What liberals (still) get wrong about Trump's support

[untermensche]

In Venezuela the means of production are mostly privately owned.

It is a mixed capitalist economy.

The difference under Chavez was the government favored people that had been abused for decades as opposed to most governments under capitalism that favor businesses over workers.

When capitalists merely see a government like Venezuela's that favors workers they freak out and claim the world is not right and begin to attack the government.

Unfortunately after Chavez the government drifted into corruption, something so common in capitalist economies.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

In Venezuela the means of production are mostly privately owned.

I suppose, if you consider being owned by the government to be privately owned, one could theoretically make that claim.

Unfortunately after Chavez the government drifted into corruption, something so common in capitalist economies.

Corruption makes it not TRUE socialism?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Venezuela is a mixed capitalist economy.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

There is widespread private ownership.

It is a mixed capitalist economy.

There are no specific capitalist principles.

There are only handy slogans and the constant breakdown of so-called capitalist economies.

Widespread private ownership of businesses too small to be worth stealing.

 

[ZiprHead]

In Venezuela the means of production are mostly privately owned.

I suppose, if you consider being owned by the government to be privately owned, one could theoretically make that claim.

Unfortunately after Chavez the government drifted into corruption, something so common in capitalist economies.

Corruption makes it not TRUE socialism?

Corruption always has a bit of capitalism in it. "I, as a member of the government, have access to grant x resource/licensure/zoning/etc. I can grease the wheels for you if you pay me. Don't want to/can't pay me, you don't get shit."

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I suppose, if you consider being owned by the government to be privately owned, one could theoretically make that claim.



Corruption makes it not TRUE socialism?

Corruption always has a bit of capitalism in it. "I, as a member of the government, have access to grant x resource/licensure/zoning/etc. I can grease the wheels for you if you pay me. Don't want to/can't pay me, you don't get shit."

So pure communism as you advocate always has a bit of "capitalism" in it?

 

[ZiprHead]

I suppose, if you consider being owned by the government to be privately owned, one could theoretically make that claim.



Corruption makes it not TRUE socialism?

Corruption always has a bit of capitalism in it. "I, as a member of the government, have access to grant x resource/licensure/zoning/etc. I can grease the wheels for you if you pay me. Don't want to/can't pay me, you don't get shit."

So pure communism as you advocate always has a bit of "capitalism" in it?

No, corrupt communism always has a bit of capitalism in it.

 

[untermensche]

In Venezuela the means of production are mostly privately owned.

I suppose, if you consider being owned by the government to be privately owned, one could theoretically make that claim.

Unfortunately after Chavez the government drifted into corruption, something so common in capitalist economies.

Corruption makes it not TRUE socialism?

Most enterprises were and are privately owned.

It is regulated capitalism.

Wikipedia lists 19 businesses owned by the Venezuelan government.

Government-owned companies of Venezuela

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Government-owned_companies_of_Venezuela

 

[ZiprHead]

I suppose, if you consider being owned by the government to be privately owned, one could theoretically make that claim.



Corruption makes it not TRUE socialism?

Corruption always has a bit of capitalism in it. "I, as a member of the government, have access to grant x resource/licensure/zoning/etc. I can grease the wheels for you if you pay me. Don't want to/can't pay me, you don't get shit."

So pure communism as you advocate always has a bit of "capitalism" in it?

Straw man. Where have I ever advocated for communism?

If you would spend your time discussing an issue instead of making simple minded attacks on others, you might actually get somewhere someday.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So pure communism as you advocate always has a bit of "capitalism" in it?

Straw man. Where have I ever advocated for communism?

If you would spend your time discussing an issue instead of making simple minded attacks on others, you might actually get somewhere someday.

I didn't pay attention to who I was responding to, I thought that argument was unter's argument.

 

[ZiprHead]

I suppose, if you consider being owned by the government to be privately owned, one could theoretically make that claim.



Corruption makes it not TRUE socialism?

Most enterprises were and are privately owned.

It is regulated capitalism.

Wikipedia lists 19 businesses owned by the Venezuelan government.

Government-owned companies of Venezuela

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Government-owned_companies_of_Venezuela

Interesting.

The US government owns 26 companies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Government-owned_companies_of_the_United_States

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I suppose, if you consider being owned by the government to be privately owned, one could theoretically make that claim.



Corruption makes it not TRUE socialism?

Corruption always has a bit of capitalism in it. "I, as a member of the government, have access to grant x resource/licensure/zoning/etc. I can grease the wheels for you if you pay me. Don't want to/can't pay me, you don't get shit."

Except it happens even more in communist systems.

 

[ZiprHead]

I suppose, if you consider being owned by the government to be privately owned, one could theoretically make that claim.



Corruption makes it not TRUE socialism?

Corruption always has a bit of capitalism in it. "I, as a member of the government, have access to grant x resource/licensure/zoning/etc. I can grease the wheels for you if you pay me. Don't want to/can't pay me, you don't get shit."

Except it happens even more in communist systems.

It's still capitalism, that's my point.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Except it happens even more in communist systems.

It's still capitalism, that's my point.

I don't see how it is capitalism when it happens in a communist system. It's simply corruption--and the more control the state has the more corruption flourishes.

 

[Elixir]

I don't see how it is capitalism when it happens in a communist system. It's simply corruption--

So capitalism=corruption when it happens within a communist system?
Seems to be the same animal, regardless of the nominal description of the government.

 

[ZiprHead]

Except it happens even more in communist systems.

It's still capitalism, that's my point.

I don't see how it is capitalism when it happens in a communist system. It's simply corruption--and the more control the state has the more corruption flourishes.

Somebody sells something for money. That's the very essence of capitalism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't see how it is capitalism when it happens in a communist system. It's simply corruption--and the more control the state has the more corruption flourishes.

Somebody sells something for money. That's the very essence of capitalism.

That's the fundamental aspect of trade.

 

[untermensche]

I don't see how it is capitalism when it happens in a communist system. It's simply corruption--and the more control the state has the more corruption flourishes.

Somebody sells something for money. That's the very essence of capitalism.

Not capitalism as it exists.

Capitalism as it exists is a bunch of protected dictatorships.

Some of these dictatorships are very powerful.

And the dictators within them have a lot of control over the politicians in the government.

While ordinary people have no influence.

It really is not far from a dictatorship in government. A dictatorship of wealth.

Capitalism in the US has created an oligarchy.

But that is only capitalism as it exists.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

And communism as it exists has an even worse track record.

 

[untermensche]

And communism as it exists has an even worse track record.

What you mean is: Totalitarian dictatorship calling itself Communism has a worse track record.

Communism was a slogan of dictators in the 20th Century. Only stupid Americans took the rhetoric seriously.

And today capitalists are the people singing the praises of dictators.

They call them Executives or Directors.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

And communism as it exists has an even worse track record.

What you mean is: Totalitarian dictatorship calling itself Communism has a worse track record.

Communism was a slogan of dictators in the 20th Century. Only stupid Americans took the rhetoric seriously.

And today capitalists are the people singing the praises of dictators.

They call them Executives or Directors.

You laid a trap for yourself and then walked right in to it. You know I call our current system corporatism and not capitalism, which is why you call it "capitalism as it exists." But if that is the case, all the failures of communism are "communism as it exists".

In every instance, communism as it exists is a dictatorship. Otherwise corporatism is as different from capitalism as those dictatorships are different from communism.