What has conservatism given America?

[Tigers!]

The OP talks about the US so not being of the US I can only speak tangentially.
I certainly prefer 'Burkean Conservatism'

Funny story about that -- Burke was a Whig. The Whigs were the people the Liberal Party evolved from. The Conservative Party evolved from the Tories, who Burke spent his career arguing against.

History does throw up some strange and curious events, paths and people.

 

[Tigers!]

There's a difference between conservative and Conservative.

Do you have a definition that you could provide that could enlighten us all?

 

[Politesse]

Americans Used to Support a Border Wall. What Changed Their Minds?

But just a few years ago a majority of Americans supported building a border wall or fence. In 2013, an ABC News/Washington Post survey found that nearly two-thirds (65 percent) of Americans supported building a 700-mile fence along the border with Mexico and adding 20,000 border patrol agents.

The same survey found a slim majority (52 percent) still favored building a wall even when told it would cost $46 billion—much higher than Trump’s current request. Similarly in 2011, a majority (57 percent) supported building a security fence, even without additional patrol personal, a Quinnipiac poll found.

Not only that, but in early 2006 a Time/SRBI poll found that a slim majority (52 percent) of Democrats also favored “building a security fence along the 2,000-mile US-Mexican border.” Sixty-one percent (61 percent) of Republicans also agreed. Between 2005 and 2015, polls show that nearly half of Democrats continued to support building a border barrier of some kind.

It's not like racism is some sort of great mystery for the ages. Unless it is load bearing, building any wall is a symbolic action.

 

[Politesse]

Liberals are not known for the kind of panicked, irrational xenophobia that produces such rash actions at the expense of economic life.

I don't think that the word "liberal" has much useful meaning any more.

If a person wants to return to the SCOTUS ruling of 1973, RvW, that's conservative.
Tom

I do not agree. That decision was made on the grounds of protecting the civil liberties afforded to Americans as citizens against the illiberal theocratic forays of certain state laws. I don't think a liberal must support that decision, but it's absurd to suggest that protecting civil liberties against authoritarian threats is a conservative enterprise. It is not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

fascism

făsh′ĭz″əm

noun​

1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator,

Lets weaponize the law with the FBI to get rid of another political opponent.

1) Your side was the one that weaponized it to get His Flatulence elected.

2) What we are seeing now is not weaponization, but simply justice catching up with his misdeeds. We've been telling you he did wrong, now we are seeing the prosecutors bringing the charges on what we have talked about for years.

1. a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls,

Lets make sure we direct Twitter and other Facebook monopolies cancel what we do not want the public to hear

No. Nobody tried to do that. What they tried to do is stop them from saying things known to be false.

1. violent suppression of the opposition

Make sure Jan 6 dissenters never come out of prison again. Turm BLM loose on anyone who isn't in our tribe.

They were a failed coup, not "dissenters". They're getting off very lightly for what they did.

1. , and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

White men are discriminated from colleges and jobs.

Well, 1 for 4.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

White men being discriminated against by employers? Then why do white men have such low unemployment rates?

E-16. Unemployment rates by age, sex, race, and Hispanic or Latino ethnicity

www.bls.gov

You're not proving your point as these are not incompatible things. White males can both have a low unemployment rate but be discriminated against. Same thing as we see with Asians and colleges--more are admitted yet they are being discriminated against at the same time.

With whites it's a matter of more of the blacks and hispanics being out of the skilled labor force due to criminal records--and skilled jobs have a lower unemployment rate than unskilled.

Asian Americans have the highest college education completion rates followed whites. For some years, women have been the majority of students at 4 year colleges but there is no evidence that this is fir to discrimination against males rather than males having better access to middle class wages jobs ( such as trades) compared with women. I would also like to see a closer ratio of men: women obtaining college degrees. I’m not certain why the disparity but afaik, men are not being rejected in favor of women students.

It's not discrimination when it's your side with the advantage??

 

[pood]

fascism

făsh′ĭz″əm

noun​

1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator,

Lets weaponize the law with the FBI to get rid of another political opponent.

If you’re referring to the prosecution of Trump, your claim echoes a right-wing lie. He‘s being prosecuted because he broke the law multiple times, including stealing classified documents and refusing to return them, and instigating an attempted coup against the U.S. government.

1. a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls,

Lets make sure we direct Twitter and other Facebook monopolies cancel what we do not want the public to hear

I don’t think the government has censored Twitter of Facebook. Twitter, before it was hijacked by a right-wing moron, banished Trump from its platform for lying and trying to instigate a coup. Twitter and Facebook are private conpanies. They are free to set their own terms of use, just as this message board does. Are you suddenly departing from conservative orthodoxy and saying that private companies should be forced to do certain things that make you happy?

1. violent suppression of the opposition

Make sure Jan 6 dissenters never come out of prison again. Turm BLM loose on anyone who isn't in our tribe.

Dissenters? Jan. 6 insurrectionists invaded the Capitol and caused people to die. They tried to overturn the government. Yet none of them has been sentenced to life in prison. As to BLM, what motivates this whiny racist attack? Turn them loose? Turn who lose, and on whom or what? BLM isn’t even any kind of formal group, any more than Antifa is. It’s just a term used for people who agree that, well, black lives fucking matter. Do you disagree? Antifa is just a term to describe anyone who is anti-fascist. Are you pro-fascist?

1. , and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

White men are discriminated from colleges and jobs.

So you think affirmative action is a zero-sum game? This is utter bullshit as usual from right-wingers, who also conveniently ignore legacy admissions in colleges that almost universally favor white people. Stop whining. White people put people of color under the boot for practically the entire history of this country, and still do whenever they are able to get away with it.

This sounds exactly like the present Democrat party to me... A new woke religion for society to worship instead of Christianity.

Woke is not a religion, it is just is a new term to describe an old idea that this country is not the sole province of white male heterosexual racists, misogynists and homophobes.

I agree with Tom C, what was the Democrat party was in the past....aint what it is today.

Not sure what Tom said about this, but I’d say the Democratic Party needs to resurrect FDR, Truman, and LBJ (minus Vietnam). Based on your posts, I feel certain that you would oppose the old Democratic Party even more strongly than you do the current version.

 

[pood]

I love this Orwellian idea that the people who tried to overturn the goverment and stop a duly elected president from being certified and sworn in are “dissenters.” Oh, so nicely sanitized! I suppose someone who murders black people because they are black, which happens appallingly often and just happened again a couple of days ago, are also “dissenters.” Dissenters against what? Surely they are not racist psychos. That’s so harsh! No, in good Orwellian fashion, we shall call them “dissenters against woke ideology, BLM and Antifa.”

 

[Toni]

White men being discriminated against by employers? Then why do white men have such low unemployment rates?

E-16. Unemployment rates by age, sex, race, and Hispanic or Latino ethnicity

www.bls.gov

You're not proving your point as these are not incompatible things. White males can both have a low unemployment rate but be discriminated against. Same thing as we see with Asians and colleges--more are admitted yet they are being discriminated against at the same time.

With whites it's a matter of more of the blacks and hispanics being out of the skilled labor force due to criminal records--and skilled jobs have a lower unemployment rate than unskilled.

Asian Americans have the highest college education completion rates followed whites. For some years, women have been the majority of students at 4 year colleges but there is no evidence that this is fir to discrimination against males rather than males having better access to middle class wages jobs ( such as trades) compared with women. I would also like to see a closer ratio of men: women obtaining college degrees. I’m not certain why the disparity but afaik, men are not being rejected in favor of women students.

It's not discrimination when it's your side with the advantage??

I don't know if just how revealing that statement of yours that I bolded is.

FWIW, I have a family member who has had a decades long (about 50 years worth, actually) of substance abuse along with a criminal record including felony convictions. Lots of stuff he could have/should have been charged with but family refused to press charges despite the physical assaults (pushing someone through a window, pushing someone down a flight of stairs plus other stuff) and the thefts.

He's always working. He never has a problem finding a job. Works as much as he can--which is less than he used to do because those 5 decades or so of hard drinking and drugging have caught up with him big time. Has worked since he was 15-16 years old. Only time he wasn't working was when he was incarcerated. Of course he has zero savings at the age when he ought to be able to retire.

He's white, btw.

 

[bigfield]

When progressives are in government they build things.

When conservatives are in government they knock things down or just sit on their hands and claim that makes them the "natural party of government".

 

[RVonse]

I think this is appropriate here.

He starts out saying he was against the Viet Nam war.....ok. Then he says the right has gone much further right because they are the party of war? Who started the war in Ukraine? Who wants to end that war? Talk about cognitive dissonance reached to a new level..... My head is spinning with all this bull shit. Who is the POTUS who just got his ass handed to him by the people of Maui for NOT giving a shit about them and clearing the way for more billions to Ukraine?

Just to be clear it is obvious both sides favor the military complex but it is the Democrats who are much more on board with war today.

This tells me you didn't actually watch the video, just pretending you did.

No where in the video is the above bolded ever said, not even close, which makes the rest of your rant bullshit.

Time stamp 1:49. The left is no longer against the war machine in any way. Clinton, Obama, and Biden started wars. Trump did not.

 

[RVonse]

fascism

făsh′ĭz″əm

noun​

1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator,

Lets weaponize the law with the FBI to get rid of another political opponent.

1) Your side was the one that weaponized it to get His Flatulence elected.

2) What we are seeing now is not weaponization, but simply justice catching up with his misdeeds. We've been telling you he did wrong, now we are seeing the prosecutors bringing the charges on what we have talked about for years.

91 indictments right before a POTUS election? And look at the timing and location of the trials (where they voted 90% Biden) Loren.

Today the absence of law in the United States government presents the United States to the world as an insane asylum in which either American voters are so incompetent as to elect and reelect a hardened criminal to the Presidency (hardly a recommendation for democracy) or the Democrats are so lawless that they will not permit an honest election to keep them from power and, therefore, weaponize law in order to destroy their political opponent.

No matter which side you prefer its getting embarrassing IMO. And no matter which side your ideology, you can not deny the Democrats are turning the US into a "Banana Republic".

 

[RVonse]

1. a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls,

Lets make sure we direct Twitter and other Facebook monopolies cancel what we do not want the public to hear

No. Nobody tried to do that. What they tried to do is stop them from saying things known to be false.

I would recommend you inform yourself better. The FBI was clearly doing much more than that.

 

[TomC]

Not sure what Tom said about this, but I’d say the Democratic Party needs to resurrect FDR, Truman, and LBJ (minus Vietnam). Based on your posts, I feel certain that you would oppose the old Democratic Party even more strongly than you do the current version.

I'm not sure either.
But I think he's referring to an opinion I've expressed several times, long before this thread.
The Democrats have moved a long way toward the right. I first started noticing it in the 90s under Clinton. They are now the center right party. That used to be the Republicans.
I believe it's a result of that that the GOP has gone into extremist territory. La la land, IMHO.
Tom

 

[RVonse]

I love this Orwellian idea that the people who tried to overturn the goverment and stop a duly elected president from being certified and sworn in are “dissenters.” Oh, so nicely sanitized! I suppose someone who murders black people because they are black, which happens appallingly often and just happened again a couple of days ago, are also “dissenters.” Dissenters against what? Surely they are not racist psychos. That’s so harsh! No, in good Orwellian fashion, we shall call them “dissenters against woke ideology, BLM and Antifa.”

It was not an insurrection either, it was simply a protest with some violent elements. If this was really an insurrection like the Democrats claim, ask yourself what really would have happened even if they had been successful stopping congress? Not much. Biden would still be president, they just would have had to do a little more due process with the vote counting before he was sworn in.

 

[TomC]

It was not an insurrection either, it was simply a protest with some violent elements. If this was really an insurrection like the Democrats claim, ask yourself what really would have happened even if they had been successful stopping congress? Not much. Biden would still be president, they just would have had to do a little more due process with the vote counting before he was sworn in.

That's nearly as bizarre a misrepresentation of the facts as was Trump's lie "Obama ordered the wiretapping of my campaign headquarters. Dirty politics!"
Tom

 

[ideologyhunter]

Insurrection (n.) - a violent uprising against an authority or government

It certainly was an insurrection, only it was carried out by yahoos and total wackos. Violent? Yep. Uprising against authority or government? Yep. (Side issue.) Done by low IQ, low-class people? That's my take, so yes. Insurrections don't have to be directed by literate schemers. The orange clown who literally gave them marching orders is as dumb as they come.

 

[Toni]

fascism

făsh′ĭz″əm

noun​

1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator,

Lets weaponize the law with the FBI to get rid of another political opponent.

1) Your side was the one that weaponized it to get His Flatulence elected.

2) What we are seeing now is not weaponization, but simply justice catching up with his misdeeds. We've been telling you he did wrong, now we are seeing the prosecutors bringing the charges on what we have talked about for years.

91 indictments right before a POTUS election? And look at the timing and location of the trials (where they voted 90% Biden) Loren.

Today the absence of law in the United States government presents the United States to the world as an insane asylum in which either American voters are so incompetent as to elect and reelect a hardened criminal to the Presidency (hardly a recommendation for democracy) or the Democrats are so lawless that they will not permit an honest election to keep them from power and, therefore, weaponize law in order to destroy their political opponent.

No matter which side you prefer its getting embarrassing IMO. And no matter which side your ideology, you can not deny the Democrats are turning the US into a "Banana Republic".

91 indictments more than a year before an election.

Trump attempted ejection interference in states that went for Biden. He had no need to attempt election interference in states he was winning.

Trump attempted insurrection in the Capitol of the United States—because that is where the election results are made official.

 

[thebeave]

Can conservatism take credit for the rapid collapse of communism back in the late '80's and early '90's? Some might say that was a good thing for the world (though I know many of you pinko commie bastards would disagree ).

 

[Harry Bosch]

I love this Orwellian idea that the people who tried to overturn the goverment and stop a duly elected president from being certified and sworn in are “dissenters.” Oh, so nicely sanitized! I suppose someone who murders black people because they are black, which happens appallingly often and just happened again a couple of days ago, are also “dissenters.” Dissenters against what? Surely they are not racist psychos. That’s so harsh! No, in good Orwellian fashion, we shall call them “dissenters against woke ideology, BLM and Antifa.”

It was not an insurrection either, it was simply a protest with some violent elements. If this was really an insurrection like the Democrats claim, ask yourself what really would have happened even if they had been successful stopping congress? Not much. Biden would still be president, they just would have had to do a little more due process with the vote counting before he was sworn in.

And what would more due process have accomplished?