Washington Man Accused of Hurling Molotov Cocktails at ICE Detention Center Killed by Police

[ZiprHead]

These are not "concentration camps" despite AOC's irresponsible rhetoric.

This is funny coming from someone who gets so irate about someone who rapes 14 year old girls being called a pedophile.

a type of prison, often consisting of a number of buildings inside a fence, where political prisoners, etc. are kept in extremely bad conditions

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/concentration-camp

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, this guy was a reckless piece of shit. Molotov cocktails are not the answer.

The only way to accomplish an ethical goal here would require a much larger force armed with rifles, armored vehicles, heavy weapons, and coordination with those held unlawfully in custody to limit casualties.

It wouldn't even take all that many people. A small force of snipers could play havoc with the guards without being a risk to those being held. Half your force takes one shot and retreats. The other half take one shot at anyone who comes after them, then they retreat. Keep leapfrogging back until you have broken contact.

Rinse and repeat. If they guard the camp too heavily switch targets. Very soon nobody's going to be willing to be a guard.

Rather than use actual violence to threaten accomplices (guards), I say the mere threat of potential personal loss is more effective.
Dox ICE workers... all of them, not just the guards. Publish the names, addresses, children's names, schools, and school addresses of all ICE workers under the context of "if their own children are at risk, they may change their minds about supporting fascism in the name of a demagog".

I don't like the idea of threatening non-combatants. That's the realm of terrorists, not resistance fighters.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You seem to play fast and loose with your descriptions of mod actions. I warned about doxxing, not violence.

Ok. I stand corrected. The mods here apparently are a-ok with people on the left advocating violence. Seems I gave them too much credit.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The few children who died largely died because of diseases they brought from home or contracted en route. Not because of how they were treated.
In any case, nobody asked them to come here.

We don't know what's going on. We have seen deaths that were obviously due to major medical neglect.

 

[Derec]

We don't know what's going on. We have seen deaths that were obviously due to major medical neglect.

Which case specifically was "obviously" due to "major medical neglect"?

 

[Derec]

This is funny coming from someone who gets so irate about someone who rapes 14 year old girls being called a pedophile.

Raping 14 year olds is bad enough without having to resort to hyperbole. However, people on here (and elsewhere) have defended also labeling consensual sex with a 17 year old as "pedophilia".

I think the aim behind calling non-pedophilia pedophilia is the same as calling detention centers "concentration camps" - deliberate use of inflammatory language to make a political point.

a type of prison, often consisting of a number of buildings inside a fence, where political prisoners, etc. are kept in extremely bad conditions

These are not "political prisoners". Also, as far as the conditions are bad (and they are certainly not "extremely bad") is a function of the huge influx of mass migrants. How would you have organized housing people when 100,000 were showing up every month?

 

[Derec]

George Takei's opinion after being interned in two concentration camps holds merit.

That was an internment camp, not a concentration camp. Also, there is a difference between holding citizens because of their ethnicity, and holding foreigners because they show up at the border in very large numbers.

Fuckit, give them to Jeffrey Epstein then. "Nobody asked them to come here" indemnifies any acts on these worthless pieces of garbage. Fuck em.

I am not say to deliberately treat them bad. But when you have 100,000 people show up each month, it is difficult to house them adequately.
And the main responsibility for what is happening to the kids is on the parents. They have dragged their kids all this way because having children with them gives them a better chance to enter and stay in US.
Same goes for Oscar and his daughter. She is an innocent toddler, but the responsibility for her death lies solely with her father. Not with Trump. Not with border guards.

 

[Derec]

In any case, one big problem, with the camps, whatever we call them, is the awful conditions, apparently.

That is a problem but what do you or the migrants expect when 100,000 of them show up each month?

Look at Europe. Even after 4 years of mass migration crisis there, camps like Moria are much more dreadful than anything on US-Mexico border.

 

[Elixir]

These are not "political prisoners".

Pffft. Lame, dude.
They are prisoners due to the fact that locking them up serves the political purposes of America's Despot in Chief. If it didn't, they would not be locked up, there would not be a perpetual 1984 - style National Emergency and thousands of families wouldn't be torn asunder.
Epstein is a registered sex offender who rapes children.
Play your semantic games all you want - they don't change the facts.
For-profit political prisons are what they are, and you can call the pervert Epstein your role model for all I care - he's a pedophile in lay language.

 

[Patooka]

Before I discuss this topic further, I would like to point out that I am aware this is happening on the other side of the planet from me and doesn't directly affect me. But before the "whataboutisms" chime in, I reserve a lot of my outright hatred (a word I don't used often) towards this cunt, this cunt, and this cunt (who is a fucking hypocritical cunt) and their attitudes towards immigration and asylum seekers. My critique of the Tramp Administration is rather timid in comparison.

George Takei's opinion after being interned in two concentration camps holds merit.

That was an internment camp, not a concentration camp. Also, there is a difference between holding citizens because of their ethnicity, and holding foreigners because they show up at the border in very large numbers.

That you want to resort to semantics kinda shows how weak your argument is. But fine, let's go down that rabbit hole:

Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order.

What's happening at the border ticks. Every. Single. Box. They are concentration camps

I am not say to deliberately treat them bad. But when you have 100,000 people show up each month, it is difficult to house them adequately.

The money that has already been sunk into The Wall That Never Was could have covered this easily. And if this is a legitimate national emergency the logistics and resources are already there to do this properly. Nobody is asking for free Wi-Fi, being able to drink somewhere you don't shit is not a Herculean task.

And the main responsibility for what is happening to the kids is on the parents. They have dragged their kids all this way because having children with them gives them a better chance to enter and stay in US.
Same goes for Oscar and his daughter. She is an innocent toddler, but the responsibility for her death lies solely with her father. Not with Trump. Not with border guards.

So fuck 'em, amirite?

 

[Derec]

For-profit political prisons are what they are, and you can call the pervert Epstein your role model for all I care - he's a pedophile in lay language.

He is not my "role model" but words have meanings - and I have seen no evidence he is a pedophile, i.e. somebody sexually attracted to prepubescent children.
Just like these migrant detention camps are not concentration camps. Just like a bunch of mass migrants who show up at the border and demand entry are not "political prisoners".

 

[Derec]

Before I discuss this topic further, I would like to point out that I am aware this is happening on the other side of the planet from me and doesn't directly affect me. But before the "whataboutisms" chime in, I reserve a lot of my outright hatred (a word I don't used often) towards this cunt, this cunt, and this cunt (who is a fucking hypocritical cunt) and their attitudes towards immigration and asylum seekers. My critique of the Tramp Administration is rather timid in comparison.

They did it the right way - you stop the mass migration by refusing to allow them in. You let them in (like this cunt did in Europe) and you keep getting large numbers of mass migrants who are demanding entry.

What's happening at the border ticks. Every. Single. Box. They are concentration camps

Wrong. The use of "concentration camp" by the Left is for one purpose and one purpose only - to try to wrongly link Trump with Hitler. It's basically Godwin's Law.

Nobody is asking for free Wi-Fi, being able to drink somewhere you don't shit is not a Herculean task.

You try doing it for a few 100,000 people in a short time with more and more coming each day. A
All the while you have the Left insist they should just be waved through.

So fuck 'em, amirite?

I did not say that either.

 

[Patooka]

They did it the right way - you stop the mass migration by refusing to allow them in. You let them in (like this cunt did in Europe) and you keep getting large numbers of mass migrants who are demanding entry.

Wrong. The Liberal Party's "success" came solely from the fact that after the 19th of September 2013, pretty much every media outlet (News Ltd, Macquarie Radio and Sky being the big three) stopped reporting on refugees. Liberal "stopped the boats" because fuckwits like Allan Jones, Steve Price and Andrew Bolt stopped ranting about them. That was it. The simplest way to solve the refugee crisis - stop reporting about it.

Wrong. The use of "concentration camp" by the Left is for one purpose and one purpose only - to try to wrongly link Trump with Hitler. It's basically Godwin's Law.

A spade is a spade and all that. Give Godwin a colouring book and tell him to shut the fuck up and play in the corner. Thank goodness the United States is still a country where you can criticise against government policy and not have your patriotism or eligibility as a citizen be called into question, unlike Nazi Germany.

Nobody is asking for free Wi-Fi, being able to drink somewhere you don't shit is not a Herculean task.

You try doing it for a few 100,000 people in a short time with more and more coming each day. A
All the while you have the Left insist they should just be waved through.

Nope the money is there. The Trump administration feels as though it is not required to provide adequate centers for processing
source
Fast forward to around 5.00 when this is discussed in congress.

So fuck 'em, amirite?

I did not say that either.

True but you seem pretty nonchalant about the whole thing, and pretty indifferent to the discussion whether humane steps should be taken to prevent this happening again. If that's not what you are saying, then what are you saying?

 

[ruby sparks]

In any case, one big problem, with the camps, whatever we call them, is the awful conditions, apparently.

That is a problem but what do you or the migrants expect when 100,000 of them show up each month?

Look at Europe. Even after 4 years of mass migration crisis there, camps like Moria are much more dreadful than anything on US-Mexico border.

Yes indeed. It's much the same very tricky issue over here. And I agree that it's much more complicated than is often presented.

It's often a case of the have nots of the world wanting what the haves have.

For several 'western' countries, including Britain, it's also arguably to some extent or indirectly, the historical chickens coming home to roost.

 

[ruby sparks]

Just like a bunch of mass migrants who show up at the border and demand entry are not "political prisoners".

Including 'refugees' is also common in definitions. I think they could be called concentration camps. But it's seen as a loaded term, for obvious reasons, and may be used politically with that in mind. I also read that some Jewish organisations object to the term, which may imply that they want it to apply exclusively to Jewish experiences in WW2, which wouldn't seem right.

Also, to be fair, when it's refugees or mainly refugees, the preferred term I think is internment camps, or refugee camps, or migrant camps.

All things considered, there is a decent case for saying that calling them concentration camps, while arguably an option, is not the best term, imo.

 

[Arctish]

Just like a bunch of mass migrants who show up at the border and demand entry are not "political prisoners".

Including 'refugees' is also common in definitions. I think they could be called concentration camps. But it's seen as a loaded term, for obvious reasons, and may be used politically with that in mind. I also read that some Jewish organisations object to the term, which may imply that they want it to apply exclusively to Jewish experiences in WW2, which wouldn't seem right.

Indeed.

If 'concentration camp' only applies to the places where Jews were imprisoned before and during WWII, then the promise 'never again' is meaningless. Jews will never again be imprisoned in concentration camps because you've defined them away, not because you actually eliminated them and are ever vigilant against their return.

Meanwhile, human rights abuses get handwaved away because the modern version isn't _exactly_ the same as the mid-20th century ones, so move along folks, there's nothing to see here.

Except there is.

 

[ruby sparks]

Just like a bunch of mass migrants who show up at the border and demand entry are not "political prisoners".

Including 'refugees' is also common in definitions. I think they could be called concentration camps. But it's seen as a loaded term, for obvious reasons, and may be used politically with that in mind. I also read that some Jewish organisations object to the term, which may imply that they want it to apply exclusively to Jewish experiences in WW2, which wouldn't seem right.

Indeed.

If 'concentration camp' only applies to the places where Jews were imprisoned before and during WWII, then the promise 'never again' is meaningless. Jews will never again be imprisoned in concentration camps because you've defined them away, not because you actually eliminated them and are ever vigilant against their return.

Meanwhile, human rights abuses get handwaved away because the modern version isn't _exactly_ the same as the mid-20th century ones, so move along folks, there's nothing to see here.

Except there is.

I'm really lucky. I'm not directly affected, not even by British terms, because Northern Ireland is just not subject to the sort of mass arrivals that other places are. A lot of people would in fact prefer to get out of it. Lol.

So I really can't say I know what the best practical solutions are, or what each practical solution would cost. There would, I think, be a reasonable limit.

I believe the immigration issue is often overstated by the Right in Britain, and possibly also in other countries, including the USA, but then again the numbers in the USA do seem very large, and the USA has traditionally been perhaps the country most outsiders have wanted and tried to get into, in modern times.

But there surely must be better, as affordable and practical solutions than at present?

 

[ruby sparks]

If 'concentration camp' only applies to the places where Jews were imprisoned before and during WWII, then the promise 'never again' is meaningless. Jews will never again be imprisoned in concentration camps because you've defined them away, not because you actually eliminated them and are ever vigilant against their return.

Yes, although I was thinking more in terms of saying that if the term is exclusively used for Jewish experiences, or in relation to camps during that time and place, a lot of others who have suffered in concentration camps elsewhere in the world at other times would be left out. Some might even include Palestinians living in Gaza in that.

 

[ruby sparks]

And the main responsibility for what is happening to the kids is on the parents. They have dragged their kids all this way because having children with them gives them a better chance to enter and stay in US.

The way it often works is, if you were just plain lucky enough to happen to have been born in a better place, you get to tell others it's yours and they can't come into it.

Of course it's not that simple. But I think that's about the gist of it.

One reason it's not that simple is that it's only a better place on average. There will be plenty of citizens in extreme poverty or suffering other disadvantages.

 

[ruby sparks]

And the main responsibility for what is happening to the kids is on the parents. They have dragged their kids all this way because having children with them gives them a better chance to enter and stay in US.

And also, that's very simplistic and narrow. A case could also be made that if the US hasn't meddled so much in Central and South American politics, things mightn't be so bad there and fewer would want to try to move. Away from the topic of migration and onto 'trouble for the west' generally, something similar could be said about places like Iran and other parts of the Middle East too. And of Britain.

Traditionally, the 'have' countries have exploited and to some extent still do, the 'have not' ones, one way or another. It is, sadly, a big part of what makes the (human) world go around, and always has been. And it's definitely a factor in all of these sorts of things, even if it's general and not specific to individuals.

Not that that makes it your fault personally. You just inherited at least some of the results of it, that is to say those advantages which are the results of it and that you do have, since (a) not all advantages are the result of it (America can, at the same time, be very proud of what it has achieved by and for itself, imo, economically and socially and politically and so on) and (b) you won't necessarily have all or even many of the advantages.