Undecided Voters - a new view

[Rhea]

Ordinary people in states like Pennsylvania need jobs in the fracking industry.

Correction: Ordinary people n states like Pennsylvania are suing the gas industry for ruining their groundwater and killing their cows, after they trucked in 100-person man-camps with workers from Oklahome who brought meth, rape and sex trafficking to the rural landscape.

 

[Derec]

Correction: Ordinary people n states like Pennsylvania are suing the gas industry for ruining their groundwater and killing their cows,

Evidence that this is a wide-spread phenomenon?

after they trucked in 100-person man-camps with workers from Oklahome who brought meth, rape and sex trafficking to the rural landscape.

Sure, a lot of workers move around. But you are painting a one-sidedly bad picture. These men (and hardly all are from outside the state) and women working these fracking jobs spend money in the local economy. As far as meth and rape, that's what police are for (are you for abolishing police?) As far as so-called "sex trafficking", most of what is called that by you prohibitionists is actually consensual sex work, which should be treated as people spending money in the local economy. Actual sex trafficking should be a police matter. By the way, if a solar roof installer rapes somebody, uses meth or visits a sex worker, is that also an "argument" against solar power? Or are you just engaging in special pleading here?

And you have not addressed the part that fracking is necessary for our energy supply. Most of us drive cars that run on gasoline or diesel. And even if you drive a Tesla or don't have a car at all, the trucks that haul stuff to your store run on diesel. And most of our homes are heated with natural gas. More than a third of our electricity is made by burning natural gas. And gas has allowed us to use less coal, a big net benefit for the environment both in regard to carbon emissions as well as in regard to pollutants such as sulfur, mercury and uranium.


You will not see AOC or other proponents of fast switching (GND says by 2030 which is impossible) address these needs because they do not have a good answer. It will take decades to decarbonize the US economy, and in the interim we need technologies such as fracking.

 

[funinspace]

They don’t have to vote for squad-like members of Congress to represent them then. People seem to forget how the government works.
Do they think Joe Biden is more aligned with the squad than Hilary would have been? I still don’t get it.

Joe probably not, but he will probably not run in 2024 and may not even survive until then. Kamala Harris will probably be a lot more receptive to their ideas. During the primaries she supported some of their ideas like banning fracking, some sort of Medicare for all, and libelously calling justified police shootings "murder".

And the far left Democrats in Congress have become FAR more numerous and prominent than they were in 2016.

Then you have political opinion pieces like this one in NYT.
'The Squad' is the Future of Politics

If the Squad is the future of politics, then we are all fucked.

Well, as we are currently being fucked by far right Republican's & Clownstick, I'd rather risk the chance of a different potential future than continue the current proper fucking...

 

[Trausti]

Correction: Ordinary people n states like Pennsylvania are suing the gas industry for ruining their groundwater and killing their cows,

Evidence that this is a wide-spread phenomenon?

after they trucked in 100-person man-camps with workers from Oklahome who brought meth, rape and sex trafficking to the rural landscape.

Sure, a lot of workers move around. But you are painting a one-sidedly bad picture. These men (and hardly all are from outside the state) and women working these fracking jobs spend money in the local economy. As far as meth and rape, that's what police are for (are you for abolishing police?) As far as so-called "sex trafficking", most of what is called that by you prohibitionists is actually consensual sex work, which should be treated as people spending money in the local economy. Actual sex trafficking should be a police matter. By the way, if a solar roof installer rapes somebody, uses meth or visits a sex worker, is that also an "argument" against solar power? Or are you just engaging in special pleading here?

And you have not addressed the part that fracking is necessary for our energy supply. Most of us drive cars that run on gasoline or diesel. And even if you drive a Tesla or don't have a car at all, the trucks that haul stuff to your store run on diesel. And most of our homes are heated with natural gas. More than a third of our electricity is made by burning natural gas. And gas has allowed us to use less coal, a big net benefit for the environment both in regard to carbon emissions as well as in regard to pollutants such as sulfur, mercury and uranium.
View attachment 29940

You will not see AOC or other proponents of fast switching (GND says by 2030 which is impossible) address these needs because they do not have a good answer. It will take decades to decarbonize the US economy, and in the interim we need technologies such as fracking.

It’s apparently okay for Hunter Biden to make $50k a month working for a Ukrainian gas company but bad for an American to make the same or more working for an American gas company.

 

[Elixir]

It’s apparently okay for Hunter Biden to make $50k a month working for a Ukrainian gas company but bad for an American to make the same or more working for an American gas company.

Strawman. $600k/yr is one thing. $60m/yr is another.

 

[Trausti]

Well, right. $60k+ a year for the American worker.

 

[Shadowy Man]

The whole squad thing was in context of the claim that Hilary voters would be scared of voting for Biden. I still find that hard to believe. Anyone have links to interviews of people actually expressing that opinion? Or is it merely speculation by the right?

 

[Elixir]

Well, right. $60k+ a year for the American worker.

Zackly. And millions for Presidential offspring.

 

[Toni]

Far-left Democrat n.

A politician in the USA whose positions are at the centre-right of the global political spectrum.

Characterised by such extreme policies as provision of similar levels of healthcare access to ordinary citizens as those found everywhere else in the OECD; and supporting smaller tax cuts (particularly for the hyper-wealthy) than those supported by their mainstream colleagues.

A source of abject terror amongst rural Americans who would be the greatest beneficiaries of their policies, were they ever enacted. This terror apparently stemming from the belief that there's a genuine risk that these poor rural individuals might be billionaires at that future date, and thereby miss out on these slightly lower marginal tax rates.

You don't really know or understand rural Americans.

 

[Derec]

The whole squad thing was in context of the claim that Hilary voters would be scared of voting for Biden. I still find that hard to believe. Anyone have links to interviews of people actually expressing that opinion? Or is it merely speculation by the right?

I am not on "the right", but yes, it is speculation on my part.
The leftward lurch of the Democratic Party since 2016 is the single most significant thing that has happened. It is not exactly reflected in the nominee, but it certainly is reflected in the makeup of the Democratic Congressional delegation as well as the intensity of activism.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

They don’t have to vote for squad-like members of Congress to represent them then. People seem to forget how the government works.
Do they think Joe Biden is more aligned with the squad than Hilary would have been? I still don’t get it.

Joe probably not, but he will probably not run in 2024 and may not even survive until then. Kamala Harris will probably be a lot more receptive to their ideas. During the primaries she supported some of their ideas like banning fracking, some sort of Medicare for all, and libelously calling justified police shootings "murder".

And the far left Democrats in Congress have become FAR more numerous and prominent than they were in 2016.

Then you have political opinion pieces like this one in NYT.
'The Squad' is the Future of Politics

If the Squad is the future of politics, then we are all fucked.

The Squad. I'm so fucking sick and tired of hearing about "The Squad". They aren't a squad, they don't even represent 1/100th of the House of Representatives! The bed wetting over "the squad" is just Chicken Little shit.

Never in the history of our nation did freshman House seats make some people mess their pants so much. Their influence is almost non-existent. Any radical ideas they might have will not find consensus when the Democrats have members all over the spectrum, especially more conservative down south and in rural areas and suburbs.

 

[Politesse]

They don’t have to vote for squad-like members of Congress to represent them then. People seem to forget how the government works.
Do they think Joe Biden is more aligned with the squad than Hilary would have been? I still don’t get it.

Joe probably not, but he will probably not run in 2024 and may not even survive until then. Kamala Harris will probably be a lot more receptive to their ideas. During the primaries she supported some of their ideas like banning fracking, some sort of Medicare for all, and libelously calling justified police shootings "murder".

And the far left Democrats in Congress have become FAR more numerous and prominent than they were in 2016.

Then you have political opinion pieces like this one in NYT.
'The Squad' is the Future of Politics

If the Squad is the future of politics, then we are all fucked.

The Squad. I'm so fucking sick and tired of hearing about "The Squad". They aren't a squad, they don't even represent 1/100th of the House of Representatives! The bed wetting over "the squad" is just Chicken Little shit.

Never in the history of our nation did freshman House seats make some people mess their pants so much. Their influence is almost non-existent. Any radical ideas they might have will not find consensus when the Democrats have members all over the spectrum, especially more conservative down south and in rural areas and suburbs.

It's important to lay these things down clearly though, democracy has a way of spreading if it is allowed to sprout. Was the international community wrong to embargo Haiti when her slaves rebelled? Sure, it's a little island, but if they hadn't been severely punished, what if Jamaica had followed suit? Then Georgia? Then Brazil? Slaves might have been freeing themselves all over the place within decades. When you're a fascist you have to think about the long-term implications of permitting freedom of speech, not just the immediate consequences.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Far-left Democrat n.

A politician in the USA whose positions are at the centre-right of the global political spectrum.

Characterised by such extreme policies as provision of similar levels of healthcare access to ordinary citizens as those found everywhere else in the OECD; and supporting smaller tax cuts (particularly for the hyper-wealthy) than those supported by their mainstream colleagues.

A source of abject terror amongst rural Americans who would be the greatest beneficiaries of their policies, were they ever enacted. This terror apparently stemming from the belief that there's a genuine risk that these poor rural individuals might be billionaires at that future date, and thereby miss out on these slightly lower marginal tax rates.

You don't really know or understand rural Americans.

I'd say this is pretty accurate, actually. What do you think it misses?

 

[laughing dog]

Far-left Democrat n.

A politician in the USA whose positions are at the centre-right of the global political spectrum.

Characterised by such extreme policies as provision of similar levels of healthcare access to ordinary citizens as those found everywhere else in the OECD; and supporting smaller tax cuts (particularly for the hyper-wealthy) than those supported by their mainstream colleagues.

A source of abject terror amongst rural Americans who would be the greatest beneficiaries of their policies, were they ever enacted. This terror apparently stemming from the belief that there's a genuine risk that these poor rural individuals might be billionaires at that future date, and thereby miss out on these slightly lower marginal tax rates.

You don't really know or understand rural Americans.

I'd say this is pretty accurate, actually. What do you think it misses?

IMO, the source of "abject terror amongst rural Americans" is not economics, but cultural: they fear losing their way of life. I live in a medium-sized town for Mn (about 30,000) in a rural area. My congressional district spans the width of southern Minnesota. I see it all the time. The rural America they grew up in and know is disappearing. Their towns are slowly dying - their children tend to move away to more culturally enriched areas (maybe towns where there movie theaters or where there is more than zero or one ethnic restaurants or one music venue).

 

[Derec]

IMO, the source of "abject terror amongst rural Americans" is not economics, but cultural: they fear losing their way of life.

The "way of life" fear is not about movie theaters or "ethnic" restaurants but about things like Islamism. That is a legitimate fear, especially in Minnesota given the huge numbers of Somali migrants, many of them Islamist, who were settled there under the guise of being "refugees".

 

[Derec]

The Squad. I'm so fucking sick and tired of hearing about "The Squad".

Me too, believe me. I wish they would just disappear.

They aren't a squad, they don't even represent 1/100th of the House of Representatives!

That's what they call themselves. And yes, those particular 4 people are less than 1% of the House. But they will almost certainly have more far leftists join Congress come January 3rd. People like Jamaal Bowman or Cori Bush, whose only qualification seems to be that she supported violent riots in Ferguson.

The bed wetting over "the squad" is just Chicken Little shit.

No, it is the mirror image of what happened to Republicans a decade ago, when mainstream Republicans started being picked off by "Tea Party" radicals to the detriment of the country and ultimately of the Republican Party too.

Never in the history of our nation did freshman House seats make some people mess their pants so much. Their influence is almost non-existent. Any radical ideas they might have will not find consensus when the Democrats have members all over the spectrum, especially more conservative down south and in rural areas and suburbs.

They will have a hard time passing their agenda directly, but their influence extends beyond mere legislative one. The Bernie/AOC wing of the Democratic Party is wielding a lot of influence in the Biden task forces for example.

 

[fromderinside]

IMO, the source of "abject terror amongst rural Americans" is not economics, but cultural: they fear losing their way of life.

The "way of life" fear is not about movie theaters or "ethnic" restaurants but about things like Islamism. That is a legitimate fear, especially in Minnesota given the huge numbers of Somali migrants, many of them Islamist, who were settled there under the guise of being "refugees".

FYI:

From? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histo...the Minnesota,Somalia and of Somalia descent.

In early 2016, the Minnesota Demographers Office gave an estimate that there are between 40,200 and 52,400 Somalis in Minnesota, although some from the Somali community put the number as high as 80,000.^[13] These estimates include people born in Somalia and of Somalia descent. Somalis in Minnesota reside throughout the Twin Cities metropolitan area and the surrounding towns. Many Somalis inhabit Minneapolis' Cedar-Riverside neighborhood, particularly newly arrived immigrants. Somali professionals often move to the suburbs to raise their children in a more secure environment away from the inner city.

Care to put a number on 'many'? More than 10, 100, 1000? Population of Minneapolis metro area is 3,640,000; Population of Minnesota is 5,640,000. Rural areas need not worry. Care to put a number on 'many'? More than 10, 100, 1000?
No all so one in forty is gone, not most so one in 400 and 4000 not likely. So we're down to one in 40k, 400k in Minneapolis metro which also seems insignificant rather than 'many'. Hell your president thinks 230 k dead is doing a good job.

 

[laughing dog]

IMO, the source of "abject terror amongst rural Americans" is not economics, but cultural: they fear losing their way of life.

The "way of life" fear is not about movie theaters or "ethnic" restaurants but about things like Islamism.

You have no clue what the people in my area think or feel.

That is a legitimate fear, especially in Minnesota given the huge numbers of Somali migrants, many of them Islamist, who were settled there under the guise of being "refugees".

Please stop projecting your fears. Somali immigrants are clustered in the 3 areas: the Twin Cities, St. Cloud, and Rochester. The Twin Cities is not rural. St. Cloud is a large city for Mn, and it has been a hotbed of anti-semitic and racist fucks for decades. The NY times ran an article on this recently (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/20/us/politics/minnesota-refugees-trump.html). Rochester is home of the Mayo Clinic. I live near Rochester and have many friends there and no one there appears to be worried about Islamists.

 

[Elixir]

I'd say this is pretty accurate, actually. What do you think it misses?

IMO, the source of "abject terror amongst rural Americans" is not economics, but cultural: they fear losing their way of life. I live in a medium-sized town for Mn (about 30,000) in a rural area. My congressional district spans the width of southern Minnesota. I see it all the time. The rural America they grew up in and know is disappearing. Their towns are slowly dying - their children tend to move away to more culturally enriched areas (maybe towns where there movie theaters or where there is more than zero or one ethnic restaurants or one music venue).

I agree. The dynamic you describe is probably more prevalent than what has happened here (CO town of~7000) over the last 24 years that I've been here.
It was an historically blue collar ranching and mining community, which tolerated a small but growing artists' enclave.
Mining has disappeared, the railways are shut down and there are at least a dozen art galleries serving to stock the second homes of Texans and Californians with regional pieces (some of it is really good IMHO), and supported by what was (before COVID) a ballooning service/tourism industry.
The remaining ranchers (those who haven't fallen prey to avaricious developers) feel like they're under assault - and with good reason. The fact that they are being squeezed by a larger reality is easily swept away from their awareness by politicians who, in a most facile manner, identify "the enemy" as the lib'ruls and their lib'rul agenda. Most are not tuned in to politics whatsoever, and the simplified view of their plight offered by right wing extremists holds considerable appeal. Makes it easy, compared to trying to understand a complicated and nuanced views of the cultural dynamics at work, put forth by the lib'ruls. That vision places their well being as a piece within a broader cultural framework of success.
They simply don't want to hear it. So they don't even try. Just sign on for "lower taxes" even if their net take-home is reduced over the long term.
Their needs are immediate, and will not be met by an over-arching Democrat "tax and spend" plan, no matter what pot of gold might be promised at the end of the rainbow..

 

[fromderinside]

The Bernie/AOC wing of the Democratic Party is wielding a lot of influence in the Biden task forces for example.

Wow. Declarations by Biden rejecting both Green and Medicare for all not having it in his published plans, leads you to believe he's going to accept them?

You've slurped up that FAUX Lemonade. You're delusional.