What should Israel do?

[Ford]

.

Peace through victory would require a nuclear laydown on Iran, perhaps elsewhere in the Middle East.

Peace through concession would require Israel cease to exist. The Jews would flee or die.

So that's it then. Israel uses their nuclear arsenal to wipe out Iran and any other nation that threatens them, and you're fine with that because in your mind anything less would threaten the continued existence of Jews.

 

[Arctish]

.

Peace through victory would require a nuclear laydown on Iran, perhaps elsewhere in the Middle East.

Peace through concession would require Israel cease to exist. The Jews would flee or die.

So that's it then. Israel uses their nuclear arsenal to wipe out Iran and any other nation that threatens them, and you're fine with that because in your mind anything less would threaten the continued existence of Jews.

Not quite.

The choice Loren presents is either a nuclear holocaust unleashed on the Iranians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, etc. or Israeli Jews have to move someplace else. He completely ignores any option that involves fair dealing and respecting non-jews as much as Jews. His argument is based on the notion that it is better to slaughter tens of millions of people in the Middle East than to have a few million Israeli Jews move to the US, Canada, Australia, etc. or go back home to Europe, but Jews are too inherently nice do what's necessary so the only real option Israel has is endless war.

 

[Tigers!]

It rather puts me to mind of Israel's situation nearly 2000 years ago: riven by factionalism, one faction, the Zealots, decided that in order to unite Israel behind them, they should start a war. Unfortunately, in their racist fanaticism, they failed to realize that Rome was not the sort of country you fight a wag-the-dog sort of war against.

So you for one acknowledge that the Jews have a legitimate claim on the land based upon long term settlement?
Thanks good to hear.

 

[Sarpedon]

Ummm, no, I merely acknowledged that Jews lived there two thousand years ago, which no one disputes. I fully acknowledge the right of modern israel to exist within the internationally recognized borders.

Just think: What if every country were allowed to look into its past, find a point in its history it likes, and declare that that period represents its 'natural' borders based on 'long term settlement?' Of course, no one suggests that EVERY nation be allowed to do this, only Israel, because Israel is special.

Then there is the sticking point that Israeli extremists claim territory based on the supposed borders of the Kingdom of David and Solomon, and yet, despite 70 years of feverish digging, archaelogists have utterly failed to find any evidence that these were real personages.

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't make unwarranted conclusions off unrelated evidence. Its very hard to take someone who uses such frankly dishonest argumentation tactics seriously.

 

[Harry Bosch]

According to CNN, Israel accepted Egypt's peace proposal, Hamas did not. I do agree with Jay that Israel should work with the PA more, they should work with Palestinians who want peace. But there's little chance that Hamas will ever concede anything. No peace is possible with them.

 

[Sarpedon]

I agree with that. Fuck Hamas.

If Israel would have openly allied with the PA against Hamas, we'd be in a different situation. Israel's inability to form a coherent policy, combined with the domination of the settler faction, made Israel the common enemy to both factions, causing them to try to mend their differences. After the fall of Morsi, there was a golden opportunity for a joint Israeli, PA, and Egyptian housecleaning against Hamas. Too bad there was no one in Israel or the PA to show leadership.

 

[Jayjay]

According to CNN, Israel accepted Egypt's peace proposal, Hamas did not.

Hamas rejected a ceasefire proposal, because they want to get concessions apart from ending the shooting war. It is a bit misleading to even call it "Egypt's peace proposal" when the entire substance of it is "let's just stop shooting". Which both parties are capable of doing even without mediation.

It looks like Hamas is feeling pretty confident about itself. It's dug in deeply enough and is betting on Israel not willing to plow through thousands of civilians to get to it, and to me this seems like a realistic assessment.

 

[Derec]

Hamas rejected a ceasefire proposal, because they want to get concessions apart from ending the shooting war. It is a bit misleading to even call it "Egypt's peace proposal" when the entire substance of it is "let's just stop shooting". Which both parties are capable of doing even without mediation.

Israel did stop shooting to give Hamas the change to do the same. Instead, Hamas shot 50 rockets at Israel during the 6 hours of unilateral Israeli ceasefire.
Hamas is not in the position to demand concessions like having Hamas terrorists released from prison because it is their fighters who are dying and their leaders who find themselves homeless. In fact, Israel should demand Hamas hand over the remaining rockets (should be ~8000 now) and drones as a condition of any lasting truce.

It looks like Hamas is feeling pretty confident about itself. It's dug in deeply enough and is betting on Israel not willing to plow through thousands of civilians to get to it, and to me this seems like a realistic assessment.

Hamas is solely responsible for civilian casualties in this conflict as they use civilians as human shields. That is obvious to everybody except the far Left who find fault with Israel no matter what.
Bibi Netanyahu hit the nail on the head: "Here’s the difference between us, we’re using missile defense to protect our civilians, and they’re using their civilians to protect their missiles."

 

[Jayjay]

Israel did stop shooting to give Hamas the change to do the same. Instead, Hamas shot 50 rockets at Israel during the 6 hours of unilateral Israeli ceasefire.

Indeed, which was my point exactly: there's no need for outside mediation to get a ceasefire.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Israel did stop shooting to give Hamas the change to do the same. Instead, Hamas shot 50 rockets at Israel during the 6 hours of unilateral Israeli ceasefire. Hamas is not in the position to demand concessions like having Hamas terrorists released from prison because it is their fighters who are dying and their leaders who find themselves homeless. In fact, Israel should demand Hamas hand over the remaining rockets (should be ~8000 now) and drones as a condition of any lasting truce. Hamas is solely responsible for civilian casualties in this conflict as they use civilians as human shields. That is obvious to everybody except the far Left who find fault with Israel no matter what. Bibi Netanyahu hit the nail on the head: "Here’s the difference between us, we’re using missile defense to protect our civilians, and they’re using their civilians to protect their missiles."

Wow, that is a great quote.

 

[Derec]

Israel did stop shooting to give Hamas the change to do the same. Instead, Hamas shot 50 rockets at Israel during the 6 hours of unilateral Israeli ceasefire.

Indeed, which was my point exactly: there's no need for outside mediation to get a ceasefire.

Except that they did it as part of the Egypt-brokered cease fire proposal and not randomly.

 

[Jayjay]

Indeed, which was my point exactly: there's no need for outside mediation to get a ceasefire.

Except that they did it as part of the Egypt-brokered cease fire proposal and not randomly.

What difference does it make that Egypt proposed it? I could propose a ceasefire, there wouldn't be headlines about Hamas rejecting my proposal either. If anything, this tells more about Egypt trying to play the "mediator" to prop its own relevance in the region.

Fact is, Hamas does not want an unconditional ceasefire because they think they can hold it out long enough to get some concessions, or force Israel to fight on the ground (which would mean at least some IDF casualties).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

.

Peace through victory would require a nuclear laydown on Iran, perhaps elsewhere in the Middle East.

Peace through concession would require Israel cease to exist. The Jews would flee or die.

So that's it then. Israel uses their nuclear arsenal to wipe out Iran and any other nation that threatens them, and you're fine with that because in your mind anything less would threaten the continued existence of Jews.

I consider the status quo to be far superior to either option that would end the war. You're being mislead by the notion of peace at any price.

- - - Updated - - -

So that's it then. Israel uses their nuclear arsenal to wipe out Iran and any other nation that threatens them, and you're fine with that because in your mind anything less would threaten the continued existence of Jews.

Not quite.

The choice Loren presents is either a nuclear holocaust unleashed on the Iranians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, etc. or Israeli Jews have to move someplace else. He completely ignores any option that involves fair dealing and respecting non-jews as much as Jews. His argument is based on the notion that it is better to slaughter tens of millions of people in the Middle East than to have a few million Israeli Jews move to the US, Canada, Australia, etc. or go back home to Europe, but Jews are too inherently nice do what's necessary so the only real option Israel has is endless war.

I ignore those options because they won't work.

How Israel treats the Palestinians has nothing to do with the war. It's the Islamist money that's driving it. Throw enough money at it and you *WILL* get terrorism. Cease throwing money at it and terrorism withers away unless it can self-finance (ie, FARC controlling narco-dollars.)

- - - Updated - - -

According to CNN, Israel accepted Egypt's peace proposal, Hamas did not. I do agree with Jay that Israel should work with the PA more, they should work with Palestinians who want peace. But there's little chance that Hamas will ever concede anything. No peace is possible with them.

Yeah, Hamas is holding out for concessions.

And the bleeding hearts on here will say Israel should make them. Never mind that that just sets the stage for another war. Not budging an inch will mean the current spat lasts longer but it makes future spats less likely.

 

[Arctish]

Yeah, Hamas is holding out for concessions.

And the bleeding hearts on here will say Israel should make them. Never mind that that just sets the stage for another war. Not budging an inch will mean the current spat lasts longer but it makes future spats less likely.

I haven't seen anyone here say Israel should make concessions to Hamas.

I have seen people say Israel should work with Abbas. It's a matter of practicality. Abbas is the first Palestinian leader on a good long time to forego armed resistance in favor of diplomacy. If he's not successful in bringing about something good for his constituents, he'll likely be replaced by someone less diplomatic and more belligerent.

 

[bilby]

What should Israel do? Move to the Americas.

Buy an Israel sized (or slightly larger) chunk of desert and semi desert land in the Arizona, Nevada, Utah region - perhaps buy some bits of Chihuahua and/or Sonora from Mexico too - and relocate the entire state of Israel to the new homeland, lock, stock and barrel.

The people in that part of the world are much less inclined to be mean to them than the Palestinians are; and the Palestinians can't afford to move, so let them keep the current state of Israel.

There is nothing special about that bit of dirt; it is pointless to bicker over it. The USA support the existence of the Israeli state; so let them host the thing.

 

[Derec]

What should Israel do? Move to the Americas.

Let Palestinians move to Saudi Arabia instead. Let Israelis keep the historic Israel and let Arabs move to Arabian homeland, which is the Arabian peninsula (hence the name). Plenty of space there.
I am sure Israel would subsidize the one-way tickets.

 

[Ford]

Let Palestinians move to Saudi Arabia instead. Let Israelis keep the historic Israel and let Arabs move to Arabian homeland, which is the Arabian peninsula (hence the name). Plenty of space there.

This is without a doubt the most idiotic thing you've ever posted, Derec, and that is saying quite a lot.

 

[bilby]

What should Israel do? Move to the Americas.

Let Palestinians move to Saudi Arabia instead. Let Israelis keep the historic Israel and let Arabs move to Arabian homeland, which is the Arabian peninsula (hence the name). Plenty of space there.
I am sure Israel would subsidize the one-way tickets.

Fine, if someone will pay the bills, why not?

When neighbouring families cannot get along, and both families suffer as a result, the solution is for one or both to move elsewhere.

So why not just fucking do it? Move both groups out, and sow the ground with salt so no bastard can live there, if that's what it takes.

I couldn't care less who is right or who is wrong; neither side deserves shit; both sides behave like shit, and if they can't play nice, then they need to be separated.

There is nothing special about that scrap of semi-desert that makes the loss of a single life worthwhile.

 

[Jayjay]

Israel should strike a deal with Egypt to allow refugee camps in Israel and/or Sinai. This way civilians have somewhere to go while Gaza is bombed. The fact that they are boxed in is one of the reasons that makes it worse than most conflicts.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I couldn't care less who is right or who is wrong; neither side deserves shit; both sides behave like shit, and if they can't play nice, then they need to be separated.

There is nothing special about that scrap of semi-desert that makes the loss of a single life worthwhile.

I agree. They have been bickering and hogging the international spotlight far too long. I say give them 5 more years to find a way to get along, or relocate both of them and put an end to that bit of land for good.