Warren's Native American heritage gaffe

[PyramidHead]

Americans aren't going to start giving a damn about Native Americans just to sink Warren's boat. It's ammunition for trolls that everyone else will just shrug off.

Sadly, you're probably correct.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It was tactless, but relatively harmless. She has apologized for it as well.

If they were to debate, goodness help us all, it could be an opportunity for Warren to zing the heck out of Trump.

Yes, we are both guilty of appropriating false identities. Despite my technical blood connection several generations ago, I am not a Native American. And Donald Trump, despite all of his claims, isn't a successful businessman.

 

[PyramidHead]

It was tactless, but relatively harmless. She has apologized for it as well.

If they were to debate, goodness help us all, it could be an opportunity for Warren to zing the heck out of Trump.

Yes, we are both guilty of appropriating false identities. Despite my technical blood connection several generations ago, I am not a Native American. And Donald Trump, despite all of his claims, isn't a successful businessman.

What many in the Cherokee nation are rightly dissatisfied with about her apology is that (a) it wasn't as public as it should have been, and (b) it didn't acknowledge the damage that such misappropriations do in the long term, especially to indigenous people. This lack of understanding was also evident in her too little, too late response to the violence happening around the Dakota Access pipeline. But Sarpedon is correct; this will not be an issue for her with the average voter, because the existence of indigenous people is not an issue for the average voter

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It was tactless, but relatively harmless. She has apologized for it as well.

If they were to debate, goodness help us all, it could be an opportunity for Warren to zing the heck out of Trump.

Yes, we are both guilty of appropriating false identities. Despite my technical blood connection several generations ago, I am not a Native American. And Donald Trump, despite all of his claims, isn't a successful businessman.

What many in the Cherokee nation are rightly dissatisfied with about her apology is that (a) it wasn't as public as it should have been, and (b) it didn't acknowledge the damage that such misappropriations do in the long term, especially to indigenous people.

What? Her appropriation has harmed the Native American population an itty bitty fraction that drug / alcohol abuse and the still extremely complicated results of the dehumanization of native populations in the US.

This lack of understanding was also evident in her too little, too late response to the violence happening around the Dakota Access pipeline. But Sarpedon is correct; this will not be an issue for her with the average voter, because the existence of indigenous people is not an issue for the average voter

Of course, the GOP tried to make it harder for them to vote in 2016 as well (by requiring home addresses being in a database to be allowed to vote), so there is that too. That also harmed them a lot more than Warren taking an identity for professional (and not personal) purposes.

 

[Toni]

That's not how one tells if someone is Native American. Not even if you are working in Hollywood casting. Not anymore, at least.

View attachment 24205

But how do you tell whether somebody is so-called "native" American? Through family lore?

Tribes establish their own criteria for membership. It does not involve 'looks' or genetics.

As mentioned before, Native Americans have not contributed enough samples to data bases such as Ancestry and 23andMe, etc. in order to establish any genetic markers particular to Native Americans or any particular tribe.

So, I'd go with: if you want tribal membership, it's up to the tribe.

Here's this link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK233104/

A variety of court cases have tested tribal membership requirements. From the disputes, American Indian tribal governments have won the right to determine their own membership: "The courts have consistently recognized that in the absence of express legislation by Congress to the contrary, an Indian tribe has complete authority to determine all questions of its own membership" (Cohen, 1942:133).6

Individuals enrolled in federally recognized tribes also receive a Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood (referred to as a CDIB) from the Bureau of Indian Affairs, specifying a certain degree of Indian blood, i.e., a blood quantum. The Bureau of Indian Affairs uses a blood quantum definition—generally one-fourth Native American blood—and/or tribal membership to recognize an individual as Native American. However, each tribe has its own set of requirements—generally including a blood quantum—for membership (enrollment) of individuals. Typically, blood quantum is established by tracing ancestry back through time to a relative or relatives on earlier tribal rolls or censuses that recorded the relative's proportion of Native American blood. In such historical instances, the proportion was more often than not simply self-indicated.

If it's someone who is not applying for tribal membership and is instead relying on family legend (at least partially backed up by the newspaper clip in this thread in the case of Warren) you let them have their family history.

In any case, when Warren was at Harvard, genetic testing to establish heritage (not paternity but heritage) was not available. Today, it is not necessarily the last word or even a good indicator for some groups.

 

[PyramidHead]

What? Her appropriation has harmed the Native American population an itty bitty fraction that drug / alcohol abuse and the still extremely complicated results of the dehumanization of native populations in the US.

This lack of understanding was also evident in her too little, too late response to the violence happening around the Dakota Access pipeline. But Sarpedon is correct; this will not be an issue for her with the average voter, because the existence of indigenous people is not an issue for the average voter

Of course, the GOP tried to make it harder for them to vote in 2016 as well (by requiring home addresses being in a database to be allowed to vote), so there is that too. That also harmed them a lot more than Warren taking an identity for professional (and not personal) purposes.

A whole lot of whatabout in this reply. Nothing really to disagree with, but it doesn't change anything about Warren's behavior.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What? Her appropriation has harmed the Native American population an itty bitty fraction that drug / alcohol abuse and the still extremely complicated results of the dehumanization of native populations in the US.

This lack of understanding was also evident in her too little, too late response to the violence happening around the Dakota Access pipeline. But Sarpedon is correct; this will not be an issue for her with the average voter, because the existence of indigenous people is not an issue for the average voter

Of course, the GOP tried to make it harder for them to vote in 2016 as well (by requiring home addresses being in a database to be allowed to vote), so there is that too. That also harmed them a lot more than Warren taking an identity for professional (and not personal) purposes.

A whole lot of whatabout in this reply.

No, there isn't any whatabout. You claimed what she did harmed the Native Americans. I sad, 'no, it wasn't even a scratch, here are examples of actual harm.'

Nothing really to disagree with, but it doesn't change anything about Warren's behavior.

There is little else she can do to address this. I think it was wrong. I'm not a Warren fan. I think what she did was embarrassing. I disagree regarding "the damage that such misappropriations do in the long term."

 

[PyramidHead]

A whole lot of whatabout in this reply.

No, there isn't any whatabout. You claimed what she did harmed the Native Americans. I sad, 'no, it wasn't even a scratch, here are examples of actual harm.'

The fact that most people now think it's appropriate to establish Native American tribal membership by a DNA test is evidence of actual harm, according to the Cherokee themselves. Indigenous people do not like to be thought of as only a race, because it reduces their heritage to a genetic one rather than a cultural one.

"Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong," Chuck Hoskin Jr., the tribe's secretary of state, said in a statement on Monday. "It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven."

"Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage," Hoskin added.

[...]

The efforts to promote the results of the DNA test as legitimate, while at the same time declining to assert a specific heritage, struck one expert as self-serving. In a statement, professor Kim Tallbear, a citizen of the Sisseton-Wahpeton Oyate, agreed with the Cherokee Nation's assessment -- Warren is undermining tribal sovereignty, albeit in an "unintended" way.

"She continues to defend her ancestry claims as important despite her historical record of refusing to meet with Cherokee Nation community members who challenge her claims," Tallbear said in a statement she issued after receiving numerous media inquiries for her views on the matter.

This is becoming a derail, but in the end I still agree with the assessment that this issue will not harm Warren if she is the nominee, even though I still believe it should.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The fact that most people now think it's appropriate to establish Native American tribal membership by a DNA test is evidence of actual harm, according to the Cherokee themselves. Indigenous people do not like to be thought of as only a race, because it reduces their heritage to a genetic one rather than a cultural one.

And this is the reason why Warren is in trouble. She sought to use a long ago genetic link to establish a cultural link. Had Warren actually embraced some level of Cherokee heritage, it likely would have been fine. But because she just used it when it was professionally convenient, she got into trouble.

 

[Toni]

What? Her appropriation has harmed the Native American population an itty bitty fraction that drug / alcohol abuse and the still extremely complicated results of the dehumanization of native populations in the US.

This lack of understanding was also evident in her too little, too late response to the violence happening around the Dakota Access pipeline. But Sarpedon is correct; this will not be an issue for her with the average voter, because the existence of indigenous people is not an issue for the average voter

Of course, the GOP tried to make it harder for them to vote in 2016 as well (by requiring home addresses being in a database to be allowed to vote), so there is that too. That also harmed them a lot more than Warren taking an identity for professional (and not personal) purposes.

A whole lot of whatabout in this reply. Nothing really to disagree with, but it doesn't change anything about Warren's behavior.

I know: How terrible that she believed her parents! That's much worse than anyone being able to disprove either that her parents told her that she was part NA or that neither of her parents had any NA heritage!

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!

What a bitch.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A whole lot of whatabout in this reply. Nothing really to disagree with, but it doesn't change anything about Warren's behavior.

I know: How terrible that she believed her parents! That's much worse than anyone being able to disprove either that her parents told her that she was part NA or that neither of her parents had any NA heritage!

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!

What a bitch.

The problem is that she seemed to not actually embrace said linked heritage, just used it as a bullet point.

 

[PyramidHead]

A whole lot of whatabout in this reply. Nothing really to disagree with, but it doesn't change anything about Warren's behavior.

I know: How terrible that she believed her parents! That's much worse than anyone being able to disprove either that her parents told her that she was part NA or that neither of her parents had any NA heritage!

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!

What a bitch.

As Jimmy said, the issue is not just that she believed her parents uncritically for most of her life (when talking to literally any indigenous person would have informed her that there is no such thing as "part Cherokee"), but that she represented herself as an example of someone who overcame real challenges because of her ethnicity. The notion of Warren as a successful woman of color who broke institutional barriers displaces the struggles of actual women of color.

 

[Derec]

The fact that most people now think it's appropriate to establish Native American tribal membership by a DNA test is evidence of actual harm, according to the Cherokee themselves. Indigenous people do not like to be thought of as only a race, because it reduces their heritage to a genetic one rather than a cultural one.

If being classified as American Indian did not give people special benefits it would not be an issue. Since it does (and I think it shouldn't), the issue of who is Indian or not becomes fraught.

But I think there is another reason many Indians reject genetic testing.

'There is no DNA test to prove you're Native American'

I think there is a suspicion by many Native Americans that scientists, who are largely not Native American, want to turn our history into another immigrant narrative that says “We’re all really immigrants, we’re all equal, you have no special claims to anything.”

There is this trope that everybody came to America from someplace else, except Indians. That of course is rank nonsense, as Indians had to come here too.

There are also traditional people who don’t want to have a molecular narrative of history shoved down their throats. They would prefer to privilege the tribal creation stories that root us in the landscapes we come from.

Science should trump creation myths. You can't claim to be a part of the "reality based community" and champion "privileging tribal creation stories".

"Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage," Hoskin added.

Ah yes, "tribal interest". Which is getting special benefits and legal status purely based on one's ethnicity.

Warren is undermining tribal sovereignty, albeit in an "unintended" way.

The whole notion of "tribal sovereignty" is bullshit anyway. It made some sense when Indian tribes were truly entities separate from US, but any pretense of "tribal sovereignty" should have ended with the Indian Citizenship Act. You are either citizen of a sovereign tribe or a US citizen. You should not get to double dip based on what best serves you at any given time.

This is becoming a derail, but in the end I still agree with the assessment that this issue will not harm Warren if she is the nominee, even though I still believe it should.

What concerns me most is that she will try to "atone" for her claims by pushing policies that give even more special treatment to Indians than they already receive.

 

[Bronzeage]

....What concerns me most is that she will try to "atone" for her claims by pushing policies that give even more special treatment to Indians than they already receive.

This is a valid concern. Anything Warren gives to the Indians is coming straight out of your share.

 

[Toni]

Dude

View attachment 24154

She lied about that. She also used her story about being native American (she isn't) to gain professionally. It's tame stuff by comparison to Trump or even Biden, but absent the atmosphere where Trump is creating new scandals for himself daily, Warren's thing would / will be a bigger deal. People have lost politically for much much less.

What is the 'that' that she supposedly lied about?

How, exactly do you think she used her story about having NA heritage (which as far as you know, is exactly as she was told) to gain professionally.


Frankly I think the bigger story is the supposedly long term (he's talking MONTHS) affair that she supposedly had or is having with a 24 yr old ex Marine body builder that Jacob Wohl is trying to peddle. She's getting all kinds of grief (and by grief, I mean: accolades) on twitter for that.

 

[Toni]

If being classified as American Indian did not give people special benefits it would not be an issue. Since it does (and I think it shouldn't), the issue of who is Indian or not becomes fraught.

You would have a point if she attempted to claim tribal membership which does confer benefits. She did not. Your point fails.

But I think there is another reason many Indians reject genetic testing.

The fact is that few Native Americans have contributed samples for any data base, meaning that using such means to determine genetic basis for whether someone is NA or to what tribe is even more meaningless than it is to determine if you are French or Italian or Austrian and so on.

There is this trope that everybody came to America from someplace else, except Indians. That of course is rank nonsense, as Indians had to come here too.

Trope? Native Americans are the first people known to have settled in the Americas and they settled here many centuries prior to any European peoples coming to the Americas.

We all did come from somewhere originally and that place appears to have been Africa.

There are also traditional people who don’t want to have a molecular narrative of history shoved down their throats. They would prefer to privilege the tribal creation stories that root us in the landscapes we come from.

Science should trump creation myths. You can't claim to be a part of the "reality based community" and champion "privileging tribal creation stories".

Science cannot determine which people feel they belong together. And frankly, there is not enough data to determine anybody's 'origins' much less those of people who are Native American.

"Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage," Hoskin added.

Ah yes, "tribal interest". Which is getting special benefits and legal status purely based on one's ethnicity.

Plus the 'heritage' of having one's land, one's language, one's children, one's culture and cultural identity stolen from them, quite literally. In addition to the near complete genocide. No need to allow Native Americans any 'special privileges' included in the treaties they signed conferring those special privileges. Trump has proven that we are not a nation of laws or honor.

Warren is undermining tribal sovereignty, albeit in an "unintended" way.

The whole notion of "tribal sovereignty" is bullshit anyway. It made some sense when Indian tribes were truly entities separate from US, but any pretense of "tribal sovereignty" should have ended with the Indian Citizenship Act. You are either citizen of a sovereign tribe or a US citizen. You should not get to double dip based on what best serves you at any given time.

But of course you do. Lots of Americans, including some of my family, have dual citizenship. It's pretty common when an American marries someone from another country and they have children. Often the children can claim dual citizenship and it is well recognized in the US.

This is becoming a derail, but in the end I still agree with the assessment that this issue will not harm Warren if she is the nominee, even though I still believe it should.

What concerns me most is that she will try to "atone" for her claims by pushing policies that give even more special treatment to Indians than they already receive.

I do hope that she does her best to ensure that individual tribes and Native Americans separately and collectively are treated fairly and that all of the US governmental responsibilities are lived up to and that we quit infringing on their lands and rights as is so common where I live.

 

[Derec]

This is a valid concern. Anything Warren gives to the Indians is coming straight out of your share.

It's not necessarily just about slices of the pie, but that her policy of atonement may hurt the size of the pie too. For example, if Warren administration automatically rejects major projects like pipelines, mines or telescopes that a group of so-called "natives" objects to, it will harm the US economy.

 

[Derec]

Frankly I think the bigger story is the supposedly long term (he's talking MONTHS) affair that she supposedly had or is having with a 24 yr old

Elizabeth Warren is fucking a 24 year old?

ex Marine

Apparently no such thing.

She's getting all kinds of grief (and by grief, I mean: accolades) on twitter for that.

If Sanders or Biden were accused of fucking a 24 year old woman, they'd get eviscerated by #metoo feminists like you and their campaigns would be over quickly. But it's ok and even laudable when a woman does it?

 

[Rhea]

A whole lot of whatabout in this reply. Nothing really to disagree with, but it doesn't change anything about Warren's behavior.

I know: How terrible that she believed her parents! That's much worse than anyone being able to disprove either that her parents told her that she was part NA or that neither of her parents had any NA heritage!

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!

What a bitch.

The problem is that she seemed to not actually embrace said linked heritage, just used it as a bullet point.

Now that is an odd thing to say.

Every single time I eve write anything about my heritage ever, it is just a bullet point as I have never “embraced the heritage” - any of it. I remark about the faint Irish ancestry I have that came by way of Italy. I’ll tell a tale of my first ancestor to America (as Warren did, right?) except mine was a man with a criminal record running from the law who snuck into America. But since that was about 400 years ago, the white folks are okay with it. I’ll add a bullet point about the ones from3 other European countries. And for not a single one of them have I “embraced the heritage” except for one pair of lederhosen that I bought while drinking.


So how many of us in America use our heritage as a bullet point and don’t really embrace it?

In what ways do YOU embrace your heritage?

 

[Derec]

You would have a point if she attempted to claim tribal membership which does confer benefits. She did not. Your point fails.

But she did receive professional benefits because Harvard sought to hire a 'woman of color'.

The fact is that few Native Americans have contributed samples for any data base, meaning that using such means to determine genetic basis for whether someone is NA or to what tribe is even more meaningless than it is to determine if you are French or Italian or Austrian and so on.

Especially since Amerindians are related to ancient Siberians. I doubt tribal populations of Siberia have a great deal of representation in the database either.
And I advanced a possibility. What if Warren had a greatgrandfather who was Russian and whose greatgrandmother was from one of those Siberian tribes. That could possibly account for her genotype even if she has zero Cherokee or Delaware ancestry.

Trope? Native Americans are the first people known to have settled in the Americas and they settled here many centuries prior to any European peoples coming to the Americas.

But they still had to come and settle here. "Everybody is an immigrant except Indians" trope is blatantly false unless you believe the creationist nonsense that the Great Manitu created them de novo on Turtle Island...

We all did come from somewhere originally and that place appears to have been Africa.

So we should all put "African-American" when applying for college.

Science cannot determine which people feel they belong together. And frankly, there is not enough data to determine anybody's 'origins' much less those of people who are Native American.

But science is still more accurate than family lore. People should be able to feel however they want, but I do not think they should be able to use those feelings to get hired or to run for office. Remember, Warren made a big deal of the supposed "forbidden love" between her parents when she ran for Senate.

Plus the 'heritage' of having one's land, one's language, one's children, one's culture and cultural identity stolen from them, quite literally. In addition to the near complete genocide. No need to allow Native Americans any 'special privileges' included in the treaties they signed conferring those special privileges. Trump has proven that we are not a nation of laws or honor.

Peoples have gained and lost territory in wars throughout history. Why should this one conquest be treated differently?
For example, Turks stole Constantinople and eastern Thrace around the same time the European conquest of the Americas happened. Should they give it back?
As to treaties, again that's double dipping. Either Cherokees are a sovereign nation or they are Americans. You should not be able to have it both ways.

But of course you do. Lots of Americans, including some of my family, have dual citizenship. It's pretty common when an American marries someone from another country and they have children. Often the children can claim dual citizenship and it is well recognized in the US.

Completely different thing than "dual citizenship" as Indian reservations are not countries like Italy or Germany would be.
Just because your kid may be dual citizen of country X does not mean they don't have to pay US taxes or that they can disregard US laws. Indians can smoke peyote for example, or collect eagle feathers, even though both are crimes for non-Indians.

I do hope that she does her best to ensure that individual tribes and Native Americans separately and collectively are treated fairly and that all of the US governmental responsibilities are lived up to and that we quit infringing on their lands and rights as is so common where I live.

Every individual should be treated fairly. But that means ending the special treatment of Indians.
They should pay the same taxes everybody else pays and have to follow the same laws everybody else follows.
Furthermore, if they object to a project such as a pipeline, a telescope or a mine, they should be treated no better and also no worse than any other NIMBY.