What does it mean for something to be "logically possible"?

[Juma]

No, you should try to explain how time needs time.

My comment was aimed at the post above your post. Sorry.

- - - Updated - - -

The whole thing in one sentence.

It is as possible for there to have been infinite time before some moment in time as it is to count all the integers before that moment in time.

What part of this do you have problem with:
Show with a complete argument that the hypotesis ”time has always been” must be wrong.

You have just stated something. Not shown anything.

Is it possible to count through ALL the integers?

Answer that and you should understand without any further help.

Help?
You seems to need help understanding:
Show with a complete argument that the hypotesis ”time has always been” must be wrong.

 

[untermensche]

You're trying to fit infinite time inside of passing time, as if they're two different things.

I'm modeling "infinite time". My model is counting through all the integers.

The only question is if this is possible or impossible.

If it is impossible then it is impossible "infinite time" could have already passed.

Don't split your metaphors. Don't conclude "logically impossible" from not being able to fit two images of time together. Then you won't have the problem you're having.

It is not two images. It is a model.

There is nothing irrational about making models of concepts.

Modeling time as both passing time and infinite time = confused thought.

I only have one model. And all time in the past is by definition time that has passed.

 

[beero1000]

The whole thing in one sentence.

It is as possible for there to have been infinite time before some moment in time as it is to count all the integers before that moment in time.

(emphasis added.)

The mathematics of infinity is non-intuitive sometimes. It breaks common sense. The initial reaction is "No way!" Then you see a proof.

In this video https://youtu.be/P913qwtXihk you will find a proof that (1+2+3+4+5+...) = -1/12. The proof uses addition and subtraction only.
The above proof presupposes that the Grandi series (1-1+1-1+1-1+...) = 1/2 which is proved here: https://youtu.be/yudhkUUzAgY

It is as possible for there to have been infinite time before some moment in time as it is to add up the positive integers and reach -1/12.

ETA: Go ahead, untermensche, and waste 15 minutes of your life and watch these. Try to understand. Really try. It takes only 5th grade math. Good Luck.

That's not going to be helpful. Without formalization, those 'proofs' are problematic, to say the least.

 

[untermensche]

My comment was aimed at the post above your post. Sorry.

- - - Updated - - -

The whole thing in one sentence.

It is as possible for there to have been infinite time before some moment in time as it is to count all the integers before that moment in time.

What part of this do you have problem with:
Show with a complete argument that the hypotesis ”time has always been” must be wrong.

You have just stated something. Not shown anything.

Is it possible to count through ALL the integers?

Answer that and you should understand without any further help.

Help?
You seems to need help understanding:
Show with a complete argument that the hypotesis ”time has always been” must be wrong.

Show me one is needed.

What specific problem do you have? Who told you this was nevessary?

If you want to see if infinite time in the past is possible you can model infinite time in some way to see if it is possible.

Do you have a problem with the model?

Infinite time is the amount of time needed to count through ALL the integers.

Now when we try to apply this model to the time that has passed before any given moment you can see it is impossible infinite time could have ended before any moment.

 

[untermensche]

(emphasis added.)

The mathematics of infinity is non-intuitive sometimes. It breaks common sense. The initial reaction is "No way!" Then you see a proof.

In this video https://youtu.be/P913qwtXihk you will find a proof that (1+2+3+4+5+...) = -1/12. The proof uses addition and subtraction only.
The above proof presupposes that the Grandi series (1-1+1-1+1-1+...) = 1/2 which is proved here: https://youtu.be/yudhkUUzAgY

It is as possible for there to have been infinite time before some moment in time as it is to add up the positive integers and reach -1/12.

ETA: Go ahead, untermensche, and waste 15 minutes of your life and watch these. Try to understand. Really try. It takes only 5th grade math. Good Luck.

That's not going to be helpful. Without formalization, those 'proofs' are problematic, to say the least.

None of them apply to infinite time.

There are no tricks to play with infinite time.

If it existed it HAD to ALL pass.

Which is impossible.

 

[beero1000]

That's not going to be helpful. Without formalization, those 'proofs' are problematic, to say the least.

None of them apply to infinite time.

There are no tricks to play with infinite time.

If it existed it HAD to ALL pass.

Which is impossible.

Had to all pass from when? You are still begging the question.

 

[untermensche]

None of them apply to infinite time.

There are no tricks to play with infinite time.

If it existed it HAD to ALL pass.

Which is impossible.

Had to all pass from when? You are still begging the question.

It is an amount or time that can't pass.

From anywhere, any when.

From which "when" do you claim it is possible to count ALL the integers?

 

[beero1000]

Had to all pass from when? You are still begging the question.

It is an amount or time that can't pass.

From anywhere, any when.

And if there is no beginning then it doesn't all have to pass from a when. Assuming that it has to pass from some when is assuming that there must be a beginning. Begging the question, like I said.

 

[untermensche]

It is an amount or time that can't pass.

From anywhere, any when.

And if there is no beginning then it doesn't all have to pass from a when. Assuming that it has to pass from some when is assuming that there must be a beginning. Begging the question, like I said.

It all has to pass.

Asking from when is not in any way material. It is not a question that makes any sense.

There is no doubt that at any moment ALL the time in the past has passed.

It could not have passed if it was infinite.

 

[untermensche]

It is an amount or time that can't pass.

From anywhere, any when.

And if there is no beginning then it doesn't all have to pass from a when. Assuming that it has to pass from some when is assuming that there must be a beginning. Begging the question, like I said.

You have no rational point.

The time in the past has ALL passed.

The question is: Is it possible it was infinite?

If you can count ALL the integers then it was possible.

 

[beero1000]

And if there is no beginning then it doesn't all have to pass from a when. Assuming that it has to pass from some when is assuming that there must be a beginning. Begging the question, like I said.

You have no rational point.

The time in the past has ALL passed.

The question is: Is it possible it was infinite?

If you can count ALL the integers then it was possible.

I'm not saying the past hasn't passed, you knob. It's called 'the past' for a reason.

It's like you have no reading comprehension ability at all; no wonder your reasoning abilities are so lacking.

 

[untermensche]

You have no rational point.

The time in the past has ALL passed.

The question is: Is it possible it was infinite?

If you can count ALL the integers then it was possible.

I'm not saying the past hasn't passed, you knob. It's called 'the past' for a reason.

It's like you have no reading comprehension ability at all; no wonder your reasoning abilities are so lacking.

You're not making any rational point.

Don't blame me.

If you can count to the end of the integers then infinite time can pass.

 

[fromderinside]

It's a class thing. If time can pass then infinite time can pass.

Test. The time is now.
Retest. The time is now one.
Time now precedes time now one.
Time now is in the past.
Time passes.

 

[untermensche]

Can you recite ALL the integers?

If you can then infinite time can pass.

 

[bilby]

I know people want some kind of formal argument, but this is not an argument.

So, you can prove that it is logically impossible, as long as you are allowed to abandon formal arguments?

That's really very impressive, but probably not in the way you imagine.

I honestly have never before seen someone trying to prove that something is 'logically impossible' who has had the unmitigated gall to demand as a prerequisite that we abandon logic and reason.

Bravo.

- - - Updated - - -

Can you recite ALL the integers?

If you can then infinite time can pass.

Pass? I doubt it would be possible to swallow it in the first place.

 

[bilby]

I'm not saying the past hasn't passed, you knob. It's called 'the past' for a reason.

It's like you have no reading comprehension ability at all; no wonder your reasoning abilities are so lacking.

You're not making any rational point.

Don't blame me.

If you can count to the end of the integers then infinite time can pass.

If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit.

 

[untermensche]

You're not making any rational point.

Don't blame me.

If you can count to the end of the integers then infinite time can pass.

If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit.

When fools are reduced to this you know they are as lost as a fool can be.

If the past was infinite then it would be possible to recite ALL the integers in it.

Then you could tell us which is the last one.

 

[Kharakov]

Tell me how an arrow can reach its target. It goes halfway there, halfway there again, and again and again forever, never quite reaching it.

Obviously after a while you are not making meaningful divisions.

If some moment is divided and it results in two "moments" exactly like the first moment then you are not really dividing anymore.

That moment is indivisible.

And you're taking smaller slices of time as well. The whole paradox is... a trick or something.

 

[bilby]

If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit.

When fools are reduced to this you know they are as lost as a fool can be.

Well, yes. That's exactly the point I am making.

If the past was infinite then it would be possible to recite ALL the integers in it.

Then you could tell us which is the last one.

...and yet you persist.

Very strange.

 

[untermensche]

Obviously after a while you are not making meaningful divisions.

If some moment is divided and it results in two "moments" exactly like the first moment then you are not really dividing anymore.

That moment is indivisible.

And you're taking smaller slices of time as well. The whole paradox is... a trick or something.

I'm not making any slices.

I'm modeling infinite time. It is the amount of time it would take to recite ALL the integers.

Claiming the time before some moment was infinite is to claim it was possible for someone to recite ALL the integers before some moment.

- - - Updated - - -

When fools are reduced to this you know they are as lost as a fool can be.

Well, yes. That's exactly the point I am making.

If the past was infinite then it would be possible to recite ALL the integers in it.

Then you could tell us which is the last one.

...and yet you persist.

Very strange.

OK Schultz. You are done. You once again have no point.

Which is your normal behavior.