There isn't really a 'freewill problem'.

[ryan]

I'm sorry, but it doesn't address what I said about brain agency.

You said, "all brains have the same underlying quantum substructure, cat brains, dog brains, mouse brains, horse brains, human brains and so on....all with their underlying quantum substructure, yet all producing sets of behaviour not according to their quantum substructures"

You also said, "Microtubules are not the decision makers".

Then I quoted from the document called, "Quantum Information Processes in Protein Microtubules of Brain Neurons":

"This orchestrated
OR activity (‘Orch OR’) is taken to result in moments
of conscious awareness and/or choice."

And you say that I did not address your statement? I addressed it, challenged it and later explained why your certainty is wrong in more detail.

Are you claiming that microtubules have the ability to think and reason? If so, is the rest of the brain there for just for scaffolding?

Not individually. If the microtubules really do have the power to orchestrate together and fire or help fire neurons by no known or determinable mechanism, then they would be the very things pulling the puppet strings. The consciousness might be them or the unified consciousness might be what's controlling them.

Everything is 'information' - the state of microtubules at any given moment is an information state....they don't choose their own information states. Nor does consciousness have access to or control of matter/energy states of the brain, not microtubules. not neurons, not connectivity, not chemical balance or electrical activity...

You are narrowing the scope of possibilities to suit your argument. Epiphenomenalism is possible, but it is not the only possibility.

That is the point. That all brains have microtubules, that all brains have a quantum substructure but the brains of different species produce different sets of behaviours.

Ryan, you can't get around this.

This may work for all animals; why not? For a few months when work is not needed to be done in any given year, the male big horned owl will "play" and not follow any obvious or common instinct that the other owls do during their "time off".

 

[untermensche]

@Untermensche, No, it was a rolling forward of present state.

ETA you don't know your arse from your face when it comes to Evolution. Evolution is a result, it isn't a process.

Did you know, your arse formed first?

What we call evolution are many different processes.

Diverse living organisms are the result, not evolution.

 

[Val]

Is it too soon to be making demands for a icard: emoticon?

 

[untermensche]

Where did the "I" emerge from? What caused it (according to you)?

And round and round we go.

We have no idea how the "I" emerged. The speculation is it emerges as the result of some kind of activity taking place in the brain.

We only know the subjective experience of being an "I".

An "I" that can pick and choose from the ideas it encounters which ideas it will keep and which it will discard.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it too soon to be making demands for a icard: emoticon?

I'm the one that needs it.

Evolution is not a result.

Organisms are the result.

This is so clear it seems too obvious to even state it.

 

[Val]

Speculation? That's funny.

A little birdy told me it's speculating that you're making this shit up as you go along.

- - - Updated - - -

This is so clear it seems too obvious to even state it.

Good stuff, so I can expect an answer to my original question?

 

[untermensche]

Speculation? That's funny.

A little birdy told me it's speculating that you're making this shit up as you go along.

If you have more than speculation go ahead and present it.

Good stuff, so I can expect an answer to my original question?

From what did your arm emerge?

 

[Val]

HOAX genes!

 

[holist]

View attachment 14069

Look at me balls! Just look at 'em! Fockin look!

More like this:



(incidentally: my dog, my photo. you runt ( : )
(some things just take longer than expected)

 

[Val]

But... but.... that's not a bear! Is it?

Does it shit in the woods?

 

[Speakpigeon]

You can do the multiplication trick with all kinds of shapes, at least the ordinary, non-pathological ones

... What's a pathological shape?

I'm not sure but I suspect that shapes with complex concave and/or convoluted envelops would get in the way of duplication.
EB

 

[Kharakov]

You can do the multiplication trick with all kinds of shapes, at least the ordinary, non-pathological ones

... What's a pathological shape?

I'm not sure but I suspect that shapes with complex concave and/or convoluted envelops would get in the way of duplication.
EB

What, like amoebas? They are hilarious, as long as you don't eat them, and your name isn't Terry.

 

[Speakpigeon]

I'm not sure but I suspect that shapes with complex concave and/or convoluted envelops would get in the way of duplication.
EB

What, like amoebas? They are hilarious, as long as you don't eat them, and your name isn't Terry.

I may be wrong but I don't think amoebae are pathological just because of their shape.

And remember that I'm 100% French, so complex concave and/or convoluted references to bits of American pop-culture like this Terry guy will get in the way of me catching your meaning.

So, who is this Terry bloke anyway?
EB

 

[Subsymbolic]

You can do the multiplication trick with all kinds of shapes, at least the ordinary, non-pathological ones

... What's a pathological shape?

I'm not sure but I suspect that shapes with complex concave and/or convoluted envelops would get in the way of duplication.
EB

Why would that be?

More to the point, how can you see this, realise that it can't be done by following physical laws, only logical ones, grasp that results obtained in maths can change behaviour in the real world and not see the relevance for both irreducible emergence, how we look at free will, and, ultimately, the implications for intentional explanations. The argument looks looks pretty damn transitive to me, which step is problematic?

 

[Kharakov]

I'm not sure but I suspect that shapes with complex concave and/or convoluted envelops would get in the way of duplication.
EB

What, like amoebas? They are hilarious, as long as you don't eat them, and your name isn't Terry.

I may be wrong but I don't think amoebae are pathological just because of their shape.

And remember that I'm 100% French, so complex concave and/or convoluted references to bits of American pop-culture like this Terry guy will get in the way of me catching your meaning.

So, who is this Terry bloke anyway?
EB

I don't know, but amoebas apparently aren't against dissin' Terry if you swallow them.

Show

dissin' is slang for insulting, Terry is an androgynous name that I do not know the origins of. Amoebic dysentery is something that you don't want, which killed lots of people in the elementary school game "The Oregon Trail"

 

[bilby]

Is it too soon to be making demands for a icard: emoticon?

You will find it at :picardfacepalm:



You may need it quite a lot around here.

 

[DBT]

This may work for all animals; why not? For a few months when work is not needed to be done in any given year, the male big horned owl will "play" and not follow any obvious or common instinct that the other owls do during their "time off".

I think that you miss the point. Quantum substructure and microtubules are common to the brains of all species that have a brain, yet the behavour being generated by each species (within a range) is specific to that species, which is evidence that it is neither quantum or microtubules that determines behaviour of a species or individuals within a species but the macro scale architecture of their brain, human frontal lobes, mid brain, hind brain, the architecture devoted to the sense of smell in canines, echo location in dolphins, etc....

 

[ryan]

This may work for all animals; why not? For a few months when work is not needed to be done in any given year, the male big horned owl will "play" and not follow any obvious or common instinct that the other owls do during their "time off".

I think that you miss the point. Quantum substructure and microtubules are common to the brains of all species that have a brain, yet the behavour being generated by each species (within a range) is specific to that species, which is evidence that it is neither quantum or microtubules that determines behaviour of a species or individuals within a species but the macro scale architecture of their brain, human frontal lobes, mid brain, hind brain, the architecture devoted to the sense of smell in canines, echo location in dolphins, etc....

I meant that each male big horned owl exhibits random behavior when it is not in certain stages of its duties to its family. Or at least scientists have not found any common behaviors during this off time.

 

[Speakpigeon]

I may be wrong but I don't think amoebae are pathological just because of their shape.

And remember that I'm 100% French, so complex concave and/or convoluted references to bits of American pop-culture like this Terry guy will get in the way of me catching your meaning.

So, who is this Terry bloke anyway?
EB

I don't know, but amoebas apparently aren't against dissin' Terry if you swallow them.

Show

dissin' is slang for insulting, Terry is an androgynous name that I do not know the origins of. Amoebic dysentery is something that you don't want, which killed lots of people in the elementary school game "The Oregon Trail"

Alright, I got the broad picture...

Terry is an androgynous name that I do not know the origins of

Broadly, it comes from the French 'terre', i.e. earth, a derivative of which was used as a name for potters in South France.

English and Irish: from the common Norman personal name, T(h)erry (Old French Thierri), composed of the unattested Germanic element þeudo- 'people', 'race' + ric 'power'. Theodoric was the name of the Ostrogothic leader (c. 454–526) who invaded Italy in 488 and established his capital at Ravenna in 493.

Sounds pretty testosterone to me!

More at:

Terry Name Meaning & Terry Family History at Ancestry.com
https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=terry

And you have around two hundred Terry people living in California only.

Watch out!
EB

 

[DBT]

This may work for all animals; why not? For a few months when work is not needed to be done in any given year, the male big horned owl will "play" and not follow any obvious or common instinct that the other owls do during their "time off".

I think that you miss the point. Quantum substructure and microtubules are common to the brains of all species that have a brain, yet the behavour being generated by each species (within a range) is specific to that species, which is evidence that it is neither quantum or microtubules that determines behaviour of a species or individuals within a species but the macro scale architecture of their brain, human frontal lobes, mid brain, hind brain, the architecture devoted to the sense of smell in canines, echo location in dolphins, etc....

I meant that each male big horned owl exhibits random behavior when it is not in certain stages of its duties to its family. Or at least scientists have not found any common behaviors during this off time.

Random behaviour is not free will, it is nothing more than random behaviour....without will or purpose. You can't will randomness.

 

[Kharakov]

Is it too soon to be making demands for a icard: emoticon?

You will find it at :picardfacepalm:



You may need it quite a lot around here.

And if you want to get biblical on someone's ass: