What has conservatism given America?

[TomC]

Does Trump era Republicanism fit old definitions of Conservative any longer? The Lincoln Project? Who are the real Conservatives, in our present environment? Are they a nearly extinct species?

The mixing up goes way back. Slick Willy at least.
He signed NAFTA, throwing labor unions under the bus. He signed DOMA throwing gay folks under the bus. Calling him a liberal is kinda weird.

Bush blew up the economy with his insane spending. He insisted on "bringing democracy" to the benighted religious mideast. Calling him conservative is kinda weird.

Then a centrist Democrat took office.
Centrist.
Democrat.

Then a progressive Republican...

We managed to get another centrist by electing another Democrat. And the Republican progressives went berserk! Full tilt "overthrow the government" and put women back in their place berserk.
Even "Well, the evil empire of Russia isn't so bad" berserk.

And here we are.
Tom

 

[ideologyhunter]

Does Trump era Republicanism fit old definitions of Conservative any longer? The Lincoln Project? Who are the real Conservatives, in our present environment? Are they a nearly extinct species?

An instructive read is Write It When I'm Gone, a collection of off-the-record interviews that Gerald Ford gave to a trusted reporter (btw, imagine who a 'trusted reporter' would have to be, in Trumpworld.) Ford looked at the Gingrich crowd then making noise about the Contract with America, etc. and said that he would be drummed out of the party if he were still politically active. Reagan, who looked so absolutely bedrock conservative back in the 80s, would be called a RINO by Marjorie and her fellow cultists. Today, support for every criminal act of Trump is an entry requirement to power in the GOP. These folks didn't go down the rabbit hole, as the old metaphor had it. They've imagined and then inhabited a crazy alternate America with 'alternative facts'. Evidence not required. Morality, not an issue. Just full-on rage, belligerence, and power-grabbing. That's why we love 'em.

 

[Tigers!]

The OP talks about the US so not being of the US I can only speak tangentially.
I certainly prefer 'Burkean Conservatism'

 

[Thomas II]

Do we really need the silly debate about who or what deserves the conservative or liberal label? We all know who both sides are.

 

[Toni]

Do we really need the silly debate about who or what deserves the conservative or liberal label? We all know who both sides are.

I think we do because these days, what most people who call themselves conservatives actually are is fascists. As well as ignorant, racist, sexist, homophobic hypocrites. That’s not a political leaning, that’s a raft of moral failures.

 

[Gospel]

Does Trump era Republicanism fit old definitions of Conservative any longer? The Lincoln Project? Who are the real Conservatives, in our present environment? Are they a nearly extinct species?

Nope they don't fit, but they do align with white Christian nationalists, who have historically influenced the sort of crap they're into now, much like their influence on the Democratic Party in the past.

 

[ZiprHead]

I think this is appropriate here.

 

[Politesse]

I would be interested in any rebuttal to this to provide how they think they aren’t this.

We'd need to start by agreeing upon what "conservatism" means in the real "Here and Now" world.
To me, it includes keeping RvW but not building The Wall.
YMMV
Tom

How is building a big wall to keep scary people away anything but a conservative project? Liberals are not known for the kind of panicked, irrational xenophobia that produces such rash actions at the expense of economic life.

 

[Jarhyn]

It's strange... many conservatives are decent, honest people. But when you grow up in a worldview and religion and political environment which is designed to convert your good faith to bad ends, it doesn't matter. People hear "for the children" and as long as they don't really understand, they can be led by the nose to do evil against an out-group.

Child marriage, child groomer pageants, deprivation of sex and consent education, coverup of child rape... all "for the children". Eventually some icky part of the mind comes to realize all that and realizes it doesn't really care, and likes it, and that's the metaphor behind IT.

And some people decide they don't like it but can't look directly at that truth because it just hurts too much so they shrivel in their support and stay in for the people rather than contributing anything foul.

 

[Politesse]

Does Trump era Republicanism fit old definitions of Conservative any longer? The Lincoln Project? Who are the real Conservatives, in our present environment? Are they a nearly extinct species?

Yes. "Let's take things back to the good old days and defend the power and influence of the wealthy" is the same old idea Republicans have been harping on ever since they started rebranding themselves as conservatives to begin with. Trump has put new lipstick on it, but it really is just orange gloss on the same old lips. Even the valorization of brainless Hollywood celebrities as political "geniuses" is hardly a new trend, they've been trying the exact same thing since they believed it worked with Reagan. It's part of the reason they are powerless to resist Trump's takeover, he's using the very political tools they worked so long to establish. Xenophobia, misogyny, fear of the "urban" blacks and immigrants, the drug war. None of these things were invented by Donald John Trump. The debate this past week displayed the problem very clearly. They want distance from him, but they can't actually confront him on the issues, because they agree with him on those. Every last one of them will still vote for the man. They tepidly rose their hands to prove it, like schoolchildren admitting to having killed the class hamster. To abandon him entirely would mean abandoning their most basic principles and replacing them with something terrifying to them. They won't and can't do it.

 

[Tigers!]

Do we really need the silly debate about who or what deserves the conservative or liberal label? We all know who both sides are.

I think we do because these days, what most people who call themselves conservatives actually are is fascists. As well as ignorant, racist, sexist, homophobic hypocrites. That’s not a political leaning, that’s a raft of moral failures.

I am glad you managed to get your all prejudices into a single sentence.
When you throw out a comment like that I have to ask - Have you ever met a fascist or is a fascist just someone who dares disagree with you?

 

[Bomb#20]

The OP talks about the US so not being of the US I can only speak tangentially.
I certainly prefer 'Burkean Conservatism'

Funny story about that -- Burke was a Whig. The Whigs were the people the Liberal Party evolved from. The Conservative Party evolved from the Tories, who Burke spent his career arguing against.

 

[Rhea]

Do we really need the silly debate about who or what deserves the conservative or liberal label? We all know who both sides are.

I think we do because these days, what most people who call themselves conservatives actually are is fascists. As well as ignorant, racist, sexist, homophobic hypocrites. That’s not a political leaning, that’s a raft of moral failures.

I am glad you managed to get your all prejudices into a single sentence.
When you throw out a comment like that I have to ask - Have you ever met a fascist or is a fascist just someone who dares disagree with you?

What do you think they are if they want a government with centralized authority and violent suppression of opposition? What would you call them? That’s what Trump calls for, that’s what his unwavering base of support echoes the call for.

fascism

făsh′ĭz″əm

noun​

1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
3. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Lock ‘em up
Build a wall
Ban the books
Jail the abortionists
Shoot the suspect
Call the opposition traitors and tell them to leave the country
Wave the huge flags
Thump your chest
Protect the wealthy
Suppress (or jail) the gender fluid and non-conforming
Arm the teachers
Close the borders
America First
Glorify the military and police
Crush the Unions
Suppress the votes of the minorities



What do you call them?

 

[Gospel]

There's definitely some overlap with white Christian nationalists & fascists.

 

[Gospel]

yo yo, I got bars!

Opposition labeled & directed to dip
Flags erected are erections, a nation of pricks
for insurrection, Chest-thumping, Who invests in the gold god
suppresses the fluid & protects the old guard?
crushed unions, teachers armed, make borders all tight,
"America First" in the spotlight & on the bombsight
alt-right in camo, blue on beat donning heat
playing musical chairs to the last minority seat

 

[Toni]

Do we really need the silly debate about who or what deserves the conservative or liberal label? We all know who both sides are.

I think we do because these days, what most people who call themselves conservatives actually are is fascists. As well as ignorant, racist, sexist, homophobic hypocrites. That’s not a political leaning, that’s a raft of moral failures.

I am glad you managed to get your all prejudices into a single sentence.
When you throw out a comment like that I have to ask - Have you ever met a fascist or is a fascist just someone who dares disagree with you?

What do you think they are if they want a government with centralized authority and violent suppression of opposition? What would you call them? That’s what Trump calls for, that’s what his unwavering base of support echoes the call for.

fascism

făsh′ĭz″əm

noun​

1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
3. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Lock ‘em up
Build a wall
Ban the books
Jail the abortionists
Shoot the suspect
Call the opposition traitors and tell them to leave the country
Wave the huge flags
Thump your chest
Protect the wealthy
Suppress (or jail) the gender fluid and non-conforming
Arm the teachers
Close the borders
America First
Glorify the military and police
Crush the Unions
Suppress the votes of the minorities



What do you call them?

Yeah, I was going to reply but yours is way better.

 

[TomC]

How is building a big wall to keep scary people away anything but a conservative project?

Here's what it says at the base of the Statue of Liberty:
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Anybody who wants to build a Wall to keep out those people is not a conservative. They aren't even a reactionary.
They are progressives. They advocate progressing beyond the olden "Nation of Immigrants" days.

Sorry, but I personally am way too conservative to support Trumpists and their idiotic progressivism. In a batch of different ways, but that's one. A big one.
Tom

Tom

 

[TomC]

Liberals are not known for the kind of panicked, irrational xenophobia that produces such rash actions at the expense of economic life.

I don't think that the word "liberal" has much useful meaning any more.

If a person wants to return to the SCOTUS ruling of 1973, RvW, that's conservative.
Tom

 

[thebeave]

How is building a big wall to keep scary people away anything but a conservative project?

Here's what it says at the base of the Statue of Liberty:
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Anybody who wants to build a Wall to keep out those people is not a conservative. They aren't even a reactionary.
They are progressives. They advocate progressing beyond the olden "Nation of Immigrants" days.

Sorry, but I personally am way too conservative to support Trumpists and their idiotic progressivism. In a batch of different ways, but that's one. A big one.
Tom

Tom

Americans Used to Support a Border Wall. What Changed Their Minds?

But just a few years ago a majority of Americans supported building a border wall or fence. In 2013, an ABC News/Washington Post survey found that nearly two-thirds (65 percent) of Americans supported building a 700-mile fence along the border with Mexico and adding 20,000 border patrol agents.

The same survey found a slim majority (52 percent) still favored building a wall even when told it would cost $46 billion—much higher than Trump’s current request. Similarly in 2011, a majority (57 percent) supported building a security fence, even without additional patrol personal, a Quinnipiac poll found.

Not only that, but in early 2006 a Time/SRBI poll found that a slim majority (52 percent) of Democrats also favored “building a security fence along the 2,000-mile US-Mexican border.” Sixty-one percent (61 percent) of Republicans also agreed. Between 2005 and 2015, polls show that nearly half of Democrats continued to support building a border barrier of some kind.

 

[TomC]

@thebeave
Could you explain whether or not that last post was intended to be relevant to mine?
If so, in what way?
Tom