To Give You a Size of the Immense and Growing Size of Illegal Immigration

[TomC]

Honestly, on this issue I find both parties pretty darned worthless. Both seem more inclined to score points than accomplish anything significant.

The fundamental problem doesn't seem particularly difficult to me. The USA is willing to give millions of jobs but we aren't willing to give people documents. So we've got chaos. If we were willing to get those in sync the illegal immigration problem would nearly disappear.
The only explanation I can see for why nobody is willing to do that is because those undocumented workers are so profitable for the investment class. The people who really run this country.
Tom

 

[Ford]

Honestly, on this issue I find both parties pretty darned worthless. Both seem more inclined to score points than accomplish anything significant.

The fundamental problem doesn't seem particularly difficult to me. The USA is willing to give millions of jobs but we aren't willing to give people documents. So we've got chaos. If we were willing to get those in sync the illegal immigration problem would nearly disappear.
The only explanation I can see for why nobody is willing to do that is because those undocumented workers are so profitable for the investment class. The people who really run this country.
Tom

I'd say your explanation is pretty close to the truth (attempt to 'both sides' the issue aside).

I keep going back to Arizona's infamous "papers please" SB1070. That law (and a previous one) included a provision for employer sanctions if any should be found to be hiring undocumented workers. And while the "papers please" part was thrown out in court, the public round-ups of migrant workers kept going, with our "America's Toughest Sheriff" raiding workplaces and displaying his "catch" lined up in zip-ties on the curb for the cameras.

Never did you see the store manager or the owners hauled off in cuffs. In fact there was (IIRC) exactly one prosecution under the employer sanctions part of the law, and the result was a relatively minor fine.

The reason for this should be obvious. Those workers in the zip ties don't have any political power. At best they have some civil rights group advocating for them as a group, but while that's happening, the owner of the local construction company that hires a bunch of guys to do jobs is down at the sheriff's office or the political fundraiser glad-handing the investor class's preferred "leaders." It wouldn't be a good look at all for law enforcement to knock on that guy's door one day and ask to see the documents from all his day laborers. Not a good look at all. Then the politicians who took the "very generous contribution from our small business community" hit the stump railing against "the illegal immigrants who are destroying our country!"

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Honestly, on this issue I find both parties pretty darned worthless. Both seem more inclined to score points than accomplish anything significant.

The fundamental problem doesn't seem particularly difficult to me. The USA is willing to give millions of jobs but we aren't willing to give people documents. So we've got chaos. If we were willing to get those in sync the illegal immigration problem would nearly disappear.
The only explanation I can see for why nobody is willing to do that is because those undocumented workers are so profitable for the investment class. The people who really run this country.
Tom

I do think that we need to fix the border. But more to stop trafficking of people and smuggling drugs across. Also to convince desperate people that crossing over is not worth it (many die in the desert and/or are exploited by the smugglers. But immigrants greatly benefit all Americans (not just the "investor class".) They pay far more taxes than what they get back. Work hard. Commit few crimes per person. And create the most profitable generation in America (children of immigrants are the most successful group.) Noone benefits from not providing proper papers for law-abiding working immigrants.

The benefits of immigration to the US far exceed their costs:

https://www.bushcenter.org/catalyst/north-american-century/benefits-of-immigration-outweigh-costs

 

[TomC]

I do think that we need to fix the border. But more to stop trafficking of people and smuggling drugs across.

Could you explain what you mean by "fix the border"?

I think it's more important that we fix the reasons for drug smuggling and human trafficking. Melting down the Statue of Liberty and forging it into metal plates won't fix the border as long as there's money to be made by the smugglers.
Tom

 

[Harry Bosch]

I do think that we need to fix the border. But more to stop trafficking of people and smuggling drugs across.

Could you explain what you mean by "fix the border"?

I think it's more important that we fix the reasons for drug smuggling and human trafficking. Melting down the Statue of Liberty and forging it into metal plates won't fix the border as long as there's money to be made by the smugglers.
Tom

Oh, totally agree. At the end of the day, people want to emigrate to the US for a better way of life. They want less crime; more opportunities for their children; and etc. If their home countries were improved, there would far less immigration.

 

[TomC]

At the end of the day, people want to emigrate to the US for a better way of life.

Which is one of our core values. Has been for centuries.

These modern people who want to destroy what made America Great by ending that makes me very angry.
Tom

 

[Ford]

I do think that we need to fix the border. But more to stop trafficking of people and smuggling drugs across.

Could you explain what you mean by "fix the border"?

I think it's more important that we fix the reasons for drug smuggling and human trafficking. Melting down the Statue of Liberty and forging it into metal plates won't fix the border as long as there's money to be made by the smugglers.
Tom

The problem is that too many politicians (mostly on the right) think the way to "fix the border" is to close it down. "Build the wall" or fill the Rio Grande with razor wire, alligators, and mines.

Meanwhile, most of the drugs and a good portion of the "illegals" come through the border crossings that we use for trade with one of our biggest trading partners...Mexico. So "fixing the border" is a complex situation with an equally complex solution that won't fit on a bumper sticker or a hat. Yet talk to most Trump supporters, and they think the problem will fit on a sticker or a hat. Piss-baby Greg Abbott in Texas thinks the solution is to ship migrants to Chicago or San Francisco to "own the libs."

Truth is, we need to address the reasons WHY people are coming here, and there's not one simple answer. Fleeing gang violence and murder in El Salvador and Honduras. Fleeing a failing dictatorship in Venezuela. Joining extended family who emigrated from Mexico decades earlier. Simple economic opportunity (oddly enough, economic immigration is being driven by the fact that Biden's economy is doing very well), and yeah...there are people who come here to do some crime because this is the biggest market for illegal drugs.

It's going to take decades, enormous effort, and hundreds of billions of dollars for the US to try and "fix" countries like Venezuela, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, and others, and that "help" can't come in the typical ways we've used in the past like installing brutal but US- friendly dictatorships after toppling the governments those countries wanted after they fought a revolution against the previous US-friendly dictatorships. I'm sure that there are a lot of people in Central and South America who would prefer the US stop trying to "fix" their countries and simply leave them the fuck alone.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Honestly, on this issue I find both parties pretty darned worthless. Both seem more inclined to score points than accomplish anything significant.

The fundamental problem doesn't seem particularly difficult to me. The USA is willing to give millions of jobs but we aren't willing to give people documents. So we've got chaos. If we were willing to get those in sync the illegal immigration problem would nearly disappear.
The only explanation I can see for why nobody is willing to do that is because those undocumented workers are so profitable for the investment class. The people who really run this country.
Tom

Part of that "investor class" is made up of people who invest in groceries. This influx of immigrants helped to tamp down inflation. No politician will ever tell you that but Jerome Powell did.
And in keeping this "chaos", politicians serve both those wanting cheap labor and those who think immigrants are destroying the country. If it were possible to have an honest conversation with a politician, people running across the border and waiting forever and a day for their day in court is the well oiled machine that keeps the lower end of the economy humming along.

 

[bilby]

The solution is to let people cross the damn border. It's called "freedom"; If people want to come and work, let them come and let them work. Particularly as there are clearly loads of jobs for them to do.

This silliness of making them sneak in, and pretending that it's a bad thing, and ocasionally rounding them up and deporting them, is just a way to steal their labour - to pay them far less than the law permits.

It has the side effect of producing a large covert cross-border traffic, which is an excellent smokescreen for the minority of crossings that you really do need to control - whether that's spies, terrorists, or dangerous goods (such as Kinder Surprise chocolate eggs).

 

[Patooka]

Oh, totally agree. At the end of the day, people want to emigrate to the US for a better way of life. They want less crime; more opportunities for their children; and etc. If their home countries were improved, there would far less immigration.

It could go the other way too. And by that I mean people who have the stamina and motivation to schlep through a fucking desert just on the off chance to get a better life exist in The States. They'll run if 'murica becomes a shithole.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The solution is to let people cross the damn border. It's called "freedom"; If people want to come and work, let them come and let them work. Particularly as there are clearly loads of jobs for them to do.

This message is brought to you by a country with no land borders... also a country that has a decent sized history of attempting to exclude all sorts of unwanted people from entering the country.

Snark aside, perhaps one of the biggest fallacies that the right-wing believe is that there is no market for this labor, that isn't compatible with lower/middle class labor. The truth is, we've been using (abusing?) cheap ass labor in the US for a long time. Much like how it is ridiculous to complain about China "stealing" US jobs, the same is the deal with jobs taken by migrant workers in the US... jobs that people don't want. Or people can't afford for middle class Americans to do it.

 

[scombrid]

Jack Prosobiec and the CPAC coup klux klan will save us from the hoards and sinners.

 

[TSwizzle]

More hard working "migrants" arriving in San Diego;

San Diego officials hit out at a migrant who was spotted wearing a hoodie emblazoned with the words 'F*** you all' - after the crisis at the border forced the city to shut its immigration center. City Supervisor Jim Desmond shared the image to X, stating the crudely dressed migrant was 'just one of the hundreds of illegal immigrants dropped on the streets of San Diego.' The migrant was one of over 1,500 left on the streets of San Diego this week after its immigration center buckled under the weight of the border crisis. Desmond said the $6 million taxpayer funded facility ran out of money in just over four months, after it processed over 81,000 migrants since October 2023. It comes as border towns continue to bear the brunt of the Biden administration's failure to crack down on illegal immigration, with December 2023 smashing the record for border encounters at almost 250,000.

Daily Mail

Meanwhile California governor, insufferable prick Gavin Newsom was in DC last week and obsessing over other states' abortion laws. Newsom could be facing another recall attempt.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

OMG! Someone was wearing a hoodie with a naughty word on it! Which means it was a message for all Americans! It also proves they are a migrant... and lazy.

 

[Emily Lake]

At the end of the day, people want to emigrate to the US for a better way of life.

Which is one of our core values. Has been for centuries.

These modern people who want to destroy what made America Great by ending that makes me very angry.
Tom

I get where you're coming from on a philosophical level.

On the other hand... there's a very practical limit that needs to be considered. We already have a serious problem in the US with homelessness, inadequate incomes, cost of housing and food. We don't even have a sustainable and reasonable approach in place to take care of our actual citizens.

It sounds very compassionate and nice and caring to say "send us your hungry and your poor..." But that's all it is - sounds. The reality right now is that the US throwing open the gates to all of the hungry and poor who want to be here just results in the US having a lot more hungry and poor people.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

At the end of the day, people want to emigrate to the US for a better way of life.

Which is one of our core values. Has been for centuries.

These modern people who want to destroy what made America Great by ending that makes me very angry.
Tom

I get where you're coming from on a philosophical level.

On the other hand... there's a very practical limit that needs to be considered. We already have a serious problem in the US with homelessness, inadequate incomes, cost of housing and food. We don't even have a sustainable and reasonable approach in place to take care of our actual citizens.

The reality is, the focus on the poor in the US will change 0% whether people are crossing our border or not. So, that is a red herring.

The US can be under the strain of poverty only when it really allows itself to be. Currently a bill in the Senate would have helped at least address funding at the border, for communities that definitely assistance. But otherwise, most of America couldn't even tell there is a border issue, if not for the tabloid news of Rupert Murdoch. There are viable solutions to managing immigration, but right now the liberal side's position is deal with it, and the conservative side's position is pretend we can just close the border and it'll go away... and just send them all back.

 

[Emily Lake]

The reality is, the focus on the poor in the US will change 0% whether people are crossing our border or not. So, that is a red herring.

A: "We have a whole lot of poor people, and no plan for how to address that issue"
B: "We should add a whole lot more poor people!"
A: "That's a bad idea, we already can't manage what we've got, adding more will make it worse"
B: "RED HERRING!!111!!!"

 

[laughing dog]

The reality is, the focus on the poor in the US will change 0% whether people are crossing our border or not. So, that is a red herring.

A: "We have a whole lot of poor people, and no plan for how to address that issue"
B: "We should add a whole lot more poor people!"
A: "That's a bad idea, we already can't manage what we've got, adding more will make it worse"
B: "RED HERRING!!111!!!"

Herring is tastier than straw.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The reality is, the focus on the poor in the US will change 0% whether people are crossing our border or not. So, that is a red herring.

A: "We have a whole lot of poor people, and no plan for how to address that issue"
B: "We should add a whole lot more poor people!"
A: "That's a bad idea, we already can't manage what we've got, adding more will make it worse"
B: "RED HERRING!!111!!!"

Much like the "mental health problem" gun lobby supporters use after the latest mass shooting, "whaddabout the poor" feels like another disingenuous reason for suggesting we can't allow migration of any number into the US, because those arguments rarely indicate the valid number of migrants we can afford to allow, without busting our "poverty issue'. Instead, it just says, 'we already have a poverty problem, we don't need more poor people'. We also have a:

• FICA solvency issue
• A runaway military budget issue
• Infrastructure age issue
• Not enough infrastructure/staffing for nursing homes

We have a number of issues that need to be addressed. Saying we need to hold back migration into the US by a lot of people that want to work hard and make a living for themselves and their family, typically in underemployed fields by us domestic types, because we already have undermanaged poverty just seems like a very short-sighted idea. Especially when the people "liking" such posts have zero care of addressing poverty at all.

 

[Ford]

Much like the "mental health problem" gun lobby supporters use after the latest mass shooting, "whaddabout the poor" feels like another disingenuous reason for suggesting we can't allow migration of any number into the US, because those arguments rarely indicate the valid number of migrants we can afford to allow, without busting our "poverty issue'. Instead, it just says, 'we already have a poverty problem, we don't need more poor people'.

We also have a right wing in the country who continues to insist that the "real problem" with the poor is that they're just not motivated enough, and that if they just "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" they'll magically stop being poor. Yet isn't a person who trekked across the entirety of Central America and Mexico covering a thousand miles or more on foot with no money (all paid to the coyotes) and precious little food, water, AND their family in tow motivated in a way most of these "tough on the border" folks can't imagine?

I think so. I'd add that Dreamers - who came to this country as children, learned the language, and excelled in school well enough to get accepted into multiple universities despite not having documentation are also pretty damned motivated. To rise from literally nothing in a strange new country and be successful is something thousands upon thousands of these young people have done without the help of rich parents, but for the right wing they're "leeches on our society."

Truth is, a lot of these undocumented people who worked so hard to get here in the first place would not be poor if we didn't keep them in the shadows, exploited for their manual labor, and afraid of deportation. Yeah, many of them would stay in low-paying jobs in (insert industry that's exploiting cheap labor) but a lot of them would - if given the opportunity - contribute more to our society than most of the red hats who complain about the "invasion."