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Split UBI - Split From Breakdown In Civil Order

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Some people climb out of poverty while some do not. But using that observation to conclude that most poor people remain poor because of their choices is illogical.
Many, maybe most, poor people DO remain poor because of their choices. They chose the wrong lottery numbers for one thing. But mainly, they have never learned how to make good financial choices because they have never had finances to make good choices about. Any “good” choice they make is largely lucky (e.g. good lottery numbers) and is going to produce results that will be drowned out, in a sea of bad choices and urgent needs. Breaking that cycle is possible, but usually only with “outside” help.
Yep. Its really the parents' responsibility to teach their kids how to manage money, starting at very young age. You really got no business bringing a kid into this world if you can't/won't to do just that basic thing. On top of that, if I was king of the world I would mandate classes on personal finance in high school....perhaps even earlier than that. It certainly would go a long way to curing many of society's ills. My dad was a high school business teacher, and was good about teaching his kids about money (despite our frequent pouting). It wasn't a 100% success story though. It paid off for me and my brothers, but sadly my older sister chose to reject the message and has been living on the edge of financial ruin for decades, despite being the most well paid of all 4 kids. You can't get through to everyone.
 
As a collateral duty (side gig) in the navy, I was a budget counselor. Occasionally someone living on the edge would get into a financial pickle. This was usually a vehicle repair they couldn't afford. They would go to Navy Relief Society for help. Navy Relief would require them to get budget counseling from me first.
There are people who cannot budget money over the course of two weeks. It is beyond them. They understand they have to pay their bills and buy groceries but setting money aside for groceries again in a week when there is still a week to go til payday is a struggle for them. Saving from each paycheck half of their expected monthly bills is also a struggle. And the big trap is small monthly payments on large amounts of debt. As near as I could figure, it's not a lack of willpower or a matter of being irresponsible. They simply do not understand. And yes, they want to have some fun too. Don't we all?

The military understands this. Unlike society, they take care of their people and their family. No one is labeled. No assumptions are made. There is just education and help.
 
The thing is most people can climb out of being poor
Your repeated statements of your beliefs are entertaining, but not something anyone should take seriously without evidence.
I'm confident that an IIDB member went from homeless, black, and poor to a suburbanite driving a luxury car.
In Florida.
Tom
 
The thing is most people can climb out of being poor
Your repeated statements of your beliefs are entertaining, but not something anyone should take seriously without evidence.
I'm confident that an IIDB member went from homeless, black, and poor to a suburbanite driving a luxury car.
In Florida.
Tom
I'm confident that even every single IIDB member past and present put together wouldn't constitute a significant, nor a representative, fraction of "most people".
 
Back to UBI …

How do opponents account for the economic positives of raising the MW?

I have heard all about the undetectable negatives and the undetectable risk of (undetectable?) harm posed. But why no mention of the undetectable positives?
How many career housebreakers, pickpockets and burglars would end up couch-sitting instead? How much would that save in court and incarceration costs alone? How much would small business and the retail sector benefit from spending by the formerly destitute? How can one evaluate the changes in social attitudes and general demeanor of the citizenry?
Why must all that and much more, be subservient to the undetectable risk of undetectable harm?
 
Back to UBI …

How do opponents account for the economic positives of raising the MW?

I have heard all about the undetectable negatives and the undetectable risk of (undetectable?) harm posed. But why no mention of the undetectable positives?
How many career housebreakers, pickpockets and burglars would end up couch-sitting instead? How much would that save in court and incarceration costs alone? How much would small business and the retail sector benefit from spending by the formerly destitute? How can one evaluate the changes in social attitudes and general demeanor of the citizenry?
Why must all that and much more, be subservient to the undetectable risk of undetectable harm?
This is a pretty great question. If you ask, as Emily did on page 1

And what are you going to do when middle-income people start looking at their ever increasing tax bill and realize that they could stop working and maintain the same standard of living?


Shouldn’t we also ask,

And what are you going to do when shoplifters, thieves, and muggers start looking at their ever increasing prison risk and realize that they could stop theiving and maintain the same standard of living?



I mean - are we just going to not talk about that?
 
Back to UBI …

How do opponents account for the economic positives of raising the MW?

I have heard all about the undetectable negatives and the undetectable risk of (undetectable?) harm posed. But why no mention of the undetectable positives?
How many career housebreakers, pickpockets and burglars would end up couch-sitting instead? How much would that save in court and incarceration costs alone? How much would small business and the retail sector benefit from spending by the formerly destitute? How can one evaluate the changes in social attitudes and general demeanor of the citizenry?
Why must all that and much more, be subservient to the undetectable risk of undetectable harm?
This is a pretty great question. If you ask, as Emily did on page 1

And what are you going to do when middle-income people start looking at their ever increasing tax bill and realize that they could stop working and maintain the same standard of living?


Shouldn’t we also ask,

And what are you going to do when shoplifters, thieves, and muggers start looking at their ever increasing prison risk and realize that they could stop theiving and maintain the same standard of living?



I mean - are we just going to not talk about that?
Yes, I see the benefits as possibly worth multiples of the net cost, largely because I dispute that taxes would have to increase over a longer term. There would in fact be some immediate benefits to sales and other tax incomes, but the vastness of potential long term benefits, economic and social, would so dwarf the cost as to make trying UBI seem worthwhile a great investment.
 
I find gthat kind of refusal so inhumane. Do thye even see themselves?
 
The thing is most people can climb out of being poor
Your repeated statements of your beliefs are entertaining, but not something anyone should take seriously without evidence.

As just a single counter-example to Mr. Pechtel's claim, many of the past and present homeless are veterans of one of USA's stupid wars and are enfeebled by severe PTSD. Many others in dire straits are also victims of American society's dysfunction.
You didn't quote it but note that I listed disability as something that could trap you in poverty.
 
It makes me frustrated and angry to see the claim that “most people can climb out of being poor” being made by people who have never had to do so.
IME, people making such claims are projecting that poor people are playing on the same field that they are.
THEY’RE NOT.
I've seen enough immigrants claw their way to the middle class despite starting with nothing and a language barrier besides.
 
It makes me frustrated and angry to see the claim that “most people can climb out of being poor” being made by people who have never had to do so.
IME, people making such claims are projecting that poor people are playing on the same field that they are.
THEY’RE NOT.
I’m not going to get into this debate in either side as I haven’t researched it. But I am amazed to say that I personally know a couple families who live pay check to paycheck, are broke, but have yearly income greater than $200k per year.
Yup. I don't think we have good data on how many but so often the problem is on the spending side.
 
Some people climb out of poverty while some do not. But using that observation to conclude that most poor people remain poor because of their choices is illogical.
Many, maybe most, poor people DO remain poor because of their choices. They chose the wrong lottery numbers for one thing. But mainly, they have never learned how to make good financial choices because they have never had finances to make good choices about. Any “good” choice they make is largely lucky (e.g. good lottery numbers) and is going to produce results that will be drowned out, in a sea of bad choices and urgent needs. Breaking that cycle is possible, but usually only with “outside” help.
Note "have not learned". You don't learn by simply being given money.

When they pick the right lottery numbers it's usually gone in a few years, leaving them even more in debt. I used to know one of those (albeit smaller) lottery winners. Their spending went up so it still exceeded income. They sold off later years of collecting the prize to have money now. It didn't take very many years before it was all gone (despite the payout supposedly lasting decades) and they were hiding from debt collectors again.
 
Yep. Its really the parents' responsibility to teach their kids how to manage money, starting at very young age. You really got no business bringing a kid into this world if you can't/won't to do just that basic thing. On top of that, if I was king of the world I would mandate classes on personal finance in high school....perhaps even earlier than that. It certainly would go a long way to curing many of society's ills. My dad was a high school business teacher, and was good about teaching his kids about money (despite our frequent pouting). It wasn't a 100% success story though. It paid off for me and my brothers, but sadly my older sister chose to reject the message and has been living on the edge of financial ruin for decades, despite being the most well paid of all 4 kids. You can't get through to everyone.
Except the same lack of looking to the future that leads to not handling money well also tends to lead to unintended kids.
 
As a collateral duty (side gig) in the navy, I was a budget counselor. Occasionally someone living on the edge would get into a financial pickle. This was usually a vehicle repair they couldn't afford. They would go to Navy Relief Society for help. Navy Relief would require them to get budget counseling from me first.
There are people who cannot budget money over the course of two weeks. It is beyond them. They understand they have to pay their bills and buy groceries but setting money aside for groceries again in a week when there is still a week to go til payday is a struggle for them. Saving from each paycheck half of their expected monthly bills is also a struggle. And the big trap is small monthly payments on large amounts of debt. As near as I could figure, it's not a lack of willpower or a matter of being irresponsible. They simply do not understand. And yes, they want to have some fun too. Don't we all?

The military understands this. Unlike society, they take care of their people and their family. No one is labeled. No assumptions are made. There is just education and help.
I agree with you about what happens--except it's something that should soon become obvious. Yet they continue get themselves in a pickle. You had the advantage that the military can order them to get help.
 
Back to UBI …

How do opponents account for the economic positives of raising the MW?

I have heard all about the undetectable negatives and the undetectable risk of (undetectable?) harm posed. But why no mention of the undetectable positives?
How many career housebreakers, pickpockets and burglars would end up couch-sitting instead? How much would that save in court and incarceration costs alone? How much would small business and the retail sector benefit from spending by the formerly destitute? How can one evaluate the changes in social attitudes and general demeanor of the citizenry?
Why must all that and much more, be subservient to the undetectable risk of undetectable harm?
Continuing to repeat that doesn't make it so.

At normal exposure levels the harm from most hazardous things in our world is undetectable. We can only see it by looking at high levels or large populations. With minimum wage we have no large population (the sample is minimum wage increases, not the number of minimum wage workers) and we have only one high level data point: American Samoa.

The whole medical and nuclear fields try very, very hard to minimize exposure to radiation levels that have never been shown to be associated with harm. (We have a clear pattern of harm at very high doses--and nothing but noise below that.)
 
Some Iowa humbug. Forty measly dollars a month and they come up with excuses to say no.
Hunger needs both short and long term solutions, governor.
And it was only intended to be over the summer when the kids weren't in school. It's not a long term thing at all. And is it even Covid spending???
 
It makes me frustrated and angry to see the claim that “most people can climb out of being poor” being made by people who have never had to do so.
IME, people making such claims are projecting that poor people are playing on the same field that they are.
THEY’RE NOT.
I've seen enough immigrants claw their way to the middle class despite starting with nothing and a language barrier besides.
Really?

How many is "enough"?

Don't feel the need to be precise; To the nearest thousand would be fine.
 
As a collateral duty (side gig) in the navy, I was a budget counselor. Occasionally someone living on the edge would get into a financial pickle. This was usually a vehicle repair they couldn't afford. They would go to Navy Relief Society for help. Navy Relief would require them to get budget counseling from me first.
There are people who cannot budget money over the course of two weeks. It is beyond them. They understand they have to pay their bills and buy groceries but setting money aside for groceries again in a week when there is still a week to go til payday is a struggle for them. Saving from each paycheck half of their expected monthly bills is also a struggle. And the big trap is small monthly payments on large amounts of debt. As near as I could figure, it's not a lack of willpower or a matter of being irresponsible. They simply do not understand. And yes, they want to have some fun too. Don't we all?

The military understands this. Unlike society, they take care of their people and their family. No one is labeled. No assumptions are made. There is just education and help.
I agree with you about what happens--except it's something that should soon become obvious. Yet they continue get themselves in a pickle. You had the advantage that the military can order them to get help.


Some Iowa humbug. Forty measly dollars a month and they come up with excuses to say no.
Hunger needs both short and long term solutions, governor.
And it was only intended to be over the summer when the kids weren't in school. It's not a long term thing at all. And is it even Covid spending???
hungry-american-child.jpg
 
There is a big difference in perspective between scientists and liberals, on the one hand, and right-wingers or right-centrists on the other hand. When the left finds fault with the right on this topic, the left makes insults like "victim-blaming" or "racism."

To explain my point without focusing on a single prejudice I'll use two examples: Whites in West Virginia, and Blacks almost everywhere.

Many liberals regard some West Viginians as "white trash" -- under-educated, bigoted, embittered and drug-using. Google will show you that West Virginians performs much worse than average by many metrics. One example: W.V. has a higher rate of drug-overdose deaths than any other state. Some in the "white trash" culture make a good life for themselves, but many fester in poverty, seemingly unable to "claw their way to the middle class."

It's easy to criticize some of these "red-necks." Instead of focusing on self-improvement and fighting drug addiction, they blame their troubles on blacks, immigrants and liberals -- despite that all three of these groups are rare in West Virginia. When I write "white trash" or "red-neck" I am NOT trying to insult. Just the opposite: I will show why such stereotypical insults are wrong.

What causes W.V.'s failure? Are West Virginians genetically inferior to others? NO! Modern man evolved very recently so different groups will have very similar genes. The lowered success of these whites has to be blamed on culture. (Start another thread to explore exactly WHY their culture has failed these West Virginians.) If we found 10 or 15 families in West Virginia unable to escape from unemployment and drug addiction, we might blame those families. But when we find 20,000 families victimized in the same way we must ask "What is wrong with their culture?" It just does NOT make sense to blame these victims. If they had some genetic defect that led to their poor results, we'd expect the same failure rate in other states. If some groups of poor immigrants have a much higher success ratio that West Virginians, Do Not Blame the Victims! Try to understand the cultural differences if you seek improvement.

Instead of West Virginia Whites, we could discuss Baltimore Blacks with very similar conclusions. Asking a black teenager in a badly governed city and surrounded by poverty, apathy, violence and drug addiction to succeed as well as the children of an educated two-parent family (immigrant or not) is wrong-headed, and quickly turns into racism and/or victim-blaming.

I won't Google for the numbers but a large number of American soldiers returned from foolish wars with debilitating psychological problems; Republican budget-cuts exacerbate the victims' problems. To write "But millions of Americans (including even some who served in Iraq) have succeeded. Why can't those soldiers overcome their PTSD? I overcame my leg injury" is, again, victim-blaming.

And so on.

I've seen enough immigrants claw their way to the middle class despite starting with nothing and a language barrier besides.

"West Virginia white trash and Baltimore gangsters did NOT claw their way to the middle class." Whatever. But victim blaming is not the solution.
 
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