When the US (likely Trump) freezes out and seizes the assets of Chinese companies in the USA, will that justify China deposing your president? Do american drone strikes on foreign citizens justify them assassinating your government officials? Just switching around the names of doers and done tos on these US actions tells me all I need to know about the USA and its rank hypocrisy.
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Trump and neocons started War with Iran in order to win elections?
- Thread starter barbos
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When the US (likely Trump) freezes out and seizes the assets of Chinese companies in the USA, will that justify China deposing your president? Do american drone strikes on foreign citizens justify them assassinating your government officials? Just switching around the names of doers and done tos on these US actions tells me all I need to know about the USA and its rank hypocrisy.
lpetrich
Contributor
There was a press conference on 2020 Jan 8 (or 7), but I can only find snippets of it.
Rep. Ilhan Omar on Twitter: "War destroys lives.
It takes away futures and it destroys generations.
I learned that lesson at the young age of 8.
The world and the American people asking us to act differently this time. #NoWarwithIran https://t.co/Vey5H3xgxh" / Twitter
She seems to reject *all* war, something that I consider naive.
Tommy Pigott on Twitter: "Rep. Ilhan Omar condemns “crippling” sanctions against Iran, saying they target the people of Iran, despite being an avid supporter of BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) against the people of Israel https://t.co/qjDQBS0HVh" / Twitter
Ilhan Omar on Twitter: "This makes no sense. Sanctions are economic warfare.
They have already caused medical shortages and countless deaths in Iran.
You cannot claim to want deescalation and then announce new sanctions with no clear goal. This is not a measured response! https://t.co/sGWtwXuNDT" / Twitter
noting
BuzzFeed News on Twitter: "Trump: The US "will immediately impose additional punishing economic sanctions" on Iran as we evaluate options https://t.co/sfVxNPNmWP" / Twitter
I remember a town hall by AOC where she stated that she likes sanctions directed at elites like the Magnitsky Act, not sanctions directed at ordinary people.
Rep. Ilhan Omar on Twitter: "War destroys lives.
It takes away futures and it destroys generations.
I learned that lesson at the young age of 8.
The world and the American people asking us to act differently this time. #NoWarwithIran https://t.co/Vey5H3xgxh" / Twitter
She seems to reject *all* war, something that I consider naive.
Tommy Pigott on Twitter: "Rep. Ilhan Omar condemns “crippling” sanctions against Iran, saying they target the people of Iran, despite being an avid supporter of BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) against the people of Israel https://t.co/qjDQBS0HVh" / Twitter
Ilhan Omar on Twitter: "This makes no sense. Sanctions are economic warfare.
They have already caused medical shortages and countless deaths in Iran.
You cannot claim to want deescalation and then announce new sanctions with no clear goal. This is not a measured response! https://t.co/sGWtwXuNDT" / Twitter
noting
BuzzFeed News on Twitter: "Trump: The US "will immediately impose additional punishing economic sanctions" on Iran as we evaluate options https://t.co/sfVxNPNmWP" / Twitter
I remember a town hall by AOC where she stated that she likes sanctions directed at elites like the Magnitsky Act, not sanctions directed at ordinary people.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
Because when we do it, it is good because we are good. And when they do it, it is bad because they are bad.
Jimmy Higgins
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Does geography change once the US gets involved in a war? Because last time I check, Iran is a pain in the ass to mobilize troops inside from the borders.
lpetrich
Contributor
I decided to check on Iraq vs. Iran as nations to fight, so I looked for population and GDP numbers.
The World Factbook - Central Intelligence Agency
Iraq:
Population: 40,194,216 (July 2018 est.)
GDP (PPP): $649.3 billion (2017 est., 2017 dollars)
GDP per capital (PPP): $16,700 (2017 est., 2017 dollars)
Military spending: 2.73% of GDP (2018)
Online figures readily available only for recent years, not for the nation at the time of George Bush II's invasion of it.
Iran:
Population: 83,024,745 (July 2018 est.)
GDP (PPP): $1.64 trillion (2017 est., 2017 dollars)
GDP per capita (PPP): $20,100 (2017 est., 2017 dollars)
Military spending: 2.67% of GDP (2018)
So Iran has 2.1 the population and 2.5 the economy size and military spending of Iraq.
The World Factbook - Central Intelligence Agency
Iraq:
Population: 40,194,216 (July 2018 est.)
GDP (PPP): $649.3 billion (2017 est., 2017 dollars)
GDP per capital (PPP): $16,700 (2017 est., 2017 dollars)
Military spending: 2.73% of GDP (2018)
Online figures readily available only for recent years, not for the nation at the time of George Bush II's invasion of it.
Iran:
Population: 83,024,745 (July 2018 est.)
GDP (PPP): $1.64 trillion (2017 est., 2017 dollars)
GDP per capita (PPP): $20,100 (2017 est., 2017 dollars)
Military spending: 2.67% of GDP (2018)
So Iran has 2.1 the population and 2.5 the economy size and military spending of Iraq.
SimpleDon
Veteran Member
I don't know why Trump decided to drone this man. It is a reasonable guess that he did it to advance his own interests because this seems to be the only reason that he does anything. But there is no question that in this case, he has blundered into a win.
I have good friends in Iran that I met in college and reconnected with to develop business connections. I helped them through the years by hiring the son of one to get a visa to work here after college and to buy US sourced equipment and spare parts when the US suppliers couldn't be bothered to realize that these sales weren't subject to the US's embargo. And they helped me by steering some business my way and to provide my son with a place to stay in London for his study abroad at the University of the College of London as well as the use of their season tickets to the Arsenal FC soccer club matches.
They have always empathized to me that the overwhelming majority of the Iranians are pro-American and against the mullahs who have destroyed Iran's place in the world because of their insane Shia vs. Sunni fundamentalist crusade. I haven't been able to talk to them or correspond with them since this happened. They are reluctant to put their take on the situation in writing that might be used against them, they are Jewish and constantly walk a tightrope of tolerance in Iran and only discuss these things when they visit me in the US. So this is how I view the situation right now with what I have been told and been able to read.
The mullahs were constantly increasing their attacks through their proxies and directly using their military to see what the limits are to American tolerance. Trump provided the answer, probably inadvertently. I think that what decided him on this course of action was when he heard that Obama was too afraid of the consequences of killing this guy to do it. It is not in Trump's nature to worry about the consequences of his actions. Or to worry about the consequences to the nation.
As I said before the greatest problem with Trump is that he will poison the well for a generation for the few things that he has been right about.
Jimmy Higgins
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And now we have intel indicating that two assassinations were attempted, with Soleimani's succeeding.
The "imminent threat" is much like Trump's illegal tariffs that exist for "national security" purposes. Nothing keeps this guy in check.
So another not great guy was targeted but not killed. This opens the scope and further exposes the bs of the "imminent" threat.article said:
The "imminent threat" is much like Trump's illegal tariffs that exist for "national security" purposes. Nothing keeps this guy in check.
blastula
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Jimmy Higgins
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And this is why the White House doesn't allow recording devices anywhere near him.
Elixir
Made in America
I guess he got a win, if his intent was to poison the well for yet another generation (which I wouldn't doubt).
Attributes of a "win":
* A population once divided is now unified in support of the most extreme factions of Iranian government
* Iraq has told us to go home
* Trump has set in motion some very dangerous forces of which he has zero understanding, and as a result there are already 174 people killed including 60-something Canadians in a commercial airliner shoot-down and another 56 Iranians killed in a funeral mob.
* All Americans traveling in the region or other regions where terrorist splinter groups operate are now at greater risk
* Our former allies are confused and abandoning us
* Russia can now consolidate its control and influence in the middle east, and
* We still have an insane Adderall addict commanding the largest military force in the world
So much winning! And the only downside is that there's one less bad hombre for Trump to complain about and blame Obama for.
Two issues were being discussed--the guy we overthrew and the hostage incident. I simply addressed both in one message.
Hopefully Congress will fix this eventually--mandate recording devices other than for times with one's family.
For this administration, that exception will be abused as if it were a red-headed step-child.
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Exactly. So the guy wanted to side with Russia. That still doesn't give anyone except his own countrymen the right to take him out.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
War Powers have been broken since the War Powers resolution under the first term of Bush the lesser. It is pretty sad that it took this long for Congress to realize that they had the actual power over declaration of war ... and even more sad that it took Trump for them to remember it.
lpetrich
Contributor
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Trump’s “imminent threat” is the new “WMD”: there’s no evidence given for either." / Twitter
George Bush II's claim that Saddam's regime was building weapons of mass destruction.
I add the
Gulf of Tonkin Incident of 1964. LBJ's administration used it to convince Congress to support increased involvement in the Vietnam War. However, it did not quite happen as described to Congress, and it was not much of a pretext for war.
Also the explosion of the battleship USS Maine (ACR-1) in Havana harbor in 1898. Certain journalists howled that it was Spanish or Cuban saboteurs - "Remember the Maine!" - but other investigators concluded that a coal-dust explosion was more likely.
It became a pretext of the Spanish-American War, and after nearly 4 months of fighting, Cuba became a US protectorate, and Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines US colonies.
Justin Amash on Twitter: "Matt Gaetz hasn’t changed his position on war powers. He had the same position when President Obama was in office. It’s the constitutionally conservative position.
For that—for consistency—he faces the GOP’s wrath. Only Trump matters. Even the Trumpiest congressman gets no pass. https://t.co/3jWChWW4oc" / Twitter
noting
Josh Dawsey on Twitter: "After Rep. Matt Gaetz circulated an email to all other Republican members urging them to vote to curb Trump’s Iran power, other Republicans fought back, private emails show. Gaetz was ratted out to White House. POTUS not happy. https://t.co/sqreiqNJdn" / Twitter
noting
Trump angered by House ally’s push to limit his authority on Iran - The Washington Post
George Bush II's claim that Saddam's regime was building weapons of mass destruction.
I add the
Gulf of Tonkin Incident of 1964. LBJ's administration used it to convince Congress to support increased involvement in the Vietnam War. However, it did not quite happen as described to Congress, and it was not much of a pretext for war.Also the explosion of the battleship
USS Maine (ACR-1) in Havana harbor in 1898. Certain journalists howled that it was Spanish or Cuban saboteurs - "Remember the Maine!" - but other investigators concluded that a coal-dust explosion was more likely.It became a pretext of the Spanish-American War, and after nearly 4 months of fighting, Cuba became a US protectorate, and Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines US colonies.
Justin Amash on Twitter: "Matt Gaetz hasn’t changed his position on war powers. He had the same position when President Obama was in office. It’s the constitutionally conservative position.
For that—for consistency—he faces the GOP’s wrath. Only Trump matters. Even the Trumpiest congressman gets no pass. https://t.co/3jWChWW4oc" / Twitter
noting
Josh Dawsey on Twitter: "After Rep. Matt Gaetz circulated an email to all other Republican members urging them to vote to curb Trump’s Iran power, other Republicans fought back, private emails show. Gaetz was ratted out to White House. POTUS not happy. https://t.co/sqreiqNJdn" / Twitter
noting
Trump angered by House ally’s push to limit his authority on Iran - The Washington Post
barbos
Contributor
Engine failures are rarely immediately catastrophic. And here we have fast catastrophic failure coinciding with a lot of military activity in the air.
Anyway, M their turned out to be correct one, Iran shot that plane.
James Brown
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Lies about wars lead to more wars.
By the same token, killing Iranian officials could be a highly effective way of provoking Iranian retaliations that inflame American opinion and drive support for aggressive acts that the public wouldn’t otherwise get behind. The key way to break the cycle is to demand that the American government give a clear, convincing, and honest account of what it is doing and why — and to stop treating its refusal to do so as a secondary plot, when in fact it’s at the very heart of the story.
So this guy was going to conduct an 'imminent attack' but we killed him first. We can't tell you any details about that attack, but trust us! You should be really, really grateful about what we prevented from happening.
By the same token, killing Iranian officials could be a highly effective way of provoking Iranian retaliations that inflame American opinion and drive support for aggressive acts that the public wouldn’t otherwise get behind. The key way to break the cycle is to demand that the American government give a clear, convincing, and honest account of what it is doing and why — and to stop treating its refusal to do so as a secondary plot, when in fact it’s at the very heart of the story.
So this guy was going to conduct an 'imminent attack' but we killed him first. We can't tell you any details about that attack, but trust us! You should be really, really grateful about what we prevented from happening.
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repoman
Contributor
Better than wimp GHWB being a punk and saying America is never wrong when we shot down the Iranian passenger plane in 1988. Piece of crap.