US student loans grotesquely high

[Derec]

Your antipathy toward English classes is odd, but does not come as a surprise.

I do not have any antipathy toward English classes.
Now you are just making shit up.

 

[Derec]

I feel like the crux of your response is around your categorization of it being "Arbitrary". Nothing about what I said is "Arbritrary" in any way...

You want legality relationships between adults to be based on the whims of a jury, and not clear rules.
That would not only be an outrageous intrusion by the criminal justice system into the personal relationships between adults, it is arbitrary by definition.

A Jury considers multiple things about the "partnership" (individual age, age difference, maturity, context), and only one thing about a speeding ticket... your speed.
My thing was not arbitrary at all.

And you can never know how a jury may decide, because there are no clear guidelines and thus it is based on what the jurors believe. As opposed to speed limits, which are posted on signs.

 

[laughing dog]

I feel like the crux of your response is around your categorization of it being "Arbitrary". Nothing about what I said is "Arbritrary" in any way...

You want legality relationships between adults to be based on the whims of a jury, and not clear rules.

Statutory rape is a clear rule about the legality of relationships and you are against such laws.

 

[Gun Nut]

I feel like the crux of your response is around your categorization of it being "Arbitrary". Nothing about what I said is "Arbritrary" in any way...

You want legality relationships between adults to be based on the whims of a jury, and not clear rules.
That would not only be an outrageous intrusion by the criminal justice system into the personal relationships between adults, it is arbitrary by definition.

A Jury considers multiple things about the "partnership" (individual age, age difference, maturity, context), and only one thing about a speeding ticket... your speed.
My thing was not arbitrary at all.

And you can never know how a jury may decide, because there are no clear guidelines and thus it is based on what the jurors believe. As opposed to speed limits, which are posted on signs.

This is how our legal system works across all forms of cases... not specific to this type of thing.

 

[Toni]

I suspect from experience and observation (which is anecdotal and skewed) but engineering students tend to be much more narrowly focused in the general outlook than humanities students.

I agree that this view is anecdotal and skewed.

It is a stereotype, yes. Stereotypes exist for a reason: they are broadly true about some categories. Men are taller than women is generally true and it is a stereotype to make that broad claim apply across all men and all women. That does not mean that all men are taller than all women or that men who are not taller than all women or most women or even an especially tall woman is not a man.

Generally speaking, engineering attracts a certain kind of person, intellectually, temperamentally, personality wise. Most engineering programs are fairly rigid in their requirements, and may reinforce certain characteristics as it directs talents and abilities. The engineering programs I am familiar with allow little room to study other areas. Unfortunately, this is increasingly true of many other majors, I think, not in service of the best interests of the students or society.

This is probably something you would think obvious of someone who pursues studies in art or music or language studies or a dozen other courses of study and career paths.

But that does not mean that an engineer cannot also be a poet or that a poet cannot design a system or take apart an engine or know and understand astronomy or genetics.

 

[lpetrich]

Biden's student loan plan explicitly and illegally helps Black borrowers, group says - The Washington Post

A group in Wisconsin claims President Biden’s plan to cancel up to $20,000 in student loan debt violates federal law by intentionally seeking to narrow the racial wealth gap and help Black borrowers.

...
In promoting the debt forgiveness plan, the White House has said it could help narrow the racial wealth gap and advance racial equity. But the lawsuit argues that those statements constitute an “improper racial motive” and violate the constitution’s guarantee of equal protection of the laws.

“The White House has indicated that one reason to do this is that they believe it would disproportionately benefit certain racial groups,” said Rick Esenberg, president and general counsel of the Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty. “The racial motivation supports these taxpayers standing to challenge [the policy] and informs yet another constitutional difficulty with the program.”

 

[Jarhyn]

Biden's student loan plan explicitly and illegally helps Black borrowers, group says - The Washington Post

A group in Wisconsin claims President Biden’s plan to cancel up to $20,000 in student loan debt violates federal law by intentionally seeking to narrow the racial wealth gap and help Black borrowers.

...
In promoting the debt forgiveness plan, the White House has said it could help narrow the racial wealth gap and advance racial equity. But the lawsuit argues that those statements constitute an “improper racial motive” and violate the constitution’s guarantee of equal protection of the laws.

“The White House has indicated that one reason to do this is that they believe it would disproportionately benefit certain racial groups,” said Rick Esenberg, president and general counsel of the Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty. “The racial motivation supports these taxpayers standing to challenge [the policy] and informs yet another constitutional difficulty with the program.”

"Yeah sure, it was unfair for us to legally discriminate to create an imbalance between the resources of white people and black people, but now that you made it illegal you also made it illegal to fix what we did so nyah~"

The proper response is "fuck you, we're fixing the mess you made no matter how much you squeak that it isn't 'fair' to do so. Nothing about the situation today is 'fair'."

 

[James Brown]

One could say the same thing about the Emancipation Proclamation.

 

[Jarhyn]

One could say the same thing about the Emancipation Proclamation.

Yes, one could say that the emancipation proclamation did exactly what I described: "fuck you, we're fixing the mess you made (with your slavery) no matter how you (as southern slavers) squawk."

 

[lpetrich]

Here it is: Debt Relief | Application | Federal Student Aid

What Is Federal Student Loan Debt Relief?
It’s a program that provides eligible borrowers with full or partial discharge of loans up to $20,000 to Federal Pell Grant recipients and up to $10,000 to non-Pell Grant recipients.

Who Qualifies?

• Individuals who made less than $125,000 in 2021 or 2020
• Families that made less than $250,000 in 2021 or 2020

If you filed federal taxes, your income requirements are based on your adjusted gross income (AGI), which tends to be lower than your total income. Your AGI can be found on line 11 of the IRS Form 1040.

How It Works
Apply today (but no later than Dec. 31, 2023). We’ll determine your eligibility and will contact you if we need more information. Your loan servicer will notify you when your relief has been processed.

Pretty much what was announced earlier about this initiative.

Wisconsin lawsuit targeting Biden's student debt relief plan tossed

A federal district judge on Thursday tossed a conservative legal group's lawsuit challenging President Joe Biden's student loan forgiveness plan.

...
Judge William C. Griesbach, who was appointed to the bench by President George W. Bush, ruled Thursday that the taxpayers association doesn't have “standing” before the court, or the grounds to sue.

"The Supreme Court has repeatedly held, however, that the payment of taxes is generally not enough to establish standing to challenge an action taken by the Federal Government," he wrote in his decision.

WILL plans to appeal this decision.

 

[lpetrich]

Supreme Court urged to halt Biden’s student loan forgiveness plan | The Hill

A group of Wisconsin taxpayers on Wednesday asked the Supreme Court to block the Biden administration’s student loan forgiveness program while an appeal plays out in a lower court.

...
A U.S. District judge in Wisconsin dismissed the suit for lack of standing. An intermediate appeals court declined to halt that ruling while a formal appeal plays out, prompting the group’s emergency request to the Supreme Court.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Jarhyn]

Ok, these tax breaks, what is the scale? Is it a 10y scale or a 1y scale?

 

[Elixir]

If Republicans regain power, the tax cuts for the rich will only get more extreme.

Well damn. We better get busy being rich, right?

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[lpetrich]

Judge dismisses student loan forgiveness lawsuit by GOP-led states - The Washington Post

A federal judge on Thursday denied a bid by six Republican-led states to block the Biden administration from moving forward with plans to cancel up to $20,000 in federal student loan debt for more than 40 million people.

...
U.S. District Judge Henry E. Autrey of the Eastern District of Missouri issued a 19-page order concluding that the states lacked the standing to bring the lawsuit to stop one of the administration’s signature economic policies.

“While plaintiffs present important and significant challenges to the debt relief plan, the current Plaintiffs are unable to proceed to the resolution of these challenges,” he wrote.

Biden’s student debt relief notches early victories from GOP-appointed judges - POLITICO - "Justice Amy Coney Barrett declines to block the policy as another federal judge dismisses challenge from GOP-led states."

"Barrett on Thursday swiftly rejected a Wisconsin conservative group’s emergency request to stop the policy without comment or any indication she referred the matter to the full court."

Apparently WILL:

The Brown County Taxpayers Association had argued that it should be able to challenge the Biden administration’s debt relief program on behalf of the taxpayers who it says will be dealt a “staggering” blow by the policy. The lawsuit was brought by the conservative Wisconsin Institute for Law & Liberty.

 

[lpetrich]

Appeals court pauses Biden student debt relief program while it reviews case | CNN Politics

The order from the 8th US Circuit Court of Appeals comes in a case brought by six Republican-led states, asking for a preliminary injunction to halt the policy after a district court dismissed the case earlier this week. The effort is separate from a Wisconsin taxpayers group’s challenge to the program that was recently rejected by the Supreme Court.

The appeals court gave the administration until Monday to respond to the states’ request, and the states will have until Tuesday to reply to that response. The states had asked the appeals court to act before Sunday, the earliest date the Biden administration had said it would grant student loan discharges.

However, the administration is not stopping.
Student debt relief can move 'full speed ahead' despite temporary hold, Education Secretary pledges | CNN Politics

Noting
Secretary Miguel Cardona on Twitter: "Amid some Republicans trying to block our student debt relief program, we are moving full speed ahead, preparing for implementation so we can deliver relief to borrowers who need it most. (vid link)" / Twitter
With a short speech by him.

Cardona says Republicans fighting student debt relief won’t succeed, department is moving ‘full speed ahead’ | The Hill
What to know now that Biden's student debt relief is temporarily blocked : NPR

The admin is encouraging people to continue to apply for debt relief.

 

[Swammerdami]

The "standard" formula is age/2+7

That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.

Y'all are making this too complicated. The formula prescribes a minimum age for partner. Assuming symmetry the formula can be inverted to get a maximum age. Here is the result:
14) 14-14
16) 15-18
18) 16-22
20) 17-26
22) 18-30
24) 19-34
26) 20-38
28) 21-42
30) 22-46
32) 23-50
34) 24-54
36) 25-58
46) 30-78
56) 35+
66) 40+
76) 45+
Thus according to this formula — whose validity is beyond the scope of my remarks — a 30-year-old should partner with someone between ages 22 and 46. A baby boomer like myself needs a partner in her 40's or older.

 

[Jarhyn]

The "standard" formula is age/2+7

That formula was intended to specify the ideal age difference, not the maximum.

Y'all are making this too complicated. The formula prescribes a minimum age for partner. Assuming symmetry the formula can be inverted to get a maximum age. Here is the result:
14) 14-14
16) 15-18
18) 16-22
20) 17-26
22) 18-30
24) 19-34
26) 20-38
28) 21-42
30) 22-46
32) 23-50
34) 24-54
36) 25-58
46) 30-78
56) 35+
66) 40+
76) 45+
Thus according to this formula — whose validity is beyond the scope of my remarks — a 30-year-old should partner with someone between ages 22 and 46. A baby boomer like myself needs a partner in her 40's or older.

I made this point up thread, however I recommend formulaic calculation of "upper age" from "lower partner age", because the goal is to have young people prepared to distrust the intentions of those who are likely to be capable of manipulating them successfully outside all possibility of consent.

Also this is why I propose curves. There's a dunning-kruger effect with respect to competence at avoiding sexual manipulation, where below a certain point you're going to be too dumb to know you're dumb, but eventually you become smart enough to know how dumb you are, smart enough to take off-the-shelf mitigations for playing such games as accepting you're dumb and doing it anyway.

A 30 year old could easily understand how a 64 year old is going to chew them up and spit them out and that the 64 year old great old one knows how to play whatever games they want, and as long as everyone knows what game they are playing (30 year old is a long for the ride), that's fine.

A 20 year old just... Nope. LOL. NOPE! Nope nope nope. Ain't no 64 year old justifying having sex with a 20 year old BABY.

 

[bilby]

The formula prescribes a minimum age for partner

No, it doesn't. It prescribed the ideal age for a man's wife. The central point on a bell curve of undefined width.

It's generally not considered fit for that purpose anymore, but it's not notably more fit for the other purposes to which it has been co-opted, but for which it's author never intended it.

That's true of its common modern use to define the youngest age of woman with whom a man's relationship isn't "creepy"; And it's also true of your attempt to shoehorn it into service as a formula prescribing an age range for sexual partners.

It's nonsense, it was nonsensical for its original purpose, and it's no less nonsensical for any new purposes we might wish to assign to it.