The Virus - Are You Affected?

[DrZoidberg]

That means absolutely nothing. They can't exclude that after two years those infected won't turn into a pink elephant either. Stop reading tabloid press news articles on it!!!

Well, in the case of ordinary flu they CAN exclude brain damage.
In this case they found that "asymptomatic" people still have damage in brain cells which play a role in Alzheimer and Parkinson.
Just because you don't experience the symptoms does not mean you are not royally screwed.

Nobody knows that. Nobody can know that. It's a new disease. You are talking about things that are highly speculative

 

[barbos]

That means absolutely nothing. They can't exclude that after two years those infected won't turn into a pink elephant either. Stop reading tabloid press news articles on it!!!

Well, in the case of ordinary flu they CAN exclude brain damage.
In this case they found that "asymptomatic" people still have damage in brain cells which play a role in Alzheimer and Parkinson.
Just because you don't experience the symptoms does not mean you are not royally screwed.

Nobody knows that. Nobody can know that. It's a new disease. You are talking about things that are highly speculative

We KNOW that this virus infects pretty much every organ including brain and brain is a last organ you want to get infected with anything.

 

[Politesse]

That means absolutely nothing. They can't exclude that after two years those infected won't turn into a pink elephant either. Stop reading tabloid press news articles on it!!!

Well, in the case of ordinary flu they CAN exclude brain damage.
In this case they found that "asymptomatic" people still have damage in brain cells which play a role in Alzheimer and Parkinson.
Just because you don't experience the symptoms does not mean you are not royally screwed.

Nobody knows that. Nobody can know that. It's a new disease. You are talking about things that are highly speculative

Just because a disease is new doesn't mean we cannot observe how it is attacking the body in the present. And it's also not that new, it is a new strain of a well known class of virus that has caused pandemic outbreaks in the past, so we have mountains of data on the long-term impacts of coronavirus type infections. This one won't be the same as those, but to suggest that it will be less impactful when the initial stages are much more severe is absurd.

If I shoot you in the leg with a new model of gun that has never been fired before, are the doctors who tend to you being "highly speculative" when they tell you that the risk of permanent disablement is high? Of course not. They may never have seen that bullet before, but they know, in general, what gunshot wounds look like. Legs don't magically heal themselves when shot by one type of bullet as opposed to another. You lose a tendon somehow, you're screwed for life whether it was an elephant gun or a zip gun. Similarly, anything that seriously impairs your nervous system in the way that a severe coronavirus infection does is permanent damage. You may recover some functionality, but it won't be all, the brain and spine simply aren't designed to magically rebuild themselves after certain kinds of injuries.

 

[Elixir]

Nobody knows that. Nobody can know that. It's a new disease. You are talking about things that are highly speculative

Just because a disease is new doesn't mean we cannot observe how it is attacking the body in the present. And it's also not that new, it is a new strain of a well known class of virus that has caused pandemic outbreaks in the past, so we have mountains of data on the long-term impacts of coronavirus type infections. This one won't be the same as those, but to suggest that it will be less impactful when the initial stages are much more severe is absurd.

If I shoot you in the leg with a new model of gun that has never been fired before, are the doctors who tend to you being "highly speculative" when they tell you that the risk of permanent disablement is high? Of course not. They may never have seen that bullet before, but they know, in general, what gunshot wounds look like. Legs don't magically heal themselves when shot by one type of bullet as opposed to another. You lose a tendon somehow, you're screwed for life whether it was an elephant gun or a zip gun. Similarly, anything that seriously impairs your nervous system in the way that a severe coronavirus infection does is permanent damage. You may recover some functionality, but it won't be all, the brain and spine simply aren't designed to magically rebuild themselves after certain kinds of injuries.

There's a huge difference between getting his by a round from a .38 revolver at less than 1000 fps, vs a .223 round from an AR-15 at over 3000 fps. The 223 can main and kill just from the shock wave, even if you're hit in a distal extremity. We don't know what COVID more closely resembles because we have had a long enough time to assess long term damages.

 

[Politesse]

Nobody knows that. Nobody can know that. It's a new disease. You are talking about things that are highly speculative

Just because a disease is new doesn't mean we cannot observe how it is attacking the body in the present. And it's also not that new, it is a new strain of a well known class of virus that has caused pandemic outbreaks in the past, so we have mountains of data on the long-term impacts of coronavirus type infections. This one won't be the same as those, but to suggest that it will be less impactful when the initial stages are much more severe is absurd.

If I shoot you in the leg with a new model of gun that has never been fired before, are the doctors who tend to you being "highly speculative" when they tell you that the risk of permanent disablement is high? Of course not. They may never have seen that bullet before, but they know, in general, what gunshot wounds look like. Legs don't magically heal themselves when shot by one type of bullet as opposed to another. You lose a tendon somehow, you're screwed for life whether it was an elephant gun or a zip gun. Similarly, anything that seriously impairs your nervous system in the way that a severe coronavirus infection does is permanent damage. You may recover some functionality, but it won't be all, the brain and spine simply aren't designed to magically rebuild themselves after certain kinds of injuries.

There's a huge difference between getting his by a round from a .38 revolver at less than 1000 fps, vs a .223 round from an AR-15 at over 3000 fps. The 223 can main and kill just from the shock wave, even if you're hit in a distal extremity. We don't know what COVID more closely resembles because we have had a long enough time to assess long term damages.

Yes, but if your tendon is severed, your tendon is severed. What's being posited here is that people who've been badly disabled might somehow miraculously recover everything they have lost, because "no one really knows". It's the same kind of thinking that leads stupid people to conclude that any unknown outcome is a 50/50 chance. Knowing the caliber of rifle will help the surgeon. It will help the PT guy. Not knowing it does not mean you have a chance of miracuously recovering when certain kinds of damage have been done.

 

[Elixir]

....the same kind of thinking that leads stupid people to conclude that any unknown outcome is a 50/50 chance..

I didn't realize they actually concluded that.
I should have known there'd be a 50/50 chance.

Absolutely right though, esp about the poor PT folks.
I just had a long talk with the only person I know well who has experienced a severe COVID-19 case. He almost died and spent days wishing he would. It sure sounds like a horrific experience, to make a person like him wish he would die during the worst three days of it. He spent another month basically in bed, home alone with his dogs. Wife had tested negative so she was staying with friends. People left food inside the door...
That all began in early April and he still has headaches, but they are diminishing.
There is no predicting exactly what symptoms a COVID patient will experience, which symptoms will linger or for how long. Some symptoms may be responsive to treatment, others not so much.
It's a bugger.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There actually was a big one day spike in New York with something like 3700 additional deaths from the previous weeks entering the statistics.

Note that I said "at present". The New York spike is an example of fixing the old data, but the undercounts now are in places that don't want the truth.

 

[barbos]

Looks like the last spike in infections in Russia is all due to idiots returning from vacations.
Fucking imbeciles. Good thing, the shithole, I am in, sees moderate increase.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Nobody knows that. Nobody can know that. It's a new disease. You are talking about things that are highly speculative

We KNOW that this virus infects pretty much every organ including brain and brain is a last organ you want to get infected with anything.

We barely know anything about the brain. Alzheimers is a family of diseases with similar symptoms but with a multitude of causes. We have no idea what causes it. We have a very superficial understanding of how it progresses or why.

On top of that we know very little about Covid-19. Too few people had SARS or MERS for us to be able to draw any strong conclusions about it. It will take years before we can make any reliable predictions about how Covid-19 will develop. Especially longterm. It's still wise to be cautious. But there's no reason to be hysterical.

Linking Covid-19 to Alzheimers is just clickbait tabloid journalism.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Nobody knows that. Nobody can know that. It's a new disease. You are talking about things that are highly speculative

Just because a disease is new doesn't mean we cannot observe how it is attacking the body in the present. And it's also not that new, it is a new strain of a well known class of virus that has caused pandemic outbreaks in the past, so we have mountains of data on the long-term impacts of coronavirus type infections. This one won't be the same as those, but to suggest that it will be less impactful when the initial stages are much more severe is absurd.

If I shoot you in the leg with a new model of gun that has never been fired before, are the doctors who tend to you being "highly speculative" when they tell you that the risk of permanent disablement is high? Of course not. They may never have seen that bullet before, but they know, in general, what gunshot wounds look like. Legs don't magically heal themselves when shot by one type of bullet as opposed to another. You lose a tendon somehow, you're screwed for life whether it was an elephant gun or a zip gun. Similarly, anything that seriously impairs your nervous system in the way that a severe coronavirus infection does is permanent damage. You may recover some functionality, but it won't be all, the brain and spine simply aren't designed to magically rebuild themselves after certain kinds of injuries.

The immune system is incredibly complicated. What killed people in the Spanish flu epidemic was people's own immune system. The disease triggered a cytokine storm that killed them. Not the infection. Very weird and random things can happen with disease.

In 60% of Covid-19 cases people get long term damage to lung capacity. We have no idea why. Why? Because we can't do autopsies on those who survive the initial disease, for ethical reasons. We can only do autopsies on those who die. We can from these results make qualified guesses. But we're still guessing.

The human body flurishes from resistance. When our brains are excercised and pushed to its limit, it will work better. There's no reason to think oxygen deprivation will cause long term damage to the brain (hypoxia). Assuming the hypoxia tissue doesn't die (anoxia). Divers will typically slow down their pulse as much as possible during diving, to maximise dive time. All the people who were into diving in the 70'ies are now reaching alzheimer age. If there was any link we'd know by now.

Boxers get alzheimers. They are extreme athletes, ie an extreme high level of oxygenation of the brain. That's what being fit does. They still go retarded.

The way LSD and psylocibin mushrooms acts on the brain is to selectively shut off parts of it while high. Completely harmless and non toxic. There's now a lot of evidence it can be long term beneficial for brain activity and intelligence.

 

[barbos]

Nobody knows that. Nobody can know that. It's a new disease. You are talking about things that are highly speculative

We KNOW that this virus infects pretty much every organ including brain and brain is a last organ you want to get infected with anything.

We barely know anything about the brain. Alzheimers is a family of diseases with similar symptoms but with a multitude of causes. We have no idea what causes it. We have a very superficial understanding of how it progresses or why.

On top of that we know very little about Covid-19. Too few people had SARS or MERS for us to be able to draw any strong conclusions about it. It will take years before we can make any reliable predictions about how Covid-19 will develop. Especially longterm. It's still wise to be cautious. But there's no reason to be hysterical.

Linking Covid-19 to Alzheimers is just clickbait tabloid journalism.

Medical researchers said that, not journalists.

 

[DrZoidberg]

We barely know anything about the brain. Alzheimers is a family of diseases with similar symptoms but with a multitude of causes. We have no idea what causes it. We have a very superficial understanding of how it progresses or why.

On top of that we know very little about Covid-19. Too few people had SARS or MERS for us to be able to draw any strong conclusions about it. It will take years before we can make any reliable predictions about how Covid-19 will develop. Especially longterm. It's still wise to be cautious. But there's no reason to be hysterical.

Linking Covid-19 to Alzheimers is just clickbait tabloid journalism.

Medical researchers said that, not journalists.

I don't think they did.

 

[southernhybrid]

The link I will post discusses the "brain fog" that some people experience following being infected with COVID. It is very similar to dementia but we don't know if it is temporary or permanent. I also read this morning that some people experienced Parkinson's disease or other neurological conditions after the Flu Pandemic of 1918. Of course, it's hard to know how much of that was causation. It's just something that may have been due to that particular flu.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/11/health/covid-survivors.html

After contracting the coronavirus in March, Michael Reagan lost all memory of his 12-day vacation in Paris, even though the trip was just a few weeks earlier.

Several weeks after Erica Taylor recovered from her Covid-19 symptoms of nausea and cough, she became confused and forgetful, failing to even recognize her own car, the only Toyota Prius in her apartment complex’s parking lot.

Lisa Mizelle, a veteran nurse practitioner at an urgent care clinic who fell ill with the virus in July, finds herself forgetting routine treatments and lab tests, and has to ask colleagues about terminology she used to know automatically.

“I leave the room and I can’t remember what the patient just said,” she said, adding that if she hadn’t exhausted her medical leave she’d take more time off.

It’s becoming known as Covid brain fog: troubling cognitive symptoms that can include memory loss, confusion, difficulty focusing, dizziness and grasping for everyday words. Increasingly, Covid survivors say brain fog is impairing their ability to work and function normally.

“There are thousands of people who have that,” said Dr. Igor Koralnik, chief of neuro-infectious disease at Northwestern Medicine in Chicago, who has already seen hundreds of survivors at a post-Covid clinic he leads. “The impact on the work force that’s affected is going to be significant.

Scientists aren’t sure what causes brain fog, which varies widely and affects even people who became only mildly physically ill from Covid-19 and had no previous medical conditions. Leading theories are that it arises when the body’s immune response to the virus doesn’t shut down or from inflammation in blood vessels leading to the brain.

Brain fog’s cause is a mystery partly because symptoms are so varied.

“The simplest answer is people still have persistent immune activation after the initial infection subsided,” said Dr. Avindra Nath, chief of infections of the nervous system at the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke.

Inflammation in blood vessels, or cells lining the vessels, may be involved, said Dr. Serena Spudich, chief of neurological infections and global neurology at Yale School of Medicine. Inflammatory molecules, released in effective immune responses, “can also be sort of toxins, particularly to the brain,” she said.

If you're unable to read the article, it includes the stories of some individuals, including an APRN who discusses how difficult it is to treat her patients due to memory loss and other neurological symptoms.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In 60% of Covid-19 cases people get long term damage to lung capacity. We have no idea why. Why? Because we can't do autopsies on those who survive the initial disease, for ethical reasons. We can only do autopsies on those who die. We can from these results make qualified guesses. But we're still guessing.

Actually, we can, it's just a lot of work. Keep a record of Covid survivors, when one shows up in the morgue do your autopsy with a goal of figuring out what Covid did to them. You need a lot of records because the number that show up will be low and they'll not always be where they were when they had Covid--the database behind it has to be nationwide. It's not like Covid survivors somehow become immortal.

 

[lpetrich]

Glamour on Twitter: "“We should be honoring them every day" @AOC and @RepGraceMeng reflect on how the women of Elmhurst hospital bravely faced the COVID-19 pandemic. #GlamourWOTY https://t.co/M77bvkaIyB" / Twitter
Those two are Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) and Grace Meng of Congressional districts NY-14 and NY-06. NY-14 has E Bronx and N Queens, and NY-06 has parts of W, Central, and NE Queens. Elmhurst Hospital is in a triangle bounded by Broadway, Baxter Ave, and 41st Ave in Queens, in NY-06, with NY-14 being on the other side of 41st Ave.

The Guardians of Elmhurst | Glamour - "s COVID-19 spread across the United States, one hospital in New York found itself in the epicenter of the epicenter. With the virus on a warpath, its staff risked it all in the fight for our lives." - Elmhurst Hospital in Queens. It got very loaded down during the first wave of the pandemic in the US.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The link I will post discusses the "brain fog" that some people experience following being infected with COVID. It is very similar to dementia but we don't know if it is temporary or permanent. I also read this morning that some people experienced Parkinson's disease or other neurological conditions after the Flu Pandemic of 1918. Of course, it's hard to know how much of that was causation. It's just something that may have been due to that particular flu.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/11/health/covid-survivors.html

Brain fog’s cause is a mystery partly because symptoms are so varied.

“The simplest answer is people still have persistent immune activation after the initial infection subsided,” said Dr. Avindra Nath, chief of infections of the nervous system at the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke.

Inflammation in blood vessels, or cells lining the vessels, may be involved, said Dr. Serena Spudich, chief of neurological infections and global neurology at Yale School of Medicine. Inflammatory molecules, released in effective immune responses, “can also be sort of toxins, particularly to the brain,” she said.

If you're unable to read the article, it includes the stories of some individuals, including an APRN who discusses how difficult it is to treat her patients due to memory loss and other neurological symptoms.

Any flu or fever can lead to temporary memory loss. So we'd expect Covid-19 to be the same.

 

[DrZoidberg]

In 60% of Covid-19 cases people get long term damage to lung capacity. We have no idea why. Why? Because we can't do autopsies on those who survive the initial disease, for ethical reasons. We can only do autopsies on those who die. We can from these results make qualified guesses. But we're still guessing.

Actually, we can, it's just a lot of work. Keep a record of Covid survivors, when one shows up in the morgue do your autopsy with a goal of figuring out what Covid did to them. You need a lot of records because the number that show up will be low and they'll not always be where they were when they had Covid--the database behind it has to be nationwide. It's not like Covid survivors somehow become immortal.

I was just quoting a doctor saying this on TWIV. I don't know the mechanics of it. I'm not a doctor.

 

[TSwizzle]

After weeks of delay in providing safety guideline that would allow California theme parks to open, the insufferable prick that is the governor of California, Gavin Newsom has provided guidelines so restrictive that it makes it impossible for the parks to open partially. In addition to his boneheaded and arbitrary diktats he also announced he will be forming a "task force" of experts to independently review any FDA approved vaccines.

The initiative to recall the insufferable prick is gathering momentum and signatures. And this clown has aspirations to be president

 

[ZiprHead]

Newsom's guidelines:

Key prevention practices include:
 physical distancing to the maximum extent possible,
 use of face coverings by workers (where respiratory protection is not
required) and guests,
 frequent handwashing and regular cleaning and disinfection,
 training workers on these and other elements of the COVID-19 prevention
plan.
In addition, it will be critical to have in place appropriate processes to identify new
cases of illness in workplaces and, when they are identified, to intervene quickly and
work with public health authorities to halt the spread of the virus.

Purple – Widespread – Tier 1: All operations must be closed.

• Red – Substantial – Tier 2: All operations must be closed.

• Orange – Moderate – Tier 3: Operations are permitted only for smaller parks (see
definition below) and those operators must implement the following
modifications:

o Smaller parks are defined as parks with overall capacity fewer than 15,000
based on the design/operating capacity or fire department occupant
limit.
o Capacity must be limited to 25% of total facility occupancy based on the
design/operating capacity or fire department occupant limit - whichever is
fewer - or 500 people, whichever is fewer.
o Only outdoor attractions are permitted to open; all other indoor attractions
must remain closed.
o Ticket sales must be limited only to those visitors who reside in the same
county as the park’s location.
o Operators must follow the modifications in this guidance and must be
prepared for inspections by public health officials to ensure adequate
implementation of all required modifications. Operators must address and
implement any resulting findings and recommendations

Yellow – Minimal – Tier 4: Operations are permitted for all amusement park
operators with the following modifications:

o Capacity must be limited to 25% of total facility occupancy based on the
design/operating capacity or fire department occupant limit, whichever is
fewer.
o Capacity on all indoor dining and drinking establishments within the park
must be limited to 25%.
o Operators must follow the modifications in this guidance and must be
prepared for inspections by public health officials to ensure adequate
implementation of all required modifications. Operators must address and
implement any resulting findings and recommendations.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ohio is pondering closing schools up again as hospitalizations increase. It isn't bad, but Dewine has been more pro-active, less reactive. I ponder how much of this is school and how much is football practice.

Regardless, Akron was just pondering the idea of a hybrid plan and did a survey, managed about 75% response, and it was about 3 to 2 in support for hybrid. But then they came out with a shitty "hybrid" system where kids go for two days, and go home with absolutely no instruction (just packets and online portal stuff) for three days... instead of online with teachers for five days. I understand the issue at hand with special needs, have multiple students in a home, some children not handling online well (but can we be honest, how well were they going to do in school?), but their hybrid idea was awful. I always thought you'd stream class for the kids at home for three days they aren't in. Probably some logistical issues, though. Of course, this ignores the issues of school transport, tests or screenings, how to handle sick kids (kids get sick normally too).

But with the talk of possible school shutdowns, that kisses hybrid goodbye. I can't imagine being a teacher dealing with this.