Uganda Anti Gay Law

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Should the US have dissolved last year(s) when anti-sodomy laws were still on the books in some states?

 

[Politesse]

Should the US have dissolved last year(s) when anti-sodomy laws were still on the books in some states?

A case could certainly be made. But that would be a question for our own democratic insitutions to resolve.

 

[southernhybrid]

Violently homophobic Africans.
Tom

Spurred on by conservative Christians from America (see Jesus Camp).

That is actually true.

In the 90s there was a split in the American Anglican church over liberalization. The conservative side aligned with an anti gay congregation in Uganda.

American poltiicians ans have gne to Afrca to promote and support anti gay laws.

I have absolutely no doubt that this is true.

How is it relevant to the OP?
The Ugandan government has made homosexuality a capital crime. That's about as violent as homophobia gets.
Tom

I think all of us agree that the law passed in Uganda is horrible and violent. Some members simply wanted to remind us that it was White Christians who influenced most of these African nations in dreadful ways.

I think that the concept of Unification of Africa has nothing to do with the OP, so why did you bring that up to Gospel, when it has nothing to do with Uganda's cruel law? As I've already said, it has to do with ending the colonization of the African continent. The reason the continent is so homophobic is due to the influence of white people, primarily conservative Christians who have lied about gay people. Some tribes in Africa embraced homosexuality prior to the influence of these lying white Christian conservatives.

I don't remember the exact quote from the late comedian George Carlin, but he once said something like, "Religion is like a pair of shoes. Find some that fit you, but don't strap your shoes to the feet of the natives". I probably don't have the quote exactly correct, but you get the idea. It was the invaders of Africa who influenced these horrific laws. That doesn't mean the current rulers of Africa aren't responsible, but I think. it's good to understand the historical influences behind these dreadful laws.

If someone were to say they would like to see the US more unified, I certainly wouldn't think they agree with the Republican who made the quote below, that I read in today's AJC. Would you?

Greg Forrister, a Cedartown resident who is in the home inspection industry, said he has always opposed the idea of same-sex marriage.

“It clearly states in the Bible, God creates male and female,” the 58-year-old said. “It’s against God’s law for a man to have sex with another man and a woman to have sex with another woman.”

Gay people and Trans people have been vilified and murdered in our own country. Our current federal laws don't permit hurting gay and trans folks, but if we don't get a grip, we may end up with an autocratic country with hateful leaders taking us backwards to the days where it was okay to physically harm minorities. We are already heading in that direction. Can we at least all agree to unite against that?

 

[Gospel]

Ugandans, like all humans, have their beliefs and can sometimes make choices that others find questionable. While I strongly disagree with their anti-gay laws, this does not detract from my (off-topic) hope that African nations will unite. Such unity can lead to better control over their resources and enhance trade both internally and globally for their ultimate progress.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ugandans, like all humans, have their beliefs and can sometimes make choices that others find questionable. While I strongly disagree with their anti-gay laws, this does not detract from my (off-topic) hope that African nations will unite. Such unity can lead to better control over their resources and enhance trade both internally and globally for their ultimate progress.

Well, Africa is as likely to unite as the great Islamic Republic is.

Honestly, it takes quite a bit for people unite. The UN didn't form until after we started dropping nuclear weapons on civilians and a massive conspiracy occurred that led to the massacre of ten million Jewish and other "undesirables" in Europe.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Should the US have dissolved last year(s) when anti-sodomy laws were still on the books in some states?

A case could certainly be made. But that would be a question for our own democratic insitutions to resolve.

In the US, anti-sodomy laws were on the books since colonial times. My understanding is that conservative radicals made the laws more applicable to gays or enforced more against gays starting in the 70's as a reaction to people coming out of the closet and more open, liberal sexuality. States unifying was a benefit to the common good and slow progress has been made over the centuries. Screaming that Africa cannot have the same kind of union that in our analogous history has afforded us greater relative privilege seems at best a double standard.

 

[Gospel]

Ugandans, like all humans, have their beliefs and can sometimes make choices that others find questionable. While I strongly disagree with their anti-gay laws, this does not detract from my (off-topic) hope that African nations will unite. Such unity can lead to better control over their resources and enhance trade both internally and globally for their ultimate progress.

Well, Africa is as likely to unite as the great Islamic Republic is.

Honestly, it takes quite a bit for people unite. The UN didn't form until after we started dropping nuclear weapons on civilians and a massive conspiracy occurred that led to the massacre of ten million Jewish and other "undesirables" in Europe.

My (off-topic) aspiration for African nations to unite is not to suggest that all must do so. However, such unity could provide a platform to reduce external influences that sometimes result in laws akin to Uganda's anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. To oversimplify, stronger & better trade agreements with nations like the US, France, Spain, Germany, and the UK complete with trade agreements and improved infrastructure with neighboring countries, could deter African countries from partnering with nations like China, India, and Tanzania – all of which have concerning stances on LGBTQ+ rights. By drawing inspiration from African countries that are prospering off their resources, African nations like Uganda might recognize the benefits of adhering to international non-discrimination standards. Regrettably, former colonizers who no longer identify as such still treat African nations as if they were colonies.

 

[Gospel]

Side note: I believe much, if not all, of that has already been initiated or is in progress. However, the motivations behind the involvement of some foreign countries are questionable at best.

 

[Politesse]

Ugandans, like all humans, have their beliefs and can sometimes make choices that others find questionable. While I strongly disagree with their anti-gay laws, this does not detract from my (off-topic) hope that African nations will unite. Such unity can lead to better control over their resources and enhance trade both internally and globally for their ultimate progress.

Well, Africa is as likely to unite as the great Islamic Republic is.

Honestly, it takes quite a bit for people unite. The UN didn't form until after we started dropping nuclear weapons on civilians and a massive conspiracy occurred that led to the massacre of ten million Jewish and other "undesirables" in Europe.

My (off-topic) aspiration for African nations to unite is not to suggest that all must do so. However, such unity could provide a platform to reduce external influences that sometimes result in laws akin to Uganda's anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. To oversimplify, stronger & better trade agreements with nations like the US, France, Spain, Germany, and the UK complete with trade agreements and improved infrastructure with neighboring countries, could deter African countries from partnering with nations like China, India, and Tanzania – all of which have concerning stances on LGBTQ+ rights. By drawing inspiration from African countries that are prospering off their resources, African nations like Uganda might recognize the benefits of adhering to international non-discrimination standards. Regrettably, former colonizers who no longer identify as such still treat African nations as if they were colonies.

Funny which nations always seem to show up when an African nation calls for aid or intervention, eh? We still pretend that "the West" is bringing "civilization" or "modernity" to the other nations of the world, even though the real economic prerogative of the major players has always been to keep colonies or client nations in a permanent state of dependent near-sustainability, and that shines through along nearly every plane of international contact.

 

[TomC]

The phrase 'Unify Africa' is self-explanatory.

No, it isn't.
I still don't know what you mean by it.

The Uganda thing was so obvious to gay folks I barely noticed it. That legislation isn't new or unusual. English speaking faggots with internet access forgot about it awhile ago.

I don't get too excited about ugly legislation in far away places. There's enough dumbassery closer to home to keep me confused. Here in the US it's usually about poor immigrants, pregnant women, and trans people. From Florida to California, from Texas to New York, I don't need to get all judgey about Uganda! I hardly know them. We have our own targets.

But I still don't know what you mean by "Unify Africa".
Tom

 

[Gospel]

But I still don't know what you mean by "Unify Africa".

Unify Africa Oversimplified - An ambitious vision where African nations come together to foster deeper infrastructure, trade ties, and control over their own natural and economic resources. By building collaborative cross-border infrastructural projects and establishing seamless trade routes, perhaps even considering a unified economic policy or currency, the goal of Unify Africa is not only to bolster intra-Africa trade but also to ensure that the continent's vast natural resources are leveraged for the collective benefit of its nations and peoples.

 

[Gospel]

For additional clarity on my "Unify Africa" title, I recommend visiting https://au.int/en. I've also provided a link in my profile to minimize any misunderstandings.

 

[TomC]

But I still don't know what you mean by "Unify Africa".

Unify Africa Oversimplified - An ambitious vision where African nations come together to foster deeper infrastructure, trade ties, and control over their own natural and economic resources. By building collaborative cross-border infrastructural projects and establishing seamless trade routes, perhaps even considering a unified economic policy or currency, the goal of Unify Africa is not only to bolster intra-Africa trade but also to ensure that the continent's vast natural resources are leveraged for the collective benefit of its nations and peoples.

That makes sense.
Your user title put me in mind of a different effort I only vaguely recall from when I was in the NAACP. I believe it was called "Reunite Africa", but it was a long time ago. The thrust was to encourage first world black folks to return to Africa. Presumably bringing first world attitudes towards things like democracy and education, as well as skills and financial assets.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Laws in Uganda targeting the LGBT community are but a glimpse of the broader challenges faced by African nations, many rooted in the colonial legacy. While it's undeniable that African nations are responsible for their internal issues, the impact of colonialism on the continent is similar to the moon's influence over our oceans. To better position for the ebbs and flows of the tide, one must consider the moon's influence.

 

[Elixir]

Laws in Uganda targeting the LGBT community are but a glimpse of the broader challenges faced by African nations, many rooted in the colonial legacy. While it's undeniable that African nations are responsible for their internal issues, the impact of colonialism on the continent is similar to the moon's influence over our oceans. To better position for the ebbs and flows of the tide, one must consider the moon's influence.

Do you see any path toward a more unified Africa that consists of incremental unification of smaller states until you get a really big one that can absorb the others without mayhem?

 

[Politesse]

That would be a recipe for disaster. So many of the problems Africa already faces are the product of arbitrary colonial national boundaries that ignore local realities.

 

[LoAmmo]

Do you see any path toward a more unified Africa that consists of incremental unification of smaller states until you get a really big one that can absorb the others without mayhem?

That’s certainly one way to unify a collection of disparate elements, one downside being that a lot of individual countries’ “identities” would, by definition, be lost…and most people reflexively resist their identities being lost, yet alone taken. It might be a little late in the game to try to create a 1-country Africa after generations of colonialism, war, corruption, and religious fuckery have created deep and lasting schisms among African countries, which count among them predominantly Christian nations, predominantly Muslim nations, Arab nations, and flavors in between. Wealth disparities would also cause, as a minimum, hard feelings in such a consolidation. (Although Germany certainly solved that issue during East/West reunification. Admittedly, that one only had two countries to combine, and with a much deeper shared history than that enjoyed among African countries.)

Not that America is a model for the world (understatement alert) but…I’m struck by the fact that there are, at present, 54 countries in Africa. Which prompts the question: could Africa more readily “unite” in much the same way that the United States has, with 50 (in many ways very) individualized states that retain their unique ways, yet are united under one banner that offers the economy of scale, etc of a larger, superpower-type nation?

 

[LoAmmo]

That would be a recipe for disaster. So many of the problems Africa already faces are the product of arbitrary colonial national boundaries that ignore local realities.

Exactly. Africa is essentially Iraq, writ large.

 

[Gospel]

Do you see any path toward a more unified Africa that consists of incremental unification of smaller states until you get a really big one that can absorb the others without mayhem?

What exists is already mayhem.. The diverse tapestry of languages and cultures in Africa complicate efforts to forge a unified identity or establish cohesive policies. This is further complicated by pronounced economic disparities across the continent: while some nations are flush with resources, others grapple with scarcity. Political volatility, marked by civil unrest and frequent leadership turnovers, often hampers long-term cooperation and planning due to inherent institutional fragility.

Organizations such as the African Union, therefore, find it challenging to enforce mandates, mediate disputes, and ensure compliance with collective standards and practices. Even though the vision of a united Africa resonates with many both within and outside the continent, the actualization of this dream is often stymied by a lack of a shared, overarching objective.

Another considerable challenge lies in the absence of uniform infrastructure—both in terms of physical constructs like roads, and intangible assets like communication networks. Furthermore, regional blocs like ECOWAS in West Africa and SADC in Southern Africa introduce another layer of complexity, each with its unique narrative and challenges.

Lastly, it's impossible to overlook the lingering shadows of external intervention and the remnants of colonial legacies, which continue to influence the continent's geopolitical and socio-economic landscapes.

Given these factors, further tumult seems inevitable. For African nations to realize a level of cohesion and success akin to that of the US, Canada, the UK, and the EU, they must deepen their interdependence and collaboration significantly more than present levels suggest.

 

[TomC]

It occurs to me to point out a subtle bit that I didn't specifically mention.

The Reunite Africa thing might well have played a part in bringing American homophobic tendencies to Uganda. I certainly don't know that, but the Reunite Africa people tended to be churchy, IIRC. Of course, I know nothing about African indigenous cultures, and as a gay white atheist, I wasn't in their "target demographic". I'm sure I didn't get the whole story.
Tom