg, the indigenous people of Martha's estate, and all the other hypocrit liberals out there. "It's great for everyone else to be over run with outsiders but we want our walls around our vast Hawaiian estates and borders so we don't have to deal with those other folks. Because those folk don't bother us at all if they give us cheap services as long as they stay down there in Texas."

Um...what?

The Story Behind DeSantis’s Migrant Flights to Martha’s Vineyard (Published 2022)

Asylum seekers in Texas were recruited for the flights by a woman who appeared to be a former Army counterintelligence agent. “We were tricked,” one migrant said.

www.nytimes.com

dumping dozens of asylum seekers on the doorstep of Northeastern Democrats who have resisted calls to clamp down on immigration.
Those dumped asylum seekers did not last long at all at Martha's Vinyard for some reason.

The article is behind a paywall, but I must again ask...um, what?

To clarify, what the fuck does this have to do with Mark Zuckerberg? Do you just throw his name out there like "George Soros" to say "see? It was tha Jooz!"?

And the reason the people who were human trafficked to Martha's Vineyard "didn't last long," is because the community didn't have the facilities to take care of them. Which is a big reason why they were sent there...cruelty and spite. But I guess cruelty and spite is just fine in your book so long as the victims are brown.

But in case you missed it, those well-off white liberals on MV did everything they could to take care of the victims of Rhonda and Gregg's racist shitfuckery until they could be taken in by more well-equipped organizations. Instead of calling security and having the poor brown people kicked out, they took them in, fed them, and gave them whatever aid was available. You are trying to make this into a "rich libs don't want 'those people' around" thing, but they did the right thing, aiding refugees to the best of their ability.

I bet your ideal solution would involve train cars and camps where these people can be "concentrated."

Because Mark Zuckerberg of all people single handedly buys out the last election with his $millions of donations to the democratic party. Because like all the other tech mega goons, he loves immigration at any cost because that benefits his company. But he sure doesn't want any of those same people anywhere near himself in his real life where he lives in Hawaii. He has nice big borders around his property to make sure that does not happen.

And the mega rich community of Martha's vineyard had more than enough personal resources to care for the asylum seekers if they wanted. For starters, they could have opened up some of the 50 spare bedrooms of their mansions if they had wanted.

These liberal people exhibit the typical hypocrisy of Klaus Swabb. We must protect the world environment, so everyone else in the world should eat bugs while I fly around in my jet leaving the same carbon footprint as 10k people!

 

[Patooka]

I didn't realise it was Martha's Vineyard and not the Federal Government who is obligated to process asylum seekers. How about that?

Someone needs to explain to me what Klaus Swabb has to do with fabricating facts about the border though, I'm completely lost on that one.

 

[EricH]

I bet your ideal solution would involve train cars and camps where these people can be "concentrated

There was another thread where a poster was advocating for work camps to house migrant refugees. Apparently they could contribute to the economy by providing free labor in return for housing at said camps, and I don't recall if the migrants had any say in the matter.
Some people never learn.

 

[laughing dog]

I have a question for RVonse. If letting the free market run monetary policy instead of the FED solves inflation, wouldn’t letting the free market (I.e. open borders solve the immigration problem?

That is a good question and does deserve further thought. The big difference I see right away is that the fed has monopoly control of US economic policy which (because of the reserve dollar) has monopoly control over the world. Which is a far different situation than borders because the US is just 1 country out of many in the world. If all of the countries in the world suddenly had "open and free borders" I could see how a free flow of people might indeed solve many issues. But that isn't current reality because very large (population) countries like China and Japan have much tighter control over their borders.

So I see opening all our borders kind of like the trade argument. Perfectly free trade would be fine if everyone had it. But they don't and never will, so it isn't.

First, since economic policy also involves fiscal policy, the Fed does not have monopoly control of US economic policy. Second, internationally the dollar is a reserve currency but that does not give the Fed monopoly control because there are substitutes.

As to the free border analysis, if China had free and open borders there would probably be a net outflow of people. Furthermore, if everyone had free trade, the domestic losers would still agitate for protection. Finally, unions are literally an example of a restraint of free trade in labour, yet I believe you are in favour of unions.

 

[bilby]

Second, internationally the dollar is a reserve currency but that does not give the Fed monopoly control because there are substitutes.

Indeed, all freely traded currencies are directly interchangeable, so the use of the US Dollar as the default is purely an arbitrary matter of convenience. The US Dollar is a stable currency with a large population of users. There's no particular reason to charge, but if the world decided to move to the euro, it would just do so - and any impact on the US Dollar would be purely psychological, and likely very short term.

Instability in the dollar could inspire the use of a more stable currency, rather than vice-versa (a change of reserve currency causing instability in the dollar).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don’t think our gov’t has a clue about how to effectively deal with our border .

I agree. So why do we have to pay federal taxes if they can not do anything right and do not even have a clue what to do? About the only thing the federal government does competently these days is the post office and the FAA.... but those departments are paid for by buying stamps and paying fees at the airport. I feel over taxed and under represented.

Note that most of the incompetence of the government is deliberate obstructionism by the Republicans who don't want it to work properly.

As for the post office--remember the recent issue with the Republicans deliberately sabotaging it to mess with mail in ballots?

And the FAA isn't funded by the airport fees. Airport fees pay for airports, there's a security fee to fund TSA but the FAA itself isn't funded this way. Nor is it exactly competent--there is serious problems with not adapting new technology.

As for an organization that works--the US Park Service seems to do a pretty good job. That is, except for the parts that Congress has forced them to outsource.

There is a right-wing anti-Federal sentiment because the government stops a lot of their excesses.

 

[Ford]

The date when Whites become a minority in America could easily move up from 2045 to 2035

This apparently bothers you quite a bit. Why is that?

Simply that it shows the trend is much more than most think it is.

Why is that trend worth pointing out? It doesn’t bother me at all.

So says Mark Zuckerberg, the indigenous people of Martha's estate, and all the other hypocrit liberals out there. "It's great for everyone else to be over run with outsiders but we want our walls around our vast Hawaiian estates and borders so we don't have to deal with those other folks. Because those folk don't bother us at all if they give us cheap services as long as they stay down there in Texas."

Um...what?

The Story Behind DeSantis’s Migrant Flights to Martha’s Vineyard (Published 2022)

Asylum seekers in Texas were recruited for the flights by a woman who appeared to be a former Army counterintelligence agent. “We were tricked,” one migrant said.

www.nytimes.com

dumping dozens of asylum seekers on the doorstep of Northeastern Democrats who have resisted calls to clamp down on immigration.
Those dumped asylum seekers did not last long at all at Martha's Vinyard for some reason.

The article is behind a paywall, but I must again ask...um, what?

To clarify, what the fuck does this have to do with Mark Zuckerberg? Do you just throw his name out there like "George Soros" to say "see? It was tha Jooz!"?

And the reason the people who were human trafficked to Martha's Vineyard "didn't last long," is because the community didn't have the facilities to take care of them. Which is a big reason why they were sent there...cruelty and spite. But I guess cruelty and spite is just fine in your book so long as the victims are brown.

But in case you missed it, those well-off white liberals on MV did everything they could to take care of the victims of Rhonda and Gregg's racist shitfuckery until they could be taken in by more well-equipped organizations. Instead of calling security and having the poor brown people kicked out, they took them in, fed them, and gave them whatever aid was available. You are trying to make this into a "rich libs don't want 'those people' around" thing, but they did the right thing, aiding refugees to the best of their ability.

I bet your ideal solution would involve train cars and camps where these people can be "concentrated."

Because Mark Zuckerberg of all people single handedly buys out the last election with his $millions of donations to the democratic party.

What color is the sky in your world? Because when you assert that he "single handedly" bought out the last election with his "millions" of donations, I can only surmise you live in some sort of alternate reality.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are there emigrant/immigrant numbers for every nation on the planet? Is the U.S. numero uno when it comes to people wishing to come hither? If it is I'm rather proud of that fact.

And what country brings up the bottom of the list? Maybe Putinstan?

I don't think the numbers would be too meaningful--the worst places actively try to keep their people from leaving.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

dumping dozens of asylum seekers on the doorstep of Northeastern Democrats who have resisted calls to clamp down on immigration.
Those dumped asylum seekers did not last long at all at Martha's Vinyard for some reason.

It has already been explained to you many times that Martha's Vineyard is a seasonal community, most people are only there for the summer and most buildings are uninhabitable in the cold season.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Are there emigrant/immigrant numbers for every nation on the planet? Is the U.S. numero uno when it comes to people wishing to come hither? If it is I'm rather proud of that fact.

And what country brings up the bottom of the list? Maybe Putinstan?

I don't think the numbers would be too meaningful--the worst places actively try to keep their people from leaving.

Bilby did a good job of answering my query. But you are correct, comparing countries that are not free democracies to dictatorships is apples and oranges. Among actual functioning democracies I suppose lots of European states outpace the U.S. on a per capita basis. But I think sheer numbers tells the real story. In sheer numbers the U.S. is the clear winner.

 

[RVonse]

The date when Whites become a minority in America could easily move up from 2045 to 2035

This apparently bothers you quite a bit. Why is that?

Simply that it shows the trend is much more than most think it is.

Why is that trend worth pointing out? It doesn’t bother me at all.

So says Mark Zuckerberg, the indigenous people of Martha's estate, and all the other hypocrit liberals out there. "It's great for everyone else to be over run with outsiders but we want our walls around our vast Hawaiian estates and borders so we don't have to deal with those other folks. Because those folk don't bother us at all if they give us cheap services as long as they stay down there in Texas."

Um...what?

The Story Behind DeSantis’s Migrant Flights to Martha’s Vineyard (Published 2022)

Asylum seekers in Texas were recruited for the flights by a woman who appeared to be a former Army counterintelligence agent. “We were tricked,” one migrant said.

www.nytimes.com

dumping dozens of asylum seekers on the doorstep of Northeastern Democrats who have resisted calls to clamp down on immigration.
Those dumped asylum seekers did not last long at all at Martha's Vinyard for some reason.

The article is behind a paywall, but I must again ask...um, what?

To clarify, what the fuck does this have to do with Mark Zuckerberg? Do you just throw his name out there like "George Soros" to say "see? It was tha Jooz!"?

And the reason the people who were human trafficked to Martha's Vineyard "didn't last long," is because the community didn't have the facilities to take care of them. Which is a big reason why they were sent there...cruelty and spite. But I guess cruelty and spite is just fine in your book so long as the victims are brown.

But in case you missed it, those well-off white liberals on MV did everything they could to take care of the victims of Rhonda and Gregg's racist shitfuckery until they could be taken in by more well-equipped organizations. Instead of calling security and having the poor brown people kicked out, they took them in, fed them, and gave them whatever aid was available. You are trying to make this into a "rich libs don't want 'those people' around" thing, but they did the right thing, aiding refugees to the best of their ability.

I bet your ideal solution would involve train cars and camps where these people can be "concentrated."

Because Mark Zuckerberg of all people single handedly buys out the last election with his $millions of donations to the democratic party.

What color is the sky in your world? Because when you assert that he "single handedly" bought out the last election with his "millions" of donations, I can only surmise you live in some sort of alternate reality.

Mark Zuckerberg gave $419.5MILLION to 2020 election nonprofits

Mark Zuckerberg and his wife gave $419million into nonprofits that aided in the administration of the 2020 election - and heavily favored Democrat counties, according to a new report.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Patooka]

And that donation "bought" the election? Come on, show your working or I'll have no choice but to give you an F.