What liberals (still) get wrong about Trump's support

[EvoUK]

To try to drag the thread relatively back on topic, I was also thinking about the fake news meme and it's enthusiastic support by the trumpers.

As an example:

You are assuming a degree of competence and objectivity from the mainstream media that is not in evidence. The reason the liberal media is having a heck of a time shaking the "fake news" label is because it's accurate. The vast majority of their reporting on Trump is negative when you would expect organizations committed to the truth to be more in the 50/50 range of positive versus negative stories

[...]

For that matter, news stories shouldn't even be easily categorized as positive or negative. Rather, they should simply report the facts as completely as possible and dispense with the commentary and "analysis".

Is a 50/50 positive/negative reporting actually more truthful? The answer seems trivially obvious- no. If an administration or POTUS does things which are considered negative more often than they do things considered positive, then the news would reflect that.

However, you do have some outlets like CNN, with an over 90% negative report rating, so perhaps it's something.

Our own BBC has come under fire in the past for their dedication to non-biased reporting causing them to present two different views as though they were on an equal footing, when they categorically aren't. Obvious examples being climate change or Brexit, for example.

 

[untermensche]

"Small group of powerful people" <> "dictatorship"

Heck, any representational democracy or republic is in the hands of a small group of powerful people...

Wrong.

Small group with actual power.

Dictatorial power over others = dictatorship.

It is everywhere.

The people at the bottom can either leave or follow orders.

That is dictatorship.

 

[untermensche]

"Small group of powerful people" <> "dictatorship"

Heck, any representational democracy or republic is in the hands of a small group of powerful people...

I get the sense that Unter has never started, run or tried to grow a business. Reality is sure to descend upon anyone who tries any such endeavor.

I get the sense you put your arm in your ass and pull things like this out of it.

When the cretins cannot discuss ideas because that is too inconvenient they start hurling feces.

I sometimes wonder if he's ever managed to get out of bed and feed himself breakfast.

As we see again here from some lost ape incapable of defending dictatorship but singing it's praises.

As if in a spell.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I get the sense you put your arm in your ass and pull things like this out of it.

So have you ever looked in to starting a business? It is interesting, especially all the legal hoops you have to jump through.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I get the sense you put your arm in your ass and pull things like this out of it.

When the cretins cannot discuss ideas because that is too inconvenient they start hurling feces.

I sometimes wonder if he's ever managed to get out of bed and feed himself breakfast.

As we see again here from some lost ape incapable of defending dictatorship but singing it's praises.

As if in a spell.

In a true dictatorship, people aren't allowed to leave. In the American "dictatorship" people can leave, start a company competing against dictator, join a non-dictatorship company (ESOP, equal ownership company, and etc.), and criticize the dictators.

 

[untermensche]

Of course you can leave a dictatorship.

But for the ordinary working person you must either submit to a dictatorship or starve or go to jail.

Some call this freedom.

 

[ronburgundy]

If they decide they are going to pack up and use the resources current workers have created to move to some other country....guess what?

And if a worker decides to pack up and move and take the resources of skills and knowledge that company helped them create, they can do so.

By your use of the term, each individual is a dictator over themselves and their property. A capitalist (aka privately owned) business is just a self and personal property, and a corporation is (not a self) but a legal agreement among a groups of selves and their property.
You cannot get rid of capitalism without getting rid of peoples basic rights to over themselves and what they worked to create.
Government and regulatory laws are required to ensure that companies do not violate the individual and property rights (which contrary to pseudo-libertarian rhetoric also includes protecting shared rights over the "commons" and inherently shared resources like the environment). But you cannot have meaningful rights without the right to engage in free private enterprise within those limits. You can have democracy, but democracy has zero positive value without individual liberties. And any real democracy will lead to free private enterprise because, when conducted within the limits that protect the public welfare, it has inherent appeal and benefits to the majority of people. Thus, only a dictatorship that sets prohibitive rules that democratic will can never override would be absent of regulated capitalism.

 

[untermensche]

Companies mainly exploit skills. They rarely create them.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Of course you can leave a dictatorship.

But for the ordinary working person you must either submit to a dictatorship or starve or go to jail.

Some call this freedom.

So people who work for themselves, are consultants, their own boss, start their own company, or work in an ESOP are "extraordinary" people?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Of course you can leave a dictatorship.

But for the ordinary working person you must either submit to a dictatorship or starve or go to jail.

Some call this freedom.

So people who work for themselves, are consultants, their own boss, start their own company, or work in an ESOP are "extraordinary" people?

Not only that, they are simultaneously oppressor and oppressed, exploiter and exploited. That is pretty extraordinary.

 

[untermensche]

Of course you can leave a dictatorship.

But for the ordinary working person you must either submit to a dictatorship or starve or go to jail.

Some call this freedom.

So people who work for themselves, are consultants, their own boss, start their own company, or work in an ESOP are "extraordinary" people?

Anarchists are not that concerned with small individually owned businesses. They certainly have no problems with consultants that dictate over nobody.

Many of these small businesses are run somewhat democratically.

They are not a big problem.

The big dangers are the huge multi-nationals that are entangled with and control governments.

These are made possible because of acceptance of rigid dictatorial systems.

The Anarchists are against dictatorship.

That is all.

And it is why they are despised by dictators and dictator wanna-be's and suck ups to dictators.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Of course you can leave a dictatorship.

But for the ordinary working person you must either submit to a dictatorship or starve or go to jail.

Some call this freedom.

Once again, you show your ignorance of the world.

I've been in plenty of countries. Exit formalities in most are pretty trivial. (The US doesn't even have any exit formalities!) However, I have been behind the Iron Curtain--and there the exit formalities could be as complex as the entry ones. They weren't really that interested in some US citizens going out, but being sure that we really were US citizens and not their own citizens. (And when we crossed from East Berlin to West Berlin the officials on the west side saw our passports and waved us through without the passports ever leaving our hands. A US citizen didn't need a visa for West Germany, the fact that the East German guards let us out meant they were satisfied that those were really our passports. Thus the chances they would find some reason not to let us in were effectively zero--hence they didn't even look.)

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Of course you can leave a dictatorship.

But for the ordinary working person you must either submit to a dictatorship or starve or go to jail.

Some call this freedom.

So people who work for themselves, are consultants, their own boss, start their own company, or work in an ESOP are "extraordinary" people?

Anarchists are not that concerned with small individually owned businesses. They certainly have no problems with consultants that dictate over nobody.

Many of these small businesses are run somewhat democratically.

They are not a big problem.

The big dangers are the huge multi-nationals that are entangled with and control governments.

These are made possible because of acceptance of rigid dictatorial systems.

The Anarchists are against dictatorship.

That is all.

And it is why they are despised by dictators and dictator wanna-be's and suck ups to dictators.

So the only business you approve of is no larger than one person.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Of course you can leave a dictatorship.

But for the ordinary working person you must either submit to a dictatorship or starve or go to jail.

Some call this freedom.

So people who work for themselves, are consultants, their own boss, start their own company, or work in an ESOP are "extraordinary" people?

Not only that, they are simultaneously oppressor and oppressed, exploiter and exploited. That is pretty extraordinary.

Those of us in sole proprietorships aren't oppressors nor exploiters as we have nobody to oppress or exploit.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course you can leave a dictatorship.

But for the ordinary working person you must either submit to a dictatorship or starve or go to jail.

Some call this freedom.

So people who work for themselves, are consultants, their own boss, start their own company, or work in an ESOP are "extraordinary" people?

Anarchists are not that concerned with small individually owned businesses. They certainly have no problems with consultants that dictate over nobody.

Many of these small businesses are run somewhat democratically.

They are not a big problem.

The big dangers are the huge multi-nationals that are entangled with and control governments.

These are made possible because of acceptance of rigid dictatorial systems.

The Anarchists are against dictatorship.

That is all.

And it is why they are despised by dictators and dictator wanna-be's and suck ups to dictators.

The standard leftist position of not liking anything large other than government.

 

[untermensche]

Of course you can leave a dictatorship.

But for the ordinary working person you must either submit to a dictatorship or starve or go to jail.

Some call this freedom.

Once again, you show your ignorance of the world.

I've been in plenty of countries. Exit formalities in most are pretty trivial. (The US doesn't even have any exit formalities!) However, I have been behind the Iron Curtain--and there the exit formalities could be as complex as the entry ones. They weren't really that interested in some US citizens going out, but being sure that we really were US citizens and not their own citizens. (And when we crossed from East Berlin to West Berlin the officials on the west side saw our passports and waved us through without the passports ever leaving our hands. A US citizen didn't need a visa for West Germany, the fact that the East German guards let us out meant they were satisfied that those were really our passports. Thus the chances they would find some reason not to let us in were effectively zero--hence they didn't even look.)

You think it is easy to just leave a job in the US?

You are the one with severe ignorance of the real world.

- - - Updated - - -

Anarchists are not that concerned with small individually owned businesses. They certainly have no problems with consultants that dictate over nobody.

Many of these small businesses are run somewhat democratically.

They are not a big problem.

The big dangers are the huge multi-nationals that are entangled with and control governments.

These are made possible because of acceptance of rigid dictatorial systems.

The Anarchists are against dictatorship.

That is all.

And it is why they are despised by dictators and dictator wanna-be's and suck ups to dictators.

So the only business you approve of is no larger than one person.

?

You are lost in your religion.

This is about power structures.

Dictatorial power structures are opposed by Anarchists.

And loved by capitalists.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Not only that, they are simultaneously oppressor and oppressed, exploiter and exploited. That is pretty extraordinary.

Those of us in sole proprietorships aren't oppressors nor exploiters as we have nobody to oppress or exploit.

You didn't feel like you were exploiting yourself? But that messes up unter's understanding completely!

Back when I was unemployed I used to tell people I was self-employed. It sounded better. The problem is, the boss kept sexually harassing me and touching me in ways that made me feel very uncomfortable.

 

[scombrid]

The standard leftist position of not liking anything large other than government.

Seems the rightists like anything large enough to dominate the government these days.

"The Fertilizer Institute" sent our state attorney general to Washington to join a lawsuit to block implementation of the Chesapeake Bay Program.

Why would Florida care about the Chesapeake?

Mosaic. They mine phosphate here in FL. They and a handful of other huge ag companies don't want Bay agreement style regulations to invade the Mississippi basin. They collude on such matters behind their lobbies like The Fertilizer Institute and The Farm Bureau.

Meanwhile our state fresh, estuarine, and coastal gulf and ocean waters are suffocating under immense algae blooms.

The people are crying "where's our state government"?

Well dumbasses, you voted for them. But you probably did so because you fell for the Heartland Institute and Heritage Foundation propaganda that those huge multinationals pay for.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The standard leftist position of not liking anything large other than government.

Seems the rightists like anything large enough to dominate the government these days.

"The Fertilizer Institute" sent our state attorney general to Washington to join a lawsuit to block implementation of the Chesapeake Bay Program.

Why would Florida care about the Chesapeake?

Mosaic. They mine phosphate here in FL. They and a handful of other huge ag companies don't want Bay agreement style regulations to invade the Mississippi basin. They collude on such matters behind their lobbies like The Fertilizer Institute and The Farm Bureau.

Meanwhile our state fresh, estuarine, and coastal gulf and ocean waters are suffocating under immense algae blooms.

The people are crying "where's our state government"?

Well dumbasses, you voted for them. But you probably did so because you fell for the Heartland Institute and Heritage Foundation propaganda that those huge multinationals pay for.

Pointing out a problem with one side doesn't say the other is blameless. The right certainly is guilty of things like you're talking about although I'm not aware of the specific one.

 

[Emily Lake]

"Small group of powerful people" <> "dictatorship"

Heck, any representational democracy or republic is in the hands of a small group of powerful people...

Wrong.

Small group with actual power.

Dictatorial power over others = dictatorship.

It is everywhere.

The people at the bottom can either leave or follow orders.

That is dictatorship.

I suggest you go investigate what "dictatorship" already means, as opposed to coining your own special usage for an existing term.

 

[untermensche]

"Small group of powerful people" <> "dictatorship"

Heck, any representational democracy or republic is in the hands of a small group of powerful people...

Wrong.

Small group with actual power.

Dictatorial power over others = dictatorship.

It is everywhere.

The people at the bottom can either leave or follow orders.

That is dictatorship.

I suggest you go investigate what "dictatorship" already means, as opposed to coining your own special usage for an existing term.

I suggest you try to tell me how a rigid top down power structure is not a dictatorship.

You have been indoctrinated to somehow see dictatorial power structures as something besides dictatorships.

I am talking about the power structure.