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I, for one, think the breakdown by state is a bit arbitrarily defined in order for people to make partisan claims. Then, other people get caught up in believing there is something partisan going on or outcomes based on partisan differences. That is, people will assume, "hey let's correct this or estimate that based on red state or blue state loss or gain of population."

So let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment to see if I can explain some problems with this oversimplification. As a thought experiment, imagine we observe racial differences in overcounting and undercounting. Black people were undercounted and white people were overcounted. Then, I say, "See, look? The system is rigged. Black people traditionally vote Democrat and White people more often vote Republican. So let's estimate those contributions back to those party seats in Congress." Wouldn't you think there was a certain kind of lack of granularity and maybe too much of a generalization, at least among white voters to do the estimations with good confidence?

Well, it turns out that what I wrote is true. Black people WERE undercounted. And White people WERE overcounted. But now if I told you this and said nothing else, I'd be cherry-picking the dimensions that are different. Perhaps to make a point or perhaps because it's significant or maybe to support my own narrative.

While you may find this very interesting that both these things could be true that Blacks are undercounted and red states are undercounted, we probably should just stop and consider things one level deeper and try to recollect events surrounding the 2020 census enumeration.

So, first, next level of depth here..more granularity. Many states are not blue or red but purple, but moreover, we can break it down by county and note that urban areas in particular are typically more blue, and rural areas are typically more red. Of course, there are regional differences as well such as by state. I bring this up because if you go through the documentation on the PES you will find that they did not break it down by county for observers and so we cannot tell if it was the urban areas of Texas (for example) that were undercounted that then would be far less reflective of a partisan undercount.

Let's table this for a moment and get back to it.

Next, some recollections. The 2020 census was a shitshow. Trump wanted to ask for a bunch of info from residents and given his right-wing schtick and xenophobia, there was an argument from Democrats that this would scare the bejeebus out of immigrants, even legal immigrants from participating in the census. We also were going through lockdowns and the pandemic. The census is around April 1st and we were certainly knee-deep in the shite by then. There was probably a rush job to "get er done" by a Republican administration which we all know is pretty shitty at government. Take all these factors and how they played out differently across regions in the US and add one more: this was the first census year with a heavy digital component to data entry by households and you have a recipe for complete and utter failure and chaos.

Okay, now let's go back to what we tabled, county differences in Texas and urban areas. Consider the following scenario: you're a legal immigrant worker living in Houston commuting to work, you're scared by the right-wing crazies and Trumpophiles, and English is not your forte--you get by on a day-to-day basis and you are learning and you do not have a laptop to try to enter data into a census survey anyway. While you do not vote because you are not a citizen, the representative for your district is a Democrat. You are too scared to do the census and so you ignore the whole thing. Maybe later on you might answer questions under a more friendly administration.

That's some granularity---now would you consider it fair to say, "Hey this guy is from a red state, so let's assume that there are missing Republican seats on his behalf?"

Do note that immigrants are often in urban areas and this is a thing that happens in Texas. Also, it turns out that Hispanics were another undercounted demographic:
RaceError.PNG

To add...

So the methodology of the PES is that they choose 10,000 blocks in the US to sample people from and then they interview them to ask where they were living April 1st, 2020 and maybe also ask about other residents. Those interviews went up to March 2022. It took a long time for them to sample these 10,000 blocks in the US. They then used this for their estimate.

But now this isn't a primary source of documentation for 2020 because it is people's memories which may be wrong. If it includes info on other people, it seems it could be more wrong...but then there's also an issue of subjectivity in terms of how does a residence get reflected for people who migrate or have dual residence but it was the middle of a pandemic. Do you consider your typical residence your residence if it is usually your primary but not this year because of the pandemic, etc?

So, perhaps, this is why there were a number of overcounts in New England and NY who have some subpopulations that have dual residence in Florida.

How they are counted from either the census or the post enumeration survey may be inconsistent or the memory may not reflect the subjectivity of the time (or whatever).

Overall, I think if you do not get to the bottom of the root causes of differences between the census and PE survey, you should not assume one or the other measurement is better than the other or try to correct the former based on a superficial trend of partisan estimations.
 
5 out of 6 of the undercounted states are traditionally red; 7 out of 8 of the overcounted states are traditionally blue.
5.04% of Arkansas' 2020 population is a bit less than 152,000. 3.48% of Florida's is just shy of 750,000. Illinois 252,500. Mississippi 122,000. Tennessee 330,500. Texas 560,000.

Delaware 54,000. Hawaii 99,000. Massachusetts 157,500. Minnesota 219,250. New York 695,000. Ohio 176,000. Rhode Island 55,500. Utah 85,000.

So Florida might be short one representative (blame New York)...

(And Ohio voted red in 7 of the last 12 Presidential elections, 1 fewer than Florida.)
 
5 out of 6 of the undercounted states are traditionally red; 7 out of 8 of the overcounted states are traditionally blue.
5.04% of Arkansas' 2020 population is a bit less than 152,000. 3.48% of Florida's is just shy of 750,000. Illinois 252,500. Mississippi 122,000. Tennessee 330,500. Texas 560,000.

Delaware 54,000. Hawaii 99,000. Massachusetts 157,500. Minnesota 219,250. New York 695,000. Ohio 176,000. Rhode Island 55,500. Utah 85,000.

So Florida might be short one representative (blame New York)...

As noted earlier, there is a county difference in blue vs red and according to PES, there seemed to be undercounts of Blacks and Hispanics and overcounts of Whites. So, would we reckon that the undercounts in Florida were typically in urban areas with higher immigrant and minority counts? So missing people were centered around urban areas?

It's also kind of interesting that it turns out Hispanics voted 3 to 1 in favor of Biden in blue states and in large so-called red states like Florida and Texas, they voted 2-to-1 in favor of Biden. So were most of these missing people in Democratic urban areas inside of the red states?
 
But here's where the census bureau talks about the over/under counting, and the percentage error:


According to the PES, which states had undercounts?​

  • Arkansas (-5.04),
  • Florida (-3.48),
  • Illinois (-1.97),
  • Mississippi (-4.11),
  • Tennessee (-4.78), and
  • Texas (-1.92).

And overcounts?​

  • Delaware (+5.45),
  • Hawaii (+6.79),
  • Massachusetts (+2.24),
  • Minnesota (+3.84),
  • New York (+3.44),
  • Ohio (+1.49),
  • Rhode Island (+5.05), and
  • Utah (+2.59)
14 out of 50 states had statistically significant errors. 5 out of 6 of the undercounted states are traditionally red; 7 out of 8 of the overcounted states are traditionally blue.
I still want to know what their measure of statistical significance is. This was based on polls vs census data--they identified the number of households polled, implying that they were random across the country. If so they simply don't have enough samples in the smaller states to be declaring these significant without setting a very low bar for significant. And if they set a low bar then this becomes simply expected noise.
 
And nobody has yet replied to my point about this looking like bad data.
Well, US Census Bureau is the one that disclosed the statistically significant miscounts, so take it up with them.
It's not like they're going to answer. I'm sure they'll be even less responsive than NASA was when I pointed out a km/mi goof on their website. (Two different pages, one gave the value as miles, one gave the same number as kilometers. Even without knowing the right value it's apparent that one must be wrong.)

I'm simply saying this looks very suspicious and makes me think it's a nothing being blown up by the GOP.
 
So the methodology of the PES is that they choose 10,000 blocks in the US to sample people from and then they interview them to ask where they were living April 1st, 2020 and maybe also ask about other residents. Those interviews went up to March 2022. It took a long time for them to sample these 10,000 blocks in the US. They then used this for their estimate.
Thought here--Covid deaths skew red. March 2022 is about a million deaths in. And Republicans die at a higher rate for demographic reasons anyway.
 
So the methodology of the PES is that they choose 10,000 blocks in the US to sample people from and then they interview them to ask where they were living April 1st, 2020 and maybe also ask about other residents. Those interviews went up to March 2022. It took a long time for them to sample these 10,000 blocks in the US. They then used this for their estimate.
Thought here--Covid deaths skew red. March 2022 is about a million deaths in. And Republicans die at a higher rate for demographic reasons anyway.

I don't think this was it because they started from interviewing people in the PES. These people may have been more inclined to be minorities and immigrants in urban areas in the red states. ... if you look at undercount demographics.
 
I, for one, think the breakdown by state is a bit arbitrarily defined in order for people to make partisan claims. Then, other people get caught up in believing there is something partisan going on or outcomes based on partisan differences. That is, people will assume, "hey let's correct this or estimate that based on red state or blue state loss or gain of population."

So let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment to see if I can explain some problems with this oversimplification. As a thought experiment, imagine we observe racial differences in overcounting and undercounting. Black people were undercounted and white people were overcounted.

Well, it turns out that what I wrote is true. Black people WERE undercounted. And White people WERE overcounted.
I am aware that black people were undercounted - as were first nations.

On the other hand... House seats aren't apportioned on the basis of melanin content or ancestry. They're apportioned to the STATES. I did not suggest any kind of partisan conspiracy in the Census count. I do, however, OBSERVE that the miscounts result in a different portion of house seats being granted to those states where the count was off by a statistically significant amount.

And we can hem and haw about "oversimplifications" all you want - but at the end of the day, there is broad recognition among all of us - including you - that some states are more likely to vote republican, and some states are more likely to vote democrat. This isn't a mystery, it's not some massive unknown that we're all just speculating about. It's an observation based on many years of historical voting patterns.

It doesn't have to be some grand conspiracy to still have an observably inappropriate outcome, one that has a material impact on the presidential election, as well as on any other legislation addressed by the house. It needn't be *intentional* to still have a large and undue impact - one that undermines the representative nature of our democracy.
 
If the miscounts had gone the other direction - if the undercounted states were predominantly blue states, and the overcounted states were predominantly red states - would you guys be arguing so strongly that it's a nothingburger? Be honest with yourselves on this.

I'd be arguing that it's a big problem to have statistically significant miscounts in the census which affect apportionment, regardless of which party it benefits or harms. I'd be arguing that it's a big problem if we didn't have parties at all.
 
I, for one, think the breakdown by state is a bit arbitrarily defined in order for people to make partisan claims. Then, other people get caught up in believing there is something partisan going on or outcomes based on partisan differences. That is, people will assume, "hey let's correct this or estimate that based on red state or blue state loss or gain of population."

So let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment to see if I can explain some problems with this oversimplification. As a thought experiment, imagine we observe racial differences in overcounting and undercounting. Black people were undercounted and white people were overcounted.

Well, it turns out that what I wrote is true. Black people WERE undercounted. And White people WERE overcounted.
I am aware that black people were undercounted - as were first nations.

On the other hand... House seats aren't apportioned on the basis of melanin content or ancestry. They're apportioned to the STATES. I did not suggest any kind of partisan conspiracy in the Census count. I do, however, OBSERVE that the miscounts result in a different portion of house seats being granted to those states where the count was off by a statistically significant amount.

And we can hem and haw about "oversimplifications" all you want - but at the end of the day, there is broad recognition among all of us - including you - that some states are more likely to vote republican, and some states are more likely to vote democrat. This isn't a mystery, it's not some massive unknown that we're all just speculating about. It's an observation based on many years of historical voting patterns.

It doesn't have to be some grand conspiracy to still have an observably inappropriate outcome, one that has a material impact on the presidential election, as well as on any other legislation addressed by the house. It needn't be *intentional* to still have a large and undue impact - one that undermines the representative nature of our democracy.

WOW, there is absolutely nothing you wrote that addresses what I wrote. Did you even understand what I wrote? Doesn't sound like it! Let's try again. The so-called victims you are hemming and hawing about are white people from red states, i.e. Republicans. BUT white people were overcounted, not undercounted. It's the immigrants and minorities that were undercounted, not white people, not Republicans most assuredly. Black people and Hispanics voted for Biden in 2020 by large margins even in red states. So missing apportionment means growing blue representative counts in red states or at least possibly*.

Take Florida, for example, with adjusted numbers and proper representation in districts with immigrants and minorities, i.e. urban areas, it is conceivable that another representative or 2 would be present. Until such time as Republicans fuck it up with redistricting, that would change the nature of Congress, making it more blue.

*You have to put a lot of trust in the numbers from the PES which can have systemic issues without understanding root causes of discrepancies. The PES isn't necessarily more correct than the census.
 
I, for one, think the breakdown by state is a bit arbitrarily defined in order for people to make partisan claims. Then, other people get caught up in believing there is something partisan going on or outcomes based on partisan differences. That is, people will assume, "hey let's correct this or estimate that based on red state or blue state loss or gain of population."

So let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment to see if I can explain some problems with this oversimplification. As a thought experiment, imagine we observe racial differences in overcounting and undercounting. Black people were undercounted and white people were overcounted.

Well, it turns out that what I wrote is true. Black people WERE undercounted. And White people WERE overcounted.
I am aware that black people were undercounted - as were first nations.

On the other hand... House seats aren't apportioned on the basis of melanin content or ancestry. They're apportioned to the STATES. I did not suggest any kind of partisan conspiracy in the Census count. I do, however, OBSERVE that the miscounts result in a different portion of house seats being granted to those states where the count was off by a statistically significant amount.

And we can hem and haw about "oversimplifications" all you want - but at the end of the day, there is broad recognition among all of us - including you - that some states are more likely to vote republican, and some states are more likely to vote democrat. This isn't a mystery, it's not some massive unknown that we're all just speculating about. It's an observation based on many years of historical voting patterns.

It doesn't have to be some grand conspiracy to still have an observably inappropriate outcome, one that has a material impact on the presidential election, as well as on any other legislation addressed by the house. It needn't be *intentional* to still have a large and undue impact - one that undermines the representative nature of our democracy.

WOW, there is absolutely nothing you wrote that addresses what I wrote. Did you even understand what I wrote? Doesn't sound like it! Let's try again. The so-called victims you are hemming and hawing about are white people from red states, i.e. Republicans. BUT white people were overcounted, not undercounted. It's the immigrants and minorities that were undercounted, not white people, not Republicans most assuredly. Black people and Hispanics voted for Biden in 2020 by large margins even in red states. So missing apportionment means growing blue representative counts in red states or at least possibly*.

Take Florida, for example, with adjusted numbers and proper representation in districts with immigrants and minorities, i.e. urban areas, it is conceivable that another representative or 2 would be present. Until such time as Republicans fuck it up with redistricting, that would change the nature of Congress, making it more blue.

*You have to put a lot of trust in the numbers from the PES which can have systemic issues without understanding root causes of discrepancies. The PES isn't necessarily more correct than the census.
You really aren't getting me at all.

I'm not hemming and hawing about "victims" at all. If black people in Texas were undercounted... it still means that TEXAS has less representation in the house than it should have - and that's representation for black people and white people both! It also means that the electoral votes of those states are off from what they ought to be.
 
On the other hand... House seats aren't apportioned on the basis of melanin content or ancestry. They're apportioned to the STATES. I did not suggest any kind of partisan conspiracy in the Census count. I do, however, OBSERVE that the miscounts result in a different portion of house seats being granted to those states where the count was off by a statistically significant amount.
There still has been nothing to address whether it's the census or the survey that's at fault.
 
It also means that the electoral votes of those states are off from what they ought to be.
My rough calculations suggest that at worst New York has gained 1 EV at Florida's expense. The errors in the other states are too small to matter...
 
It also means that the electoral votes of those states are off from what they ought to be.
My rough calculations suggest that at worst New York has gained 1 EV at Florida's expense. The errors in the other states are too small to matter...

Also, we're probably talking blue districts in Florida. White people were overcounted. Blacks and Hispanics were undercounted. Minorities and immigrants could have been afraid to do the census in red states.*

*this assumes that the PES survey represents reality far better than the census. The census bureau explicitly does make that claim.
 
On the other hand... House seats aren't apportioned on the basis of melanin content or ancestry. They're apportioned to the STATES. I did not suggest any kind of partisan conspiracy in the Census count. I do, however, OBSERVE that the miscounts result in a different portion of house seats being granted to those states where the count was off by a statistically significant amount.
There still has been nothing to address whether it's the census or the survey that's at fault.
You mean OTHER THAN THE CENSUS BUREAU saying that the error is in the census?
 
Census Bureau said:
A net coverage error rate is the difference between the census count and the PES estimate of the number of people in the United States expressed as a percentage of the PES estimate. Note that neither represent a “true count” because, of course, it is impossible to achieve a perfect count.

If an estimated net coverage error is negative, it means the census counts may have been too low and the census missed some people. We call this an undercount. If it is positive, it means the census counts may have been too high, indicating some people may have been counted in error or more than once. We call this an overcount.

These are estimates. There can be systemic problems with estimates especially when the methodology has changed. The CB provides standard errors for their estimates which are also estimates.

In any case, even IF we believe these estimates, it could be that Hispanics and Blacks in urban areas of red states were the ones undercounted by a wide margin as opposed to white people in rural areas of red states in question. This is because the estimates also say that White people were overcounted (according to what they mean by an overcount, i.e. may have been) and they say that Hispanics and Blacks were undercounted (i.e. may have been undercounted).
 
In any case, even IF we believe these estimates, it could be that Hispanics and Blacks in urban areas of red states were the ones undercounted by a wide margin as opposed to white people in rural areas of red states in question.
If the census estimates that a state has 2,900,000 million people, and it undercounted black and hispanic people by 200,000... what is the effect on the number of seats that state has in congress?

Does the melanin content of the undercounted people make any difference to the number of representatives at all?
 
I will ask you to address the part of my post you snipped. The survey estimates are estimates that could have systemic issues. It is necessary to delve into the root causes of discrepancies before deciding which one is right or rather to what extent there are errors in either. The extra information provided by a survey is a tool to better understand quality that needs to be followed up on, rather than accepted as a NEW, BETTER count. This is also true because the sampling survey does not provide a count, but instead a range with confidence intervals which themselves may be imperfect.

In any case, even IF we believe these estimates, it could be that Hispanics and Blacks in urban areas of red states were the ones undercounted by a wide margin as opposed to white people in rural areas of red states in question.
If the census estimates that a state has 2,900,000 million people, and it undercounted black and hispanic people by 200,000... what is the effect on the number of seats that state has in congress?

I am not sure you should call the census an estimate, it certainly isn't doing random sampling. Sure, it's not perfect so it is an estimate in that sense, but it is an attempt at a full count. So it counts. Or enumerates or whatever.

Now you next are using a verb "undercounted" instead of that there is an ESTIMATE for an undercount and that undercount could have systemic issues and IS based on sampling, not an attempt to do a full count. The sampling ALSO is not a primary source of information in the sense of time because it is gathered up to early 2022 and is based on people's memories of exactly where they resided on April 1st, 2020 a very chaotic time because of the pandemic. So, it is certainly proper to call THIS one based on sampling and recollections an estimate or at a minimum it is MORE APPROPRIATE to call the latter number an estimate than the first.

You are free to call the first one an estimate, but if you do that and choose not to call the second one an estimate something is amiss.

So let's try this rewording:
A census does a full count of a state's population as 3,011,524. (See how this is better? The census isn't rounding to the nearest hundred thousand or estimating.) According to a survey which might be wrong and have systemic issues, an estimate of an undercount for that state is 151,781 which is a midpoint of a confidence interval.

Do you disagree so far with the changes in wording?
 
Let's look at the next section of what Emily wrote:

......and it undercounted black and hispanic people by 200,000... what is the effect on the number of seats that state has in congress?

Does the melanin content of the undercounted people make any difference to the number of representatives at all?

We need to go back in the discussion to see what precipitated this line of inquiry and it started with the following claim by Emily:
Emily Lake said:
The acknowledged overcount of blue states and undercount of red states by the Census Bureau in 2020 prevented some states - including California - from reducing the number of seats they hold in the House.

It's not hypothetical. It's a very real effect that has resulted in IIRC somewhere on the order of Democrats holding 6 seats more than they should have, and Republicans 6 fewer at the last reapportionment. Census also acknowledged that it's the most significant counting error they've had.

So when we began this discussion it was about California, but let's ignore that one...there was a claim not that there was some missing rando representatives but in particular 6 extra Democrats as well as 6 missing Republicans. We need to either add that partisan context back into the questions being posed or receive a mathematical proof of the whole claim which is what some people such as jonatha have been asking for.

I believe jonatha should keep asking his questions.

In the meantime, here's an attempt to add back the claim into the question:
......and IF it undercounted black and hispanic people by 151,781... what is the effect on the partisan representation that state has in congress?

Does the melanin content of the undercounted people make any difference to the partisan representation of the state?

Is some other rewording of the questions preferred over this?
 
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