What should Israel do?

[Lugubert]

So what you and jayjay are saying is once the pamphlets are dropped you gotta drop bombs? Israel's problem is that it is a criminal enterprise and needs reorganization before it can negotiate anything at all. As for the pamphlets, they dropped them and followed by bombardment of civilian populations....a crime against humanity.

The pamphlets told residents of northern Gaza to evacuate by noon on sunday. However I'm not aware of any bombing campaign since then. The problem is that if Israel drops pamphlets and then doesn't drop the bombs, nobody is going to believe the pamphlets next time. I'm not saying Israel has to drop bombs, but they shouldn't give empty warnings.

Could it be that the leaflets are meant to make people leave their homes, so that Israel can move in and claim that abandoned property belongs to the State? The Wall made many farming plots in practice inaccessible to the owners, and so the land was expropriated as abandoned.

 

[angelo]

Nothing changes except sometimes the names over time. This latest is a continuing saga of terrorism that can only cease when Arabs acknowledge Israel the right to exist. It was only after 1948 that the Arabs showed any interests in the region. The moment the Jewish state was declared it was attacked from all sides. They tried again three times to destroy it and got their arses kicked each time.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/a-blind-eye-to-hamas-atrocities/story-e6frg6zo-1225794831291 2009

& latest..............http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2014/07/08/hamas-war-crimes-provoke-response/

 

[bleubird]

"The population of Palestine grows more in a single day than have died in the current round of fighting"
Not sure what to make of this.
Palestinians breed faster than than they can be killed?

 

[Tigers!]

Nothing changes except sometimes the names over time. This latest is a continuing saga of terrorism that can only cease when Arabs acknowledge Israel the right to exist. It was only after 1948 that the Arabs showed any interests in the region. The moment the Jewish state was declared it was attacked from all sides. They tried again three times to destroy it and got their arses kicked each time.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/a-blind-eye-to-hamas-atrocities/story-e6frg6zo-1225794831291 2009

& latest..............http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2014/07/08/hamas-war-crimes-provoke-response/

Angelo
Don't expect anything prosaic as history to make much difference.

As noted earlier the problem is Israel's existence not it's borders.

 

[Tigers!]

Sorry. You're right, I forgot to mention purging Israel of long range weapons and extremists would be good for Israel, too. Also, treating the neighbors with respect and living within their internationally recognized borders.

Coming from the US who use drones indiscrimating that is a bit rich.

 

[angelo]

Nothing changes except sometimes the names over time. This latest is a continuing saga of terrorism that can only cease when Arabs acknowledge Israel the right to exist. It was only after 1948 that the Arabs showed any interests in the region. The moment the Jewish state was declared it was attacked from all sides. They tried again three times to destroy it and got their arses kicked each time.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/a-blind-eye-to-hamas-atrocities/story-e6frg6zo-1225794831291 2009

& latest..............http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2014/07/08/hamas-war-crimes-provoke-response/

Angelo
Don't expect anything prosaic as history to make much difference.

As noted earlier the problem is Israel's existence not it's borders.

Well, what a shame Hitler didn't finish the job hey!!! You do know that the dreaded Joows can trace back their history to that place for millennia?

 

[Tigers!]

Well, what a shame Hitler didn't finish the job hey!!! You do know that the dreaded Jews can trace back their history to that place for millennia?

Since I take the Bible seriously then yes the Jews can trace a connection back millennia.

 

[Sarpedon]

The way I see it, Israel went (maybe) irreversibly down the wrong road with the assassination of Rabin.

If you will recall, the assassin was a radical settler. However, there was no backlash against the settler movement because of this. The assassin and his co conspirators went to prison, but when Netanyahu came to power, he rewarded the settler movement extravagantly; giving them more money, and expanding settlements immensely. The assassin is considered to be a hero among the settlers, and some of his accomplices that have been released have received hero's welcomes.

In short, because the settlers profited so handsomely by murdering Israel's elected Prime Minister, there's no reason to think they wouldn't do it again.

When assassination becomes an acceptable (and the people of Israel did accept it, see below) part of the political dialogue, one can expect a lessening of quality of people in politics, and the leadership showing less courage to propose changes. And, indeed, this has clearly happened.

Why was there no backlash against the settlers? Why did the people of Israel not object strenuously to the murder of their leader? I think that more than anything, Israelis fear civil war. The theory that built Israel was that Jews had such a distinct identity, that all they had to do was get in one place and they'd be a nation. In reality, Jewish groups from far flung corners of the world had little in common, and Israel today is a country divided by factionalism, and only the illusion of solidarity holds the country together. When the settlers demonstrated that they were willing to murder their fellow Jews for the sake of their political beliefs, the others had to make a decision;go along with it and preserve the illusion, or go down the road of Civil War.

This choice has led to the dominance of the right wing in Israel's politics, with Netanyahu being the dominant post-Rabin figure. He has built his career on trying to build an Israeli identity based on fear of the Other (Palestinians, Iranians, Europeans, even Americans, as it suits his purposes) and by strengthening the dominance of the Orthodox faction(s). Part of this has included deliberately antagonizing outside forces, even ones that would normally be friendly to Israel, all to strengthen the siege mentality that lies at the core of his political agenda.

It rather puts me to mind of Israel's situation nearly 2000 years ago: riven by factionalism, one faction, the Zealots, decided that in order to unite Israel behind them, they should start a war. Unfortunately, in their racist fanaticism, they failed to realize that Rome was not the sort of country you fight a wag-the-dog sort of war against.

Israel's course of action is clear: They need to do what they should have done after Rabin was murdered: Condemn his murderers and treat them like the terrorists that they are. The settlers are the authors of all of Israel's internal woes.

Israel united is strong enough to resist any outside threat. The Palestinians are no threat to them, the idea that they are is Netanyahu's propaganda.

Israel must do what it can to strengthen the PA, rather than undermine it, which has been Netanyahu's life's work. Hamas is a threat only because Israel has done so much to undermine its only competitors. Anyone who thinks Netanyahu wants peace is a fool; he has built his career on beligerance. When the times are peaceful, people have nothing to do but to talk about how corrupt he is. Read Israel's papers. It reminds me of what Mao used to say about Matsu and Quemoy islands: "They are wonderful, I'm never going to take them over. Whenever I want an international incident, all I have to do is shell them."

In summary: Get rid of netanyahu, suppress the settler faction, and strengthen the PA. All of Israel's external problems grow out of their internal divisions. As Kissinger said forty years ago: "Israel has no foreign policy, it only has a domestic policy." This is still true today.

 

[Derec]

"The population of Palestine grows more in a single day than have died in the current round of fighting"
Not sure what to make of this.
Palestinians breed faster than than they can be killed?

Pro-palestinians often blame Israel for 1.6 million Palestinians living in the overcrowded Gaza Strip. But in 1980 less than half a a million lived there, and in mid-1990s the population crossed the million mark. That is a huge population explosion! Gazan women still have an average of more than 4 children born to each of them and a birth rate of 32/1000 per year compared to a death rate of only 3/1000 per year (so much for bogus claims of "genocide"!) When the media talk about families affected by the fighting many are huge, Duggaresque ones. Obviously that population growth rate is completely unsustainable.

 

[Jayjay]

The question not answered here is this. Is Hamas a terrorist organisation or is it not? What about Hezbolah? I8s that a terrorist outfit or is it not?

Sure, they are terrorist organizations. Hamas moreso than Hezbollah. But it's a lsiding scale, and both organizations are also engaged in other activities besides terrorism.

Is the present Israeli government not a democratically elected government elected to protect it's citizens?

The operative phrase here is "citizens". The fact is that Israel, with population of about 8 million citizens, is also host to about 4 million non-citizens that have severely limited rights and no path to citizenship. As a thought experiment, if United States did not have citizenship rights for anyone except White people of European descent (about 63% of the US population), could it still be called a democracy?

For that idiot that claims Israel is an apartheid state you are talking out of your arse. You wouldn't know apartheid if it bit you on the arse.
Go for a walk in down town Tel Aviv and watch Arabs and Jews doing business together in the shops and restaurants.

Why Tel Aviv? Why not East Jerusalem or West Bank settlements? Are these not part of Israeli state?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) The two are not incompatible.

2) Repeating this propaganda ad nauseum won't make it true.

I'd say that what makes it true is that if you're a Palestinian who happens to live in the West Bank, your property can be seized and handed over to Jewish settlers and you have no recourse whatsoever. For all intents and purposes the state of Israel treats land upon which Palestinians are living to be Israeli property, and when the presence of Palestinians on that property becomes a problem, they are evicted and the land is given to Jewish settlers.

Got actual evidence of this happening, other than cases where Jews are reclaiming property that was seized by the Palestinians in 48?

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"The population of Palestine grows more in a single day than have died in the current round of fighting"
Not sure what to make of this.
Palestinians breed faster than than they can be killed?

The point is that if it's attempted genocide it's incredibly ineffective.

Furthermore, Israel is averaging 1 dead for every 10 bombs dropped--most are doing nothing but killing rockets and whatever they were housed in.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The way I see it, Israel went (maybe) irreversibly down the wrong road with the assassination of Rabin.

Nothing Israel has done matters in the big picture.

The fundamental conflict is about the existence of Israel, anything about specific acts are red herrings.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Become the secular Republic of Israel and Palestine, with the right of return for Jews and Palestinians.

 

[Derec]

Become the secular Republic of Israel and Palestine, with the right of return for Jews and Palestinians.

That would be suicidal. Imagine what Hamas would do if they could lord it over the now minority Jewish population?

Three state solution I think is the only viable option right now. Kind of like India where Muslim (they really do keep creating problems wherever they are!) areas became Pakistan and Bangladesh.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Become the secular Republic of Israel and Palestine, with the right of return for Jews and Palestinians.

That would be suicide.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

What is the truth about the settlements? All I hear on this seems to be propaganda from one side or the other. What is the truth? Is Israel really letting Jews build housing complexes in land designated as Palestinian, and then defending those Jews?

 

[Sarpedon]

Nothing Israel has done matters in the big picture.

The fundamental conflict is about the existence of Israel, anything about specific acts are red herrings.

Nothing that Israel has done has had an effect on the big picture, because Israel's internal political problems has kept it from having any sort of effective foreign policy.

When israeli politicians lurch from the peace table to the war room based entirely on who is pressuring them more strongly at the particular moment, it completely prevents them from taking any sort of effective action of any kind. The utter helplessness of Israel's politicians in the face of its factions has fed the false idea that Israel is, itself, helpless in the face of a hateful world.

You have bought the right wing idea that Israel is alone against a hostile world hook, line and sinker. The fact is that Israel was established with the help of the United States, Britain, France, and the Soviet Union. It has received enormous help from these nations, as well as other countries, including Canada, Italy, Germany and Turkey. Its international position has deteriorated because of its ridiculously racist policies, not because of some imaginary worldwide anti-semitic conspiracy.

Yitzak Rabin was murdered because he wouldn't accept that lie, and said so before all the Knesset. I simply can't ignore the fact that the Palestinian terrorists who are supposedly a mortal threat to Israel can do nothing but launch badly aimed and easily intercepted rockets, while Jewish terrorists can assassinate a prime minister, derail all of his policies, and hold the entire government hostage. I'm supposed to believe that its the Palestinians who are at fault?

Israel can't and won't change anything, for the simple fact that if a Prime Minister tried to change its policies, he or she would get murdered just like Rabin.

Israel has already surrendered to terrorists. Just not Palestinian terrorists.

 

[prideandfall]

Got actual evidence of this happening, other than cases where Jews are reclaiming property that was seized by the Palestinians in 48?

so let me get this straight...
by this argument, if the "original owner" of some land up and decides "hey, fuck you, i'm taking this back now" nearly 70 (or more?) years later, the people living on that land now and who had absolutely fuck-all to do with the dispute 70 years ago, are the bad guys?

so... you're saying that if all the current native american tribes in the US teamed up with mexico to reclaim the southern half of the US, you'd totally consider the residents of the southern US to be sub-human animals worthy of extinction, for occupying the lands owned by others previously?

that's pretty gods damned fucktarded, even by your standards of "logic" when it comes israel.

 

[Ford]

Got actual evidence of this happening, other than cases where Jews are reclaiming property that was seized by the Palestinians in 48?

so let me get this straight...
by this argument, if the "original owner" of some land...

Near as I can tell, Loren thinks any land within the confines of whatever happens to be Israel at the moment (or may become part of Israel eventually) is, was, and has always been Israeli property. So if some Palestinian farmer in the West Bank has his fields plowed under in order to build a settlement, well that was Israeli land to begin with, so it is the Palestinian who is in the wrong.

In Loren's view, the Palestinian is always in the wrong, and Israel is always in the right.

Of course, Israel itself doesn't completely agree.

https://www.afsc.org/resource/israel%E2%80%99s-settlement-policy-occupied-palestinian-territory

In addition to official settlements there are approximately 100 “outpost” settlements located throughout the West Bank. These communities are built without official approval from the Israeli government, but with financial support from Israeli government ministries and agencies. Although even the Israeli government recognizes these communities as illegal, it provides most "outposts” with state funded protection and access to water, electricity, and other basic services. Together, settlements and outposts control approximately 42% of the total land area of the West Bank.

Why would the Israeli government recognize these settlements as illegal, if as Loren suggests all the land was stolen from Jews in the first place? Odd.

Granted, the source here is questionable, as it comes from a radical pro-terrorist organization known as the "Quakers" (must be a Arabic word of some sort), but that aside it does provide an example of Palestinian land being stolen in order to build a settlement:

Prior to 1996, Jabal Abu Ghneim (Abu Ghneim Hill) was a forested oasis and a popular picnic destination for Palestinian families from Bethlehem and its surrounding villages. In 1996 Israel began constructing the settlement of Har Homa on Jabal Abu Ghneim, and soon thereafter all of the trees that had covered the hill were gone and Palestinians were banned from entering the area. Today, approximately 15,000 Jewish Israeli settlers live in Har Homa. The settlement serves as a buffer for Israel, cutting off Palestinian east Jerusalem from Bethlehem and the West Bank and, if connected to other Jerusalem area settlements such as Gilo and Ma’aleh Adumim, effectively severing the northern and southern West Bank. Although Har Homa did not exist in 1993 when the Oslo Accords were signed, during past negotiations Israel has demanded that this area be ceded to it and this demand (which Palestinians have refused) has become one of the major issues blocking a peace agreement.

Obviously, all those trees were terrorist trees, and banning the Palestinians from that hill was done purely for their protection.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nothing Israel has done matters in the big picture.

The fundamental conflict is about the existence of Israel, anything about specific acts are red herrings.

Nothing that Israel has done has had an effect on the big picture, because Israel's internal political problems has kept it from having any sort of effective foreign policy.

There's nothing reasonable they could do that would bring peace.

Peace through victory would require a nuclear laydown on Iran, perhaps elsewhere in the Middle East.

Peace through concession would require Israel cease to exist. The Jews would flee or die.

You have bought the right wing idea that Israel is alone against a hostile world hook, line and sinker. The fact is that Israel was established with the help of the United States, Britain, France, and the Soviet Union. It has received enormous help from these nations, as well as other countries, including Canada, Italy, Germany and Turkey. Its international position has deteriorated because of its ridiculously racist policies, not because of some imaginary worldwide anti-semitic conspiracy.

The world was shocked by the Holocaust and provided a lot of help back then--but even then Britain backed down. The memories are fading, the world is going back to Jew-hatred.

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Got actual evidence of this happening, other than cases where Jews are reclaiming property that was seized by the Palestinians in 48?

so let me get this straight...
by this argument, if the "original owner" of some land up and decides "hey, fuck you, i'm taking this back now" nearly 70 (or more?) years later, the people living on that land now and who had absolutely fuck-all to do with the dispute 70 years ago, are the bad guys?

so... you're saying that if all the current native american tribes in the US teamed up with mexico to reclaim the southern half of the US, you'd totally consider the residents of the southern US to be sub-human animals worthy of extinction, for occupying the lands owned by others previously?

that's pretty gods damned fucktarded, even by your standards of "logic" when it comes israel.

We are talking about people reclaiming their own property, not ancestors property. I don't know why they didn't do it in the 70s.