What do you do about rape?

[Jolly_Penguin]

Are sex crimes motivated by sexual repression? It would be easy enough to compare nations to each other and demonstrate that this is the case if it were, but haven't the psychologists been telling us for decades that sex crimes are generally motivated by a desire to have power over others more than mere sexual gratification?

Most of the objectors in this thread appear to be right wingers (both conservatives and libertarians, if we must make a distinction), who are clearly worried about women no longer having a subservient role in society, which I suspect is why they get so touchy about the topic of rape.

Can you give examples from this thread of the "conservatives and libertarians" and what they are "objecting" to in this thread? I think you just blurt out these kind of kneejerk "conservolibertarian" objections regardless of the subject actual thread content.

I'm neither a libertarian or a conservative, but this tendency to turn very thread into an anti-whatever political gripe is getting boring as fuck.

It is an odd thing to say. I'm not conservative or libertarian either (though I never could figure out what the latter is supposed to mean). Especially the part about being touchy about the topic of rape. The only people I read as being touchy (no pun intended I'm sure) were Toni in her initial rant and Ravensky expressing frustration.

 

[angelo]

You're making a case for the wearing of a burka here. Why should a woman have to cover up from head to toe just because some creeps see her as a sex object? The woman may feel attractive and sexy and her self confidence be sky high if she shows a little skin. Surely not a bad thing.

Indeed. Just because some creeps see her as a sex object, and may be more likely to do so depending on how she dresses, that is no reason to force her to cover up. Its her choice. And I'll take that further than most here would. I have no issues with public nudity, so long as it is kept sanitary.

Funny you should say that. I don't see nudity as a problem in nudist beaches or resorts. It's been a long time since I heard of a woman getting raped at one these places. I've heard of a peeping tom or two getting caught with binoculars behind a shrub or something, but nothing much more serious than that.

 

[RavenSky]

Either what a woman wears does or does not make a potential rapist more likely to rape her. Pointing at other, likely stronger factors (availability) and pointing to "what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be... ", doesn't answer that question. Do you or don't you have evidence to show that men are equally inclined to rape a woman dressed attractively as not attractively? Do you or do you not have evidence to show that how she looks has no bearing on the potential rapists likelihood to do the deed?

If you do, this may play directly into the power over sexual desire argument. If you do not, then I'll stick with my intuitive guess until shown otherwise.

Since I spent several hours searching out and presenting studies with citations last time, I think this time you need to provide actual studies with citations proving that a woman's clothing does cause rape. Not your idea of "common sense" - actual studies with linked citations.

If you want to see what I and others posted before, it is on the other board. Go find it if you are really interested.

 

[Toni]

Are sex crimes motivated by sexual repression? It would be easy enough to compare nations to each other and demonstrate that this is the case if it were, but haven't the psychologists been telling us for decades that sex crimes are generally motivated by a desire to have power over others more than mere sexual gratification?

Most of the objectors in this thread appear to be right wingers (both conservatives and libertarians, if we must make a distinction), who are clearly worried about women no longer having a subservient role in society, which I suspect is why they get so touchy about the topic of rape.

Can you give examples from this thread of the "conservatives and libertarians" and what they are "objecting" to in this thread? I think you just blurt out these kind of kneejerk "conservolibertarian" objections regardless of the subject actual thread content.

I'm neither a libertarian or a conservative, but this tendency to turn very thread into an anti-whatever political gripe is getting boring as fuck.

It is an odd thing to say. I'm not conservative or libertarian either (though I never could figure out what the latter is supposed to mean). Especially the part about being touchy about the topic of rape. The only people I read as being touchy (no pun intended I'm sure) were Toni in her initial rant and Ravensky expressing frustration.

Touchy?

If by touchy, you mean incredibly frustrated and disgusted to read a bunch of people simply write off a serious issue--one that affects men as well as women--not to mention children--with simply: I don't rape people, well, I guess I am touchy. Complacency in the face of grave wrong doing and harm does tend to make me feel a bit 'touchy.'

 

[Underseer]

Are sex crimes motivated by sexual repression? It would be easy enough to compare nations to each other and demonstrate that this is the case if it were, but haven't the psychologists been telling us for decades that sex crimes are generally motivated by a desire to have power over others more than mere sexual gratification?

Most of the objectors in this thread appear to be right wingers (both conservatives and libertarians, if we must make a distinction), who are clearly worried about women no longer having a subservient role in society, which I suspect is why they get so touchy about the topic of rape.

Can you give examples from this thread of the "conservatives and libertarians" and what they are "objecting" to in this thread? I think you just blurt out these kind of kneejerk "conservolibertarian" objections regardless of the subject actual thread content.

I'm neither a libertarian or a conservative, but this tendency to turn very thread into an anti-whatever political gripe is getting boring as fuck.

It is an odd thing to say. I'm not conservative or libertarian either (though I never could figure out what the latter is supposed to mean). Especially the part about being touchy about the topic of rape. The only people I read as being touchy (no pun intended I'm sure) were Toni in her initial rant and Ravensky expressing frustration.

Touchy?

If by touchy, you mean incredibly frustrated and disgusted to read a bunch of people simply write off a serious issue--one that affects men as well as women--not to mention children--with simply: I don't rape people, well, I guess I am touchy. Complacency in the face of grave wrong doing and harm does tend to make me feel a bit 'touchy.'

Men and women have very different responses to the question "What do you do to avoid rape" despite all the protestations by woman-haters that "men have it exactly as bad."

Since they can't admit that there is a difference here and that the difference is evidence of exactly the kind of injustice they insist does not exist, it is easier for them to demean anyone complaining about the injustice.

Don't you just love the arrogance of privilege?

 

[RavenSky]

Not a study, but an interesting recent Twitter question: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/sexual-assault-survivors-answer-the-question-what-were-you-w

Yep, clearly "provocative clothing" is the cause of rape.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Do you have any idea what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be questioned as to what they were wearing at the time they were subjected to the TRAUMA of a sexual assault or rape? Probably no more than the implications of your "social experiment".

Either what a woman wears does or does not make a potential rapist more likely to rape her. Pointing at other, likely stronger factors (availability) and pointing to "what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be... ", doesn't answer that question. Do you or don't you have evidence to show that men are equally inclined to rape a woman dressed attractively as not attractively? Do you or do you not have evidence to show that how she looks has no bearing on the potential rapists likelihood to do the deed?

If you do, this may play directly into the power over sexual desire argument. If you do not, then I'll stick with my intuitive guess until shown otherwise.

As the party who introduced the claim that what a woman wears and how "enticing" and "attractive" she makes herself makes a rapist more likely to rape her, you are also the party responsible to support your claim. I find it interesting that you have provided no support to the claim YOU introduced ( and non, your theoretical "social experiment" is not support to your claim) yet you demand that folks who disagree with the claim YOU introduced and did not support be the parties supporting their counter argumentation.

How about we start with YOU supporting the claim you introduced.

 

[beero1000]

Maybe it is surprising to some, but there actually has been research done in this area. The conclusion: it's more complicated than that.

There is an association between rape and linking sex with power, but that doesn't mean that rape is always about power. There is also an association with rape and believing rape myths (like "she wouldn't wear those clothes if she didn't want it"), and an association between rape and a history of misreading social cues, etc. There are (at least 9?) different kinds of rapists, and they have different motivations. Some are about sex, some are about power, some are about sadism. No one "reason" is good enough to explain everything.

http://dare.uva.nl/document/19409

 

[Sabine Grant]

I am also wondering about what kind of association of idea is going on here in view of the question presented by the OP :

Men - what do you do to protect women from being raped?

Your claim Jolly Penguin brought the attention on women's behavior by venturing into "how enticing" and "how attractive" they make themselves and what they wear. As if women are to be the parties assuming their protection from rape based on not making themselves "enticing" and "attractive" and watching what they wear. As if the measure men could adopt to protect women from rape is to control women's choice of appearance and which degree of how "enticing" and "attractive" they make themselves to include what they wear.


However, we should all know that no matter how much women dissimulate any bit of "flesh" in some male dominated and controlled fundamentalist religious cultures, they are still victims of sexual assaults/rapes. Which demonstrates that even if men kept women dissimulating any bit of "flesh" as a measure to protect them from rape, it still would not protect women from being raped.

What it also tells us is that a protective father who will control his daughter's appearance while *thinking* it will protect her from being raped is sorely mistaken. That his associating what she wears and how "attractive" and "enticing" she makes herself to how he protects her from being raped does not address the following measures of protection :

- Hon, avoid deserted and isolated areas. Wherever you are, call me and I will come to pick you up.Or make sure that wherever you are walking to at the time, you rely on the "buddy system". The "buddy system" is strongly encouraged on Campuses so students go 2 by 2 especially when they attend evening/night classes.

-I'd like to meet the young man who is taking you out on a date.

- When at a party, never accept an open drink and never leave your drink unattended.

Etc...I will leave the etc to male posters who are invested in protecting from rape a female close to them.

Needless to say that "men can protect women from rape" via their nurturing or/ and mentoring of younger males. Starting with their own kids. The values we are brought up with are bound to carry over into our adulthood, the type of adult we will be.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You're making a case for the wearing of a burka here. Why should a woman have to cover up from head to toe just because some creeps see her as a sex object? The woman may feel attractive and sexy and her self confidence be sky high if she shows a little skin. Surely not a bad thing.

Indeed. Just because some creeps see her as a sex object, and may be more likely to do so depending on how she dresses, that is no reason to force her to cover up. Its her choice. And I'll take that further than most here would. I have no issues with public nudity, so long as it is kept sanitary.

Funny you should say that. I don't see nudity as a problem in nudist beaches or resorts. It's been a long time since I heard of a woman getting raped at one these places. I've heard of a peeping tom or two getting caught with binoculars behind a shrub or something, but nothing much more serious than that.

Good point. It doesn't take long at a nude beach or resort (and yes, I go now and then) to realize that dressing skimpy and suggestive is far sexier than going nude. That's what keeps the lingerie market going.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Either what a woman wears does or does not make a potential rapist more likely to rape her. Pointing at other, likely stronger factors (availability) and pointing to "what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be... ", doesn't answer that question. Do you or don't you have evidence to show that men are equally inclined to rape a woman dressed attractively as not attractively? Do you or do you not have evidence to show that how she looks has no bearing on the potential rapists likelihood to do the deed?

If you do, this may play directly into the power over sexual desire argument. If you do not, then I'll stick with my intuitive guess until shown otherwise.

Since I spent several hours searching out and presenting studies with citations last time, I think this time you need to provide actual studies with citations proving that a woman's clothing does cause rape. Not your idea of "common sense" - actual studies with linked citations.

If you want to see what I and others posted before, it is on the other board. Go find it if you are really interested.

So I take that as a no then.

And why would I have to present anything? You got frustrated that I don't agree with you (having never seen what you say you posted elsewhere). I don't care at all that you disagree with me. I stated that my thought on the topic is based on intuition. As I said, this isn't a topic that matters all that much to me. If you get upset that people here haven't read what you posted elsewhere, the simple solution seems to be to post it again, if it indeed does answer what I pondered above.

 

[RavenSky]

Either what a woman wears does or does not make a potential rapist more likely to rape her. Pointing at other, likely stronger factors (availability) and pointing to "what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be... ", doesn't answer that question. Do you or don't you have evidence to show that men are equally inclined to rape a woman dressed attractively as not attractively? Do you or do you not have evidence to show that how she looks has no bearing on the potential rapists likelihood to do the deed?

If you do, this may play directly into the power over sexual desire argument. If you do not, then I'll stick with my intuitive guess until shown otherwise.

Since I spent several hours searching out and presenting studies with citations last time, I think this time you need to provide actual studies with citations proving that a woman's clothing does cause rape. Not your idea of "common sense" - actual studies with linked citations.

If you want to see what I and others posted before, it is on the other board. Go find it if you are really interested.

So I take that as a no then.

And why would I have to present anything? You got frustrated that I don't agree with you (having never seen what you say you posted elsewhere). I don't care at all that you disagree with me. I stated that my thought on the topic is based on intuition. As I said, this isn't a topic that matters all that much to me. If you get upset that people here haven't read what you posted elsewhere, the simple solution seems to be to post it again, if it indeed does answer what I pondered above.

In other words, you are entirely fine with spouting your opinion and pretending it is a fact. OK, got it.

Glad I didn't waste any time even trying to dig up my previous work, since it is clear you really aren't interested.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Touchy?

If by touchy, you mean incredibly frustrated and disgusted to read a bunch of people simply write off a serious issue--one that affects men as well as women--not to mention children--with simply: I don't rape people, well, I guess I am touchy. Complacency in the face of grave wrong doing and harm does tend to make me feel a bit 'touchy.'

Nothing wrong with being passionate and expressing emotion, Toni. And touchy was not my word, it was Underseer's. It is just ironic that he would claim those responding to the thread differently than you as the ones reacting with emotion.

Men and women have very different responses to the question "What do you do to avoid rape" despite all the protestations by woman-haters that "men have it exactly as bad."

And so not to miss a beat, here is another odd claim. Who has claimed that men "have it exactly as bad" as women in regard to rape? Who is that quoting? Who says men are raped as often as women are raped? Women are raped far more often than men are. Men are generally physically assaulted far more often than women are. Saying that isn't saying that the two have it "exactly as bad".

Since they can't admit that there is a difference here and that the difference is evidence of exactly the kind of injustice they insist does not exist, it is easier for them to demean anyone complaining about the injustice.

Who has said anything like this in this thread? Saying we should care about all forms of physical assault, and not just rape, is not an inability to "admit there is a difference here" or that "injustice does not exist". Nor is it demeaning anyone.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Maybe it is surprising to some, but there actually has been research done in this area. The conclusion: it's more complicated than that.

There is an association between rape and linking sex with power, but that doesn't mean that rape is always about power. There is also an association with rape and believing rape myths (like "she wouldn't wear those clothes if she didn't want it"), and an association between rape and a history of misreading social cues, etc. There are (at least 9?) different kinds of rapists, and they have different motivations. Some are about sex, some are about power, some are about sadism. No one "reason" is good enough to explain everything.

http://dare.uva.nl/document/19409

Interesting and it makes a lot of sense. Why would we assume that all rapists have the same motivations?

 

[RavenSky]

Here's a question (after you read the link). Men - what do you do to protect women from being raped?

Ran across this website, and thought it fit your question: http://www.mencanstoprape.org/

 

[Unbeatable]

Maybe it is surprising to some, but there actually has been research done in this area. The conclusion: it's more complicated than that.

There is an association between rape and linking sex with power, but that doesn't mean that rape is always about power. There is also an association with rape and believing rape myths (like "she wouldn't wear those clothes if she didn't want it"), and an association between rape and a history of misreading social cues, etc. There are (at least 9?) different kinds of rapists, and they have different motivations. Some are about sex, some are about power, some are about sadism. No one "reason" is good enough to explain everything.

http://dare.uva.nl/document/19409

Interesting and it makes a lot of sense. Why would we assume that all rapists have the same motivations?

Wishful thinking, outgroup homogeneity bias, etc.. If there was a PD cognitive bias drinking game, it probably wouldn't take more than one thread to get alcohol poisoning.

 

[jab]

Here's a question (after you read the link). Men - what do you do to protect women from being raped?

(yes, of course, men are raped, too. Start your own thread for that, this is about a subset of rape)

This sounds like a partly made-up story to me: the "I was stunned" part.
The content of the women's and women's responses. sadly, is totally unsurprising.

BTW, I avoid rape by not being alone in a secluded place with a man I don't know well and with whom I don't want to have sex. This is true and not a joke; having been molested once as a boy, and being gay as an adult, I have had to think about male sexuality in relation to my self.

 

[Jokodo]

Do you have any idea what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be questioned as to what they were wearing at the time they were subjected to the TRAUMA of a sexual assault or rape? Probably no more than the implications of your "social experiment".

Either what a woman wears does or does not make a potential rapist more likely to rape her. Pointing at other, likely stronger factors (availability) and pointing to "what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be... ", doesn't answer that question. Do you or don't you have evidence to show that men are equally inclined to rape a woman dressed attractively as not attractively? Do you or do you not have evidence to show that how she looks has no bearing on the potential rapists likelihood to do the deed?

If you do, this may play directly into the power over sexual desire argument. If you do not, then I'll stick with my intuitive guess until shown otherwise.

Reversing the burden of evidence. You are the one making a positive claim and "intuitive guesses" and "common sense" don't replace evidence.

 

[Jokodo]

Either what a woman wears does or does not make a potential rapist more likely to rape her. Pointing at other, likely stronger factors (availability) and pointing to "what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be... ", doesn't answer that question. Do you or don't you have evidence to show that men are equally inclined to rape a woman dressed attractively as not attractively? Do you or do you not have evidence to show that how she looks has no bearing on the potential rapists likelihood to do the deed?

If you do, this may play directly into the power over sexual desire argument. If you do not, then I'll stick with my intuitive guess until shown otherwise.

Since I spent several hours searching out and presenting studies with citations last time, I think this time you need to provide actual studies with citations proving that a woman's clothing does cause rape. Not your idea of "common sense" - actual studies with linked citations.

If you want to see what I and others posted before, it is on the other board. Go find it if you are really interested.

So I take that as a no then.

And why would I have to present anything? You got frustrated that I don't agree with you (having never seen what you say you posted elsewhere). I don't care at all that you disagree with me. I stated that my thought on the topic is based on intuition. As I said, this isn't a topic that matters all that much to me. If you get upset that people here haven't read what you posted elsewhere, the simple solution seems to be to post it again, if it indeed does answer what I pondered above.

If you are admittedly not interested much in the topic and don't have anything beyond your intuition to go by, how about refraining from making positive claims in the first place?

 

[Unbeatable]

Either what a woman wears does or does not make a potential rapist more likely to rape her. Pointing at other, likely stronger factors (availability) and pointing to "what the implication is to conduct a research where rape victims would be... ", doesn't answer that question. Do you or don't you have evidence to show that men are equally inclined to rape a woman dressed attractively as not attractively? Do you or do you not have evidence to show that how she looks has no bearing on the potential rapists likelihood to do the deed?

If you do, this may play directly into the power over sexual desire argument. If you do not, then I'll stick with my intuitive guess until shown otherwise.

Reversing the burden of evidence. You are the one making a positive claim and "intuitive guesses" and "common sense" don't replace evidence.

On a pragmatic level, the burden of evidence actually appears to lie with whomever is the most emotionally invested in actually convincing others to accept their POV (and that probably only really applies when the ones they're trying to convince are sufficiently rational that they can't be swayed without evidence, a very shaky assumption when the topic is politics). In this case, that's clearly RavenSky et al. Jolly Penguin really can afford to just sit back and venture forth intuitive guesses that he doesn't care to actually prove. He has nothing to lose.