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Was Jesus a jerk?

DBT said:
The 'wheel of Karma' is Hindu theology. Christianity doesn't have reincarnation or karma, it has 'believe in Jesus as your saviour or suffer the consequences,' which is not karma by any stretch.
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Depends on whose Christianity you're talking about, doesn't it?
 
^It's rather rich that someone who is always quoting quacks like Doherty and Carrier is now lecturing others about what Christianity is all about.
 
No Robots said:
DBT said:
The 'wheel of Karma' is Hindu theology. Christianity doesn't have reincarnation or karma, it has 'believe in Jesus as your saviour or suffer the consequences,' which is not karma by any stretch.
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Depends on whose Christianity you're talking about, doesn't it?
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Well, you could produce verses that support reincarnation and karma instead of salvation through Jesus and a final judgment. Or explain how the two may relate.
 
No Robots said:
^It's rather rich that someone who is always quoting quacks like Doherty and Carrier is now lecturing others about what Christianity is all about.
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Isn't what Christianity is about determined by what is written in the New Testament? Which, admittedly, may not be easy to determine given its ambiguities and contradictions.
 
^Waton lays it out:

Whatever other characteristics religion may have, in essence it is an idea concerning the destiny of mankind. Whether that destiny will realize itself in a kingdom of God in some imaginary heaven to be enjoyed after death, or it is to be realized on this earth to be enjoyed by men while they are living, this idea of the future destiny of mankind was and is the essence of religion. Consciously or unconsciously, all religions postulate original sin, the law retribution, reincarnation and redemption. The original sin is only an intuition and vague perception of the historic fact that man descended from the animal. Man started out as an animal; and, though man made great progress, yet the animal is still the basis of his being. This animal in man must be overcome; man must become rational and morally autonomous. But, while this is the inevitable destiny of mankind, man must cooperate with his destiny. Existence rests on the law of equivalents; for the realization of his destiny man must pay a high equivalent in coins of work, struggle, suffering and death. Salvation and redemption can be purchased only with sacrifice, and it must be a supreme sacrifice, requiring even the sacrifice of God himself. For this reason, God comes down as the Son of himself, assumes the human form, and sacrifices himself that mankind may attain to salvation and redemption. As I showed in the previous lecture, this sacrifice is really no sacrifice at all: it is an ascension. Isaac was required, not to be sacrificed as a burnt-offering, but to ascend to the highest moral and spiritual state. Likewise in the case of Jesus, it was not the sacrifice, the crucifixion of Jesus, but his ascension that brought to mankind salvation and redemption Now, all these ideas are intuitive symbols. The Son of God, as I showed in a previous lecture, is the soul that became the intellect. In other words, the salvation and redemption of man will come when his soul becomes intellect. Then man himself will ascend. But this process must begin with one individual, who constitutes the redeemer; he is Moses, he is Buddha, he is Jesus, and so on. But in due course of time more ani more will attain to the intellect, until a time will come when all will attain to the intellect. But this is not yet all. Underlying this idea, then is the idea of reincarnation. The salvation and redemption will come to future mankind, not as a free gift from all preceding generations of men. This would be contrary to the law of equivalents. Why should countless generations of men suffer that in the future mankind may enjoy the benefits? Hence, the law of reincarnation tells us that the future mankind will be none other than the past mankind. The essence of man is his soul, and the soul is an eternal idea of God, and therefore immortal. Man may assume and cast off an indefinite number of bodies, but the soul remains in existence. To realize her destiny, the soul must purge herself of all original sin. Hence, the destiny of mankind will be realized, not by some future generations that will come into existence, but by the very past generations that worked , struggled and died in the endeavor to realize that destiny. All these ideas are the essence of Judaism, and in the Bible these ideas are expressed most explicitly and definitely: only we need the mathematical key to understand the Bible. Let us, then, see what the Bible tells us about these ideas, using the mathematical key to decipher the language.
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No Robots said:
^Waton lays it out:

Whatever other characteristics religion may have, in essence it is an idea concerning the destiny of mankind. Whether that destiny will realize itself in a kingdom of God in some imaginary heaven to be enjoyed after death, or it is to be realized on this earth to be enjoyed by men while they are living, this idea of the future destiny of mankind was and is the essence of religion. Consciously or unconsciously, all religions postulate original sin, the law retribution, reincarnation and redemption. The original sin is only an intuition and vague perception of the historic fact that man descended from the animal. Man started out as an animal; and, though man made great progress, yet the animal is still the basis of his being. This animal in man must be overcome; man must become rational and morally autonomous. But, while this is the inevitable destiny of mankind, man must cooperate with his destiny. Existence rests on the law of equivalents; for the realization of his destiny man must pay a high equivalent in coins of work, struggle, suffering and death. Salvation and redemption can be purchased only with sacrifice, and it must be a supreme sacrifice, requiring even the sacrifice of God himself. For this reason, God comes down as the Son of himself, assumes the human form, and sacrifices himself that mankind may attain to salvation and redemption. As I showed in the previous lecture, this sacrifice is really no sacrifice at all: it is an ascension. Isaac was required, not to be sacrificed as a burnt-offering, but to ascend to the highest moral and spiritual state. Likewise in the case of Jesus, it was not the sacrifice, the crucifixion of Jesus, but his ascension that brought to mankind salvation and redemption Now, all these ideas are intuitive symbols. The Son of God, as I showed in a previous lecture, is the soul that became the intellect. In other words, the salvation and redemption of man will come when his soul becomes intellect. Then man himself will ascend. But this process must begin with one individual, who constitutes the redeemer; he is Moses, he is Buddha, he is Jesus, and so on. But in due course of time more ani more will attain to the intellect, until a time will come when all will attain to the intellect. But this is not yet all. Underlying this idea, then is the idea of reincarnation. The salvation and redemption will come to future mankind, not as a free gift from all preceding generations of men. This would be contrary to the law of equivalents. Why should countless generations of men suffer that in the future mankind may enjoy the benefits? Hence, the law of reincarnation tells us that the future mankind will be none other than the past mankind. The essence of man is his soul, and the soul is an eternal idea of God, and therefore immortal. Man may assume and cast off an indefinite number of bodies, but the soul remains in existence. To realize her destiny, the soul must purge herself of all original sin. Hence, the destiny of mankind will be realized, not by some future generations that will come into existence, but by the very past generations that worked , struggled and died in the endeavor to realize that destiny. All these ideas are the essence of Judaism, and in the Bible these ideas are expressed most explicitly and definitely: only we need the mathematical key to understand the Bible. Let us, then, see what the Bible tells us about these ideas, using the mathematical key to decipher the language.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signi...xt=other is 15.-,18,often used in gift giving.
 
Thomas II said:
Going back to the cursing of the fig tree...Was Jesus casting out a demon?
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It is midrash relating to his realization that there was no hope of bringing the whole of Jewry to his side, pretty much the same as his other imprecations against those who ignored him.
 
^Ah, good. Here is my extended reply for good measure:

There is no question but that Jesus operated within the thought-realm of the Judaism of his time. This thought-realm included demonology, as your link indicates (Fabulous resource. Thanks). As indicated in the link, it is never certain to what extent a speaker/writer is making use of standard imagery for rhetoric purposes, and to what extent real belief is indicated. For the most part, this is not important. The important thing, as with all mashalim, is to penetrate to the inner significance of the speech/writing.
 
Thomas II said:
No Robots said:
^Waton lays it out:

Whatever other characteristics religion may have, in essence it is an idea concerning the destiny of mankind. Whether that destiny will realize itself in a kingdom of God in some imaginary heaven to be enjoyed after death, or it is to be realized on this earth to be enjoyed by men while they are living, this idea of the future destiny of mankind was and is the essence of religion. Consciously or unconsciously, all religions postulate original sin, the law retribution, reincarnation and redemption. The original sin is only an intuition and vague perception of the historic fact that man descended from the animal. Man started out as an animal; and, though man made great progress, yet the animal is still the basis of his being. This animal in man must be overcome; man must become rational and morally autonomous. But, while this is the inevitable destiny of mankind, man must cooperate with his destiny. Existence rests on the law of equivalents; for the realization of his destiny man must pay a high equivalent in coins of work, struggle, suffering and death. Salvation and redemption can be purchased only with sacrifice, and it must be a supreme sacrifice, requiring even the sacrifice of God himself. For this reason, God comes down as the Son of himself, assumes the human form, and sacrifices himself that mankind may attain to salvation and redemption. As I showed in the previous lecture, this sacrifice is really no sacrifice at all: it is an ascension. Isaac was required, not to be sacrificed as a burnt-offering, but to ascend to the highest moral and spiritual state. Likewise in the case of Jesus, it was not the sacrifice, the crucifixion of Jesus, but his ascension that brought to mankind salvation and redemption Now, all these ideas are intuitive symbols. The Son of God, as I showed in a previous lecture, is the soul that became the intellect. In other words, the salvation and redemption of man will come when his soul becomes intellect. Then man himself will ascend. But this process must begin with one individual, who constitutes the redeemer; he is Moses, he is Buddha, he is Jesus, and so on. But in due course of time more ani more will attain to the intellect, until a time will come when all will attain to the intellect. But this is not yet all. Underlying this idea, then is the idea of reincarnation. The salvation and redemption will come to future mankind, not as a free gift from all preceding generations of men. This would be contrary to the law of equivalents. Why should countless generations of men suffer that in the future mankind may enjoy the benefits? Hence, the law of reincarnation tells us that the future mankind will be none other than the past mankind. The essence of man is his soul, and the soul is an eternal idea of God, and therefore immortal. Man may assume and cast off an indefinite number of bodies, but the soul remains in existence. To realize her destiny, the soul must purge herself of all original sin. Hence, the destiny of mankind will be realized, not by some future generations that will come into existence, but by the very past generations that worked , struggled and died in the endeavor to realize that destiny. All these ideas are the essence of Judaism, and in the Bible these ideas are expressed most explicitly and definitely: only we need the mathematical key to understand the Bible. Let us, then, see what the Bible tells us about these ideas, using the mathematical key to decipher the language.
Click to expand...
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significance_of_numbers_in_Judaism#:~:text=other is 15.-,18,often used in gift giving.
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What about this? Significance of numbers in Judaism... only we need the mathematical key to understand the Bible. Let us, then, see what the Bible tells us about these ideas, using the mathematical key to decipher the language.
 
^Waton makes use of gematria and Kabbalah in his analysis of the Bible. Folks in the US have access to his Key to the Bible at HathiTrust. I have a scan.
 
In this thread, I have been quoting from his Bible lectures. This is an extremely rare work. There is a copy in the National Library of Israel. I asked an Israeli friend to make me a copy, which he did. I have scanned it.
 
Is this true?

"Since the Jews are the highest and most cultured people on earth, the Jews have a right to subordinate to themselves the rest of mankind and to be the masters over the whole earth. Now, indeed, this is the historic destiny of the Jews.”

— Rabbi Harry Waton p. 99 of his book
 
No Robots said:
^Ah, good. Here is my extended reply for good measure:

There is no question but that Jesus operated within the thought-realm of the Judaism of his time. This thought-realm included demonology, as your link indicates (Fabulous resource. Thanks). As indicated in the link, it is never certain to what extent a speaker/writer is making use of standard imagery for rhetoric purposes, and to what extent real belief is indicated. For the most part, this is not important. The important thing, as with all mashalim, is to penetrate to the inner significance of the speech/writing.
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Hmmmm...:unsure:

"The Babylonian Jews lived in a world which was filled with demons and spirits, malevolent and sometimes benevolent, who inhabited the air, the trees, water, roofs of houses, and privies. "

Jesus was an exorcist...an expert in demons...Maybe he saw something that bothered him in that fig tree...enough to kill it...

Either way, mashalim or not, the story makes more sense to me now...Good!
 
Karma is psychology. In modern parlance one way to look at it is 'what goes around comes around'. Karma is psychological causality, cause and effect of actions and thoughts.

Karma can be at the personal, family, ir national level.

I see Buddha as the first 'self help guru'.
 
DBT said:
Is this true?

"Since the Jews are the highest and most cultured people on earth, the Jews have a right to subordinate to themselves the rest of mankind and to be the masters over the whole earth. Now, indeed, this is the historic destiny of the Jews.”

— Rabbi Harry Waton p. 99 of his book
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Whoa! That's some serious quote mining, son. Here's the whole thing:

According to Hitler, a race of a superior culture has a right to subordinate to itself the races of an inferior culture, and the race of the highest culture has a right to be the master over the whole earth and the whole human race. What follows? Since the Jews are the highest and most cultured people on earth, the Jews have a right to subordinate to themselves the rest of mankind and to be the masters over the whole earth. Now, indeed, this is the historic destiny of the Jews, but not in the sense of Hitler and the nazis. With Jesus, who only symbolizes the Jews, the Jews say: Our kingdom is not of this world. The Jews will become the masters over the whole earth and they will subordinate to themselves all nations, not by material power, not by brute force, but by light, knowledge, understanding, humanity, peace, justice and progress. Judaism is communism, internationalism, the universal brotherhood of man, the emancipation of the working class and the human society. It is with these spiritual weapons that the Jews will conquer the world and the human race. The races and the nations will cheerfully submit to the spiritual power of Judaism, and all will become Jews.
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The book is available in full text at archive.org.
 
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