Split UBI - Split From Breakdown In Civil Order

[Emily Lake]

Nope. It's a portion of revenue from state-owned mineral resources that are sold or leased. Prices aren't raised to support the dividends.

So from where do the dividends ultimately arise, if not from the revenues from the sale of these mineral resources?

Prices aren't "raised", only because that dividend was always built into them. Prices would fall, if that dividend no longer needed to be paid.

I can't even find a smiley for the expression I want to make.

No, that's not how it works. The state leases or sells those mineral rights at market prices, and it splits the revenue with the population of the state. If that weren't written into the laws, the state would still sell those mineral rights at the same prices, but they'd pocket the money. They're not out there charging extra high rates so they can support the dividends. That's not at all how it works.

 

[Emily Lake]

It's also clear that you're stuck in a black and white thought process. If something doesn't meet your very narrow definition than it cannot be what it clearly is to people whose mind isn't so closed.

I'm in a mindset where UBI means a particular thing, with that thing being UBI as defined by the people who fucking invented the concept. My mind is closed to people who humpty-dumpty new meanings for UBI so they can wedge things that are clearly NOT UBI into their newly-adjusted meaning of UBI.

 

[Emily Lake]

FYI, the top tax bracket in America used to be 90%.

And incomes weren't nearly as divided then as they are now.

They also weren't nearly as divided the century before that, when the tax rates were much lower all around. What's your point?

Do you somehow thing that the lowering of the top marginal rate is the CAUSE of poverty in the US? That everything was peachy, and then they dropped that marginal rate and it all went to shit?

 

[Emily Lake]

Your argument about how people choose their physicians in the US is extremely flawed: most people select their physicians from a list provided by their insurance companies of which physicians the insurance company will compensate if a patient decides to use that physician/health practitioner/clinic/hospital. The insurance companies further determine which procedures they will pay for under which set of circumstances and how much they will pay for services. These change from insurance company to instance company and from year to year within the same geographic region/city/neighborhood.

Thank you for educating me on how the industry I've worked in for 25 years functions.

 

[Emily Lake]

You are correct that there are not enough generalist in the medical profession, but you seem to lack any grasp of why that is. The fact is that it is extremely expensive to become a physician in addition to being difficult and taking a lot of time. Generalists are compensated at levels so low that it is difficult for them to be able to pay back their student loans —and do normal, age appropriate things such as marry, have children, buy a home. Graduating med school with hundreds of thousands in student debt, it is unsurprising that a lot of newly minted or about to be minted docs go into specialties which help them to be able to do all of those things.

Why do you think this?

What's the Price Tag on Medical School in 2024? | Bold.org

This article gives students info about medical school costs in the United States to help them make an informed decision about where to attend medical school.

bold.org

Harvard Medical School
Full-time tuition: $63,400

John Hopkins University, Baltimore
Full-time tuition: $54,900

University of Pennsylvania
Full-time tuition: $59,910

New York University Grossman School
Full-time tuition: $53,308 - awards all accepted students a full tuition scholarship

Stanford University School of Medicine
Full-time tuition: $60,234

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Primary-Care-Physician-Salary#:~:text=How%20much%20does%20a%20Primary,%2Fweek%20or%20%2418%2C120%2Fmonth.

How much does a Primary Care Physician make?​

As of Jan 4, 2024, the average annual pay for a Primary Care Physician in the United States is $217,445 a year.

Just in case you need a simple salary calculator, that works out to be approximately $104.54 an hour. This is the equivalent of $4,181/week or $18,120/month.

 

[Emily Lake]

If wealth were more evenly distributed instead of being grossly concentrated into the hands of a few, then everyone could pay taxes to take care of funding public works and needs.

And? Support policies that accomplish that while also being just, being long-term sustainable, and not being a means by which to punish some few for the sin of being wealthy. Find a solution that aligns with human nature in a realistic fashion, so it can be maintained over time.

I think you and I think about a lot of things differently. For example, I don’t regard the taxes I pay as punishment for being reasonably secure in the middle class. Hell, when I had my first real job, I was very proud to be paying social security taxes because I knew what I paid was helping support my grandparents who had worked for decades at work that was extremely physically demanding, with uncertain incomes and previous few protections. But then, even at 21 years of age, I understood how SS works in the US.

I don't regard them as punishment at their current rates. But if those rates increased substantially, with the express intention of literally giving money to other people as income for nothing, I very likely would.

A moderate increase to support well-thought out policies that are likely to be effective, I'm all in. A large increase to support poorly thought out policies that don't address any of the underlying problems is nothing more than snake oil put out by people who want to be seen to stick it to the wealth while giving lip service to helping the poor while not being bothered to actually have to change the situation that resulted in them being poor in the first place.

 

[laughing dog]

You are correct that there are not enough generalist in the medical profession, but you seem to lack any grasp of why that is. The fact is that it is extremely expensive to become a physician in addition to being difficult and taking a lot of time. Generalists are compensated at levels so low that it is difficult for them to be able to pay back their student loans —and do normal, age appropriate things such as marry, have children, buy a home. Graduating med school with hundreds of thousands in student debt, it is unsurprising that a lot of newly minted or about to be minted docs go into specialties which help them to be able to do all of those things.

Why do you think this?

What's the Price Tag on Medical School in 2024? | Bold.org

This article gives students info about medical school costs in the United States to help them make an informed decision about where to attend medical school.

bold.org

Harvard Medical School
Full-time tuition: $63,400

John Hopkins University, Baltimore
Full-time tuition: $54,900

University of Pennsylvania
Full-time tuition: $59,910

New York University Grossman School
Full-time tuition: $53,308 - awards all accepted students a full tuition scholarship

Stanford University School of Medicine
Full-time tuition: $60,234

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Primary-Care-Physician-Salary#:~:text=How%20much%20does%20a%20Primary,%2Fweek%20or%20%2418%2C120%2Fmonth.

How much does a Primary Care Physician make?​

As of Jan 4, 2024, the average annual pay for a Primary Care Physician in the United States is $217,445 a year.

Just in case you need a simple salary calculator, that works out to be approximately $104.54 an hour. This is the equivalent of $4,181/week or $18,120/month.

Medical school is 4 years. Annual tuition in your examples exceeds 50k, si 4 years is at least 200k.

 

[Toni]

You are correct that there are not enough generalist in the medical profession, but you seem to lack any grasp of why that is. The fact is that it is extremely expensive to become a physician in addition to being difficult and taking a lot of time. Generalists are compensated at levels so low that it is difficult for them to be able to pay back their student loans —and do normal, age appropriate things such as marry, have children, buy a home. Graduating med school with hundreds of thousands in student debt, it is unsurprising that a lot of newly minted or about to be minted docs go into specialties which help them to be able to do all of those things.

Why do you think this?

What's the Price Tag on Medical School in 2024? | Bold.org

This article gives students info about medical school costs in the United States to help them make an informed decision about where to attend medical school.

bold.org

Harvard Medical School
Full-time tuition: $63,400

John Hopkins University, Baltimore
Full-time tuition: $54,900

University of Pennsylvania
Full-time tuition: $59,910

New York University Grossman School
Full-time tuition: $53,308 - awards all accepted students a full tuition scholarship

Stanford University School of Medicine
Full-time tuition: $60,234

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Primary-Care-Physician-Salary#:~:text=How%20much%20does%20a%20Primary,%2Fweek%20or%20%2418%2C120%2Fmonth.

How much does a Primary Care Physician make?​

As of Jan 4, 2024, the average annual pay for a Primary Care Physician in the United States is $217,445 a year.

Just in case you need a simple salary calculator, that works out to be approximately $104.54 an hour. This is the equivalent of $4,181/week or $18,120/month.

Medical school is 4 years. Annual tuition in your examples exceeds 50k, si 4 years is at least 200k.

Tuition is not the entire cost of medical school. One requires housing and food and reliable transportation, a cell phone and computer, books, supplies and a lotbb ch if other things.

$200K is a nice salary! But it’s hardly luxurious if one is also paying off student debt, and almost certainly consumer debt and other debt accrued while arming little income. and it is insufficient to pay fur 2 mortgages( the second mortgage being student debt) in addition to other middle class accouterments: transportation, wardrobe, decent housing, etc. it’s just not lavish, particularly compared with the hours worked.

 

[bilby]

Okay, seriously, folks. Give this some thought - if the US restructured corporate taxes to something that made even of modicum of sense... and reduced personal taxes on all but the very highest brackets to offset that change... Do you think UBI would even be needed?

Yes, of course it would.

How much benefit do you imagine an unemployed person gets from having his personal income taxes reduced?

How much benefit do you imagine someone earning less than the standard deduction gets from having his personal income taxes reduced?

And these are just the groups of people who get zero benefit from tax cuts. Immediately above them in income are people who get a benefit from the cuts, but for whom its dollar value is utterly inadequate to achieve anything worthwhile.

Why aren't you out there arguing that ALL countries should have UBI? Why aren't you a proponent of this as the best possible solution for the entire planet?

What on Earth makes you think that I am not?

Your laser focus on the United States of America isn't a perspective that I either share, or admire; Frankly I would be much happier to discuss this topic with reference to an OECD nation with a less bizarre and ideosyncratic set of fundamental assumptions about economics and personal finances, because the unspoken (and often unconsidered) assumption, that the USA is the sole basis and exemplar for all of this stuff, is frankly stupid and exhausting.

But to use any other nation's status quo as the basis for this debate would exclude most of the Americans here from participation in our discussion, because Americans show an astonishing disinclination to attempt to grasp the fact that other countries are not "just like the US, only not as good".

I have, perforce, become familiar with strange and uniquely American terms and their specific meanings in US speak, like FICA, 401k, HMO, Social Security, Red/Blue politics, etc., etc., and I recognise that attempting to persuade any worthwhile number of Americans to gain a similar understanding of the jargon used in any non-US country, sufficient to discuss such things as UBI, is a futile excercise.

We are talking only about the USA, because you are talking only about the USA.

As an example of this, we need look no further than your question:

Why aren't you out there arguing that ALL countries should have UBI?

Your absolute, rock-solid, unquestioned and unquestionable assumption that I am not - That this entire discussion is and must be ONLY about your country, and your country alone - is an astonishing failure on your part.

I only wish that I could also describe it as surprising, but it is, sadly, the very opposite of surprising.

I don't live in the US. I rarely visit the US. I have never worked in the US. I care very little for or about the US. But I understand that if I am to discuss anything online, I need to do the hard work of learning about Anerican systems, policies, methods, and problems; Because Americans are both by far the most numerous and vocal group of netizens, and by far the least likely to have any knowledge whatsoever about the world outside their home country, or to put in the hard work to learn.

 

[ZiprHead]

It's also clear that you're stuck in a black and white thought process. If something doesn't meet your very narrow definition than it cannot be what it clearly is to people whose mind isn't so closed.

I'm in a mindset where UBI means a particular thing, with that thing being UBI as defined by the people who fucking invented the concept. My mind is closed to people who humpty-dumpty new meanings for UBI so they can wedge things that are clearly NOT UBI into their newly-adjusted meaning of UBI.

Okay. What makes it not UBI?

Alaska UBI

 

[Toni]

Okay, seriously, folks. Give this some thought - if the US restructured corporate taxes to something that made even of modicum of sense... and reduced personal taxes on all but the very highest brackets to offset that change... Do you think UBI would even be needed?

Yes, of course it would.

How much benefit do you imagine an unemployed person gets from having his personal income taxes reduced?

How much benefit do you imagine someone earning less than the standard deduction gets from having his personal income taxes reduced?

And these are just the groups of people who get zero benefit from tax cuts. Immediately above them in income are people who get a benefit from the cuts, but for whom its dollar value is utterly inadequate to achieve anything worthwhile.

Why aren't you out there arguing that ALL countries should have UBI? Why aren't you a proponent of this as the best possible solution for the entire planet?

What on Earth makes you think that I am not?

Your laser focus on the United States of America isn't a perspective that I either share, or admire; Frankly I would be much happier to discuss this topic with reference to an OECD nation with a less bizarre and ideosyncratic set of fundamental assumptions about economics and personal finances, because the unspoken (and often unconsidered) assumption, that the USA is the sole basis and exemplar for all of this stuff, is frankly stupid and exhausting.

But to use any other nation's status quo as the basis for this debate would exclude most of the Americans here from participation in our discussion, because Americans show an astonishing disinclination to attempt to grasp the fact that other countries are not "just like the US, only not as good".

I have, perforce, become familiar with strange and uniquely American terms and their specific meanings in US speak, like FICA, 401k, HMO, Social Security, Red/Blue politics, etc., etc., and I recognise that attempting to persuade any worthwhile number of Americans to gain a similar understanding of the jargon used in any non-US country, sufficient to discuss such things as UBI, is a futile excercise.

We are talking only about the USA, because you are talking only about the USA.

As an example of this, we need look no further than your question:

Why aren't you out there arguing that ALL countries should have UBI?

Your absolute, rock-solid, unquestioned and unquestionable assumption that I am not - That this entire discussion is and must be ONLY about your country, and your country alone - is an astonishing failure on your part.

I only wish that I could also describe it as surprising, but it is, sadly, the very opposite of surprising.

I don't live in the US. I rarely visit the US. I have never worked in the US. I care very little for or about the US. But I understand that if I am to discuss anything online, I need to do the hard work of learning about Anerican systems, policies, methods, and problems; Because Americans are both by far the most numerous and vocal group of netizens, and by far the least likely to have any knowledge whatsoever about the world outside their home country, or to put in the hard work to learn.

Just an aside: I write only from an American perspective because I am fully aware that I am not sufficiently informed to make any decent comment on how other countries handle certain issues. I’m always interested in hearing how other countries handle such issues, though. I appreciate other perspectives.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are correct that there are not enough generalist in the medical profession, but you seem to lack any grasp of why that is. The fact is that it is extremely expensive to become a physician in addition to being difficult and taking a lot of time. Generalists are compensated at levels so low that it is difficult for them to be able to pay back their student loans —and do normal, age appropriate things such as marry, have children, buy a home. Graduating med school with hundreds of thousands in student debt, it is unsurprising that a lot of newly minted or about to be minted docs go into specialties which help them to be able to do all of those things.

Why do you think this?

What's the Price Tag on Medical School in 2024? | Bold.org

This article gives students info about medical school costs in the United States to help them make an informed decision about where to attend medical school.

bold.org

Harvard Medical School
Full-time tuition: $63,400

John Hopkins University, Baltimore
Full-time tuition: $54,900

University of Pennsylvania
Full-time tuition: $59,910

New York University Grossman School
Full-time tuition: $53,308 - awards all accepted students a full tuition scholarship

Stanford University School of Medicine
Full-time tuition: $60,234

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Primary-Care-Physician-Salary#:~:text=How%20much%20does%20a%20Primary,%2Fweek%20or%20%2418%2C120%2Fmonth.

How much does a Primary Care Physician make?​

As of Jan 4, 2024, the average annual pay for a Primary Care Physician in the United States is $217,445 a year.

Just in case you need a simple salary calculator, that works out to be approximately $104.54 an hour. This is the equivalent of $4,181/week or $18,120/month.

Medical school is 4 years. Annual tuition in your examples exceeds 50k, si 4 years is at least 200k.

Tuition is not the entire cost of medical school. One requires housing and food and reliable transportation, a cell phone and computer, books, supplies and a lotbb ch if other things.

$200K is a nice salary! But it’s hardly luxurious if one is also paying off student debt, and almost certainly consumer debt and other debt accrued while arming little income. and it is insufficient to pay fur 2 mortgages( the second mortgage being student debt) in addition to other middle class accouterments: transportation, wardrobe, decent housing, etc. it’s just not lavish, particularly compared with the hours worked.

Anecdotally, my FIL doctor lives a comfortable life... but it was not always like that, and there was penny pinching for years and lots of sacrifices.

 

[Gospel]

Americans are both by far the most numerous and vocal group of netizens, and by far the least likely to have any knowledge whatsoever about the world outside their home country, or to put in the hard work to learn.

Speaking for the majority of Americans here. "Ain't nobody got time for that!".

 

[Elixir]

$3T isn't even going to get you to a poverty level UBI. $5T gets to poverty level.

Very dishonest to pretend that a $15k UBI needs to cost 15k*n where n is the total population.
But par for the course.
Prob’ly time for another whining screed…

 

[Elixir]

You are correct that there are not enough generalist in the medical profession, but you seem to lack any grasp of why that is. The fact is that it is extremely expensive to become a physician in addition to being difficult and taking a lot of time. Generalists are compensated at levels so low that it is difficult for them to be able to pay back their student loans —and do normal, age appropriate things such as marry, have children, buy a home. Graduating med school with hundreds of thousands in student debt, it is unsurprising that a lot of newly minted or about to be minted docs go into specialties which help them to be able to do all of those things.

Why do you think this?

What's the Price Tag on Medical School in 2024? | Bold.org

This article gives students info about medical school costs in the United States to help them make an informed decision about where to attend medical school.

bold.org

Harvard Medical School
Full-time tuition: $63,400

John Hopkins University, Baltimore
Full-time tuition: $54,900

University of Pennsylvania
Full-time tuition: $59,910

New York University Grossman School
Full-time tuition: $53,308 - awards all accepted students a full tuition scholarship

Stanford University School of Medicine
Full-time tuition: $60,234

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Primary-Care-Physician-Salary#:~:text=How%20much%20does%20a%20Primary,%2Fweek%20or%20%2418%2C120%2Fmonth.

How much does a Primary Care Physician make?​

As of Jan 4, 2024, the average annual pay for a Primary Care Physician in the United States is $217,445 a year.

Just in case you need a simple salary calculator, that works out to be approximately $104.54 an hour. This is the equivalent of $4,181/week or $18,120/month.

Medical school is 4 years. Annual tuition in your examples exceeds 50k, si 4 years is at least 200k.

Tuition is not the entire cost of medical school. One requires housing and food and reliable transportation, a cell phone and computer, books, supplies and a lotbb ch if other things.

$200K is a nice salary! But it’s hardly luxurious if one is also paying off student debt, and almost certainly consumer debt and other debt accrued while arming little income. and it is insufficient to pay fur 2 mortgages( the second mortgage being student debt) in addition to other middle class accouterments: transportation, wardrobe, decent housing, etc. it’s just not lavish, particularly compared with the hours worked.

Anecdotally, my FIL doctor lives a comfortable life... but it was not always like that, and there was penny pinching for years and lots of sacrifices.

Same story for my brother. It took him over 30 years of practicing medicine to get into the green. Now he’s more than comfortable, but that’s largely due to having leveraged his own debt into real estate. Seems SO wrong.

 

[laughing dog]

While I can almost understand why someone might feel (not think) that a 15K UBI is not sustainable because it is unrealistically high expense, an UBI of 5K would present a much lower tax burden that should be easy to think is sustainable.

 

[Elixir]

While I can almost understand why someone might feel (not think) that a 15K UBI is not sustainable because it is unrealistically high expense, an UBI of 5K would present a much lower tax burden that should be easy to think is sustainable.

I am sure that 5k multiplied by the entire population of the US will yield a suitably unacceptable number.

Not that anyone would try to misrepresent the idea that way or anything...

 

[Gospel]

ETA: Okay, seriously, folks. Give this some thought - if the US restructured corporate taxes to something that made even of modicum of sense... and reduced personal taxes on all but the very highest brackets to offset that change... Do you think UBI would even be needed?

I wanted to revisit the highlighted section to emphasize that our goal should not be to offset personal taxes, but rather to secure funding for Universal Basic Income (UBI). The essence of UBI is to compel the extremely wealthy, who often accumulate vast amounts of wealth, to contribute a fair share to society. This is in line with the idea that corporate taxes are structured with the expectation that corporations would voluntarily support fair wages and economic distribution. To put it barbarically (because that's what this all is IMO, barbaric) we're forcing them to do what they said they'd do in exchange for tax breaks. Trickle down.

 

[Emily Lake]

You are correct that there are not enough generalist in the medical profession, but you seem to lack any grasp of why that is. The fact is that it is extremely expensive to become a physician in addition to being difficult and taking a lot of time. Generalists are compensated at levels so low that it is difficult for them to be able to pay back their student loans —and do normal, age appropriate things such as marry, have children, buy a home. Graduating med school with hundreds of thousands in student debt, it is unsurprising that a lot of newly minted or about to be minted docs go into specialties which help them to be able to do all of those things.

Why do you think this?

What's the Price Tag on Medical School in 2024? | Bold.org

This article gives students info about medical school costs in the United States to help them make an informed decision about where to attend medical school.

bold.org

Harvard Medical School
Full-time tuition: $63,400

John Hopkins University, Baltimore
Full-time tuition: $54,900

University of Pennsylvania
Full-time tuition: $59,910

New York University Grossman School
Full-time tuition: $53,308 - awards all accepted students a full tuition scholarship

Stanford University School of Medicine
Full-time tuition: $60,234

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Primary-Care-Physician-Salary#:~:text=How%20much%20does%20a%20Primary,%2Fweek%20or%20%2418%2C120%2Fmonth.

How much does a Primary Care Physician make?​

As of Jan 4, 2024, the average annual pay for a Primary Care Physician in the United States is $217,445 a year.

Just in case you need a simple salary calculator, that works out to be approximately $104.54 an hour. This is the equivalent of $4,181/week or $18,120/month.

Medical school is 4 years. Annual tuition in your examples exceeds 50k, si 4 years is at least 200k.

It's not really any different from the cost of any graduate work in terms of tuition. My masters work was just under $45K per year back in the late 90s/early 00s. On the other hand, starting salaries for ANY doctor are higher than they are for nearly all masters degree jobs, certainly higher than for academia.

Sure, a Primary Care doc might leave med school with $200K of student loan debt... but they're also starting out at $100K in salary. It's manageable even if it's high. It's certainly not any worse than any other person who had to take loans to get through a graduate program, and their starting pay is higher.

 

[Emily Lake]

Tuition is not the entire cost of medical school. One requires housing and food and reliable transportation, a cell phone and computer, books, supplies and a lotbb ch if other things.

ANY graduate program has those same costs. This isn't something unique to med school. The tuition costs, as well as all the ancillary costs, are comparable.

$200K is a nice salary! But it’s hardly luxurious if one is also paying off student debt, and almost certainly consumer debt and other debt accrued while arming little income. and it is insufficient to pay fur 2 mortgages( the second mortgage being student debt) in addition to other middle class accouterments: transportation, wardrobe, decent housing, etc. it’s just not lavish, particularly compared with the hours worked.

It's no different than the reality faced by anyone with any sort of graduate program. I didn't even complete my masters, and I still ended up with close to $150K in debt - and my starting income was a LOT lower than a doctor makes. My current income is lower than the median for a PCP, my spouse doesn't work, and I managed to pay off my debt 10 years early. Of course, I did that by having a small starter home that wasn't on a golf course, and by purchasing used cars instead of new BMWs or Mercedes, but hey - priorities differ I guess.

Of course, I'm also not in a position where I can charge exorbitant hourly rates to ensure that I get huge income... and to obtain my current income I work 40 hrs a week consistently, with periodic bouts of overtime as needed.

My point is that there's this persistent myth that doctors just *have to* charge really high rates for their services, because of the *crushing debt* they are *forced* to incur to become a doctor... and it's just not true. Yes, they have debt, but it's not much higher than any other graduate degree, and their starting salaries are higher than almost anyone else coming out with a freshly minted masters is going to get.