What should Israel do?

[angelo]

According to CNN, Israel accepted Egypt's peace proposal, Hamas did not. I do agree with Jay that Israel should work with the PA more, they should work with Palestinians who want peace. But there's little chance that Hamas will ever concede anything. No peace is possible with them.

You can't negotiate with a group who is sworn to destroy you.

 

[angelo]

What should Israel do? Move to the Americas.

Buy an Israel sized (or slightly larger) chunk of desert and semi desert land in the Arizona, Nevada, Utah region - perhaps buy some bits of Chihuahua and/or Sonora from Mexico too - and relocate the entire state of Israel to the new homeland, lock, stock and barrel.

The people in that part of the world are much less inclined to be mean to them than the Palestinians are; and the Palestinians can't afford to move, so let them keep the current state of Israel.

There is nothing special about that bit of dirt; it is pointless to bicker over it. The USA support the existence of the Israeli state; so let them host the thing.

If that were to happen, the Palestinians would then start fighting each other. Tribal wars would reign supreme. Only the naive or those locked in a left wing time warp would think that Arabs would live in peace with each other.

 

[bilby]

What should Israel do? Move to the Americas.

Buy an Israel sized (or slightly larger) chunk of desert and semi desert land in the Arizona, Nevada, Utah region - perhaps buy some bits of Chihuahua and/or Sonora from Mexico too - and relocate the entire state of Israel to the new homeland, lock, stock and barrel.

The people in that part of the world are much less inclined to be mean to them than the Palestinians are; and the Palestinians can't afford to move, so let them keep the current state of Israel.

There is nothing special about that bit of dirt; it is pointless to bicker over it. The USA support the existence of the Israeli state; so let them host the thing.

If that were to happen, the Palestinians would then start fighting each other. Tribal wars would reign supreme. Only the naive or those locked in a left wing time warp would think that Arabs would live in peace with each other.

So fucking what? The Israelis don't give a fuck what happens to them; Israelis would be out of range of their rockets, and it becomes the Palestinians' problem whether they can live in peace or not.

If your neighbours want to harm you, step out of range. Why the hell do you care if the arseholes fight amongst themselves or not, once you are gone?

 

[untermensche]

According to CNN, Israel accepted Egypt's peace proposal, Hamas did not. I do agree with Jay that Israel should work with the PA more, they should work with Palestinians who want peace. But there's little chance that Hamas will ever concede anything. No peace is possible with them.

You can't negotiate with a group who is sworn to destroy you.

This is a matter for the UN.

Get the US out of it, stop protecting Israel from the condemnation of the whole world, and force them to the table.

Israel is a wrongdoer here. It doesn't get much of a say. What it has to do is stop committing crimes. That is how it proves it is worthy to exist.

Gaza's Torment, Israel's Crimes, Our Responsibilities

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/24931-gazas-torment-israels-crimes-our-responsibilities

 

[angelo]

You can't negotiate with a group who is sworn to destroy you.

This is a matter for the UN.

Get the US out of it, stop protecting Israel from the condemnation of the whole world, and force them to the table.

Israel is a wrongdoer here. It doesn't get much of a say. What it has to do is stop committing crimes. That is how it proves it is worthy to exist.

Gaza's Torment, Israel's Crimes, Our Responsibilities

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/24931-gazas-torment-israels-crimes-our-responsibilities

Better still. Russia, the US and Britain make Israel disarm and leave them at the mercy of the Arabs and then sit back and watch the genocide.

 

[angelo]

You can't negotiate with a group who is sworn to destroy you.

This is a matter for the UN.

Get the US out of it, stop protecting Israel from the condemnation of the whole world, and force them to the table.

Israel is a wrongdoer here. It doesn't get much of a say. What it has to do is stop committing crimes. That is how it proves it is worthy to exist.

Gaza's Torment, Israel's Crimes, Our Responsibilities

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/24931-gazas-torment-israels-crimes-our-responsibilities

Fuck me dead! Quoting the nut job Noam Chomksy, That's a good one.

 

[Derec]

This is without a doubt the most idiotic thing you've ever posted, Derec, and that is saying quite a lot.

It's a much more sensible plan than bilby's idea to move all Israelis to Nevada after they spent 60+ years building a developed country in the desert already. And besides, Israelis have a historical connection to Israel just like Arabs have a historical connection to Arabia.

 

[Derec]

This is a matter for the UN.

The UN is biased, because it is dominated by Muslim countries and their useful idiots.

Get the US out of it, stop protecting Israel from the condemnation of the whole world, and force them to the table.

Why is ok for many countries to be 100% supportive of Palestinians but not ok for a single country to be even 60-70% for Israel like the US is?

Israel is a wrongdoer here. It doesn't get much of a say. What it has to do is stop committing crimes. That is how it proves it is worthy to exist.

Wrong. It is Hamas and other terrorist scum that are in the wrong here and there won't be peace until they are eliminated. There needs to be a total victory, not ceaseless ceasefires that only enable Hamas et al to regroup and rearm.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, Hamas is holding out for concessions.

And the bleeding hearts on here will say Israel should make them. Never mind that that just sets the stage for another war. Not budging an inch will mean the current spat lasts longer but it makes future spats less likely.

I haven't seen anyone here say Israel should make concessions to Hamas.

They say Israel should do what's needed to make peace. That's indirectly a call for concessions.

I have seen people say Israel should work with Abbas. It's a matter of practicality. Abbas is the first Palestinian leader on a good long time to forego armed resistance in favor of diplomacy. If he's not successful in bringing about something good for his constituents, he'll likely be replaced by someone less diplomatic and more belligerent.

Fatah is firing rockets also.

- - - Updated - - -

Let Palestinians move to Saudi Arabia instead. Let Israelis keep the historic Israel and let Arabs move to Arabian homeland, which is the Arabian peninsula (hence the name). Plenty of space there.
I am sure Israel would subsidize the one-way tickets.

Fine, if someone will pay the bills, why not?

When neighbouring families cannot get along, and both families suffer as a result, the solution is for one or both to move elsewhere.

So why not just fucking do it? Move both groups out, and sow the ground with salt so no bastard can live there, if that's what it takes.

I couldn't care less who is right or who is wrong; neither side deserves shit; both sides behave like shit, and if they can't play nice, then they need to be separated.

There is nothing special about that scrap of semi-desert that makes the loss of a single life worthwhile.

So you say the Palestinians should be rewarded for their terrorism by being given victory?

 

[Jayjay]

So you say the Palestinians should be rewarded for their terrorism by being given victory?

Are you saying Israel should be rewarded for the same? Again?

 

[bleubird]

fuck them all.



do the same than over and over
and expect a different out com.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So you say the Palestinians should be rewarded for their terrorism by being given victory?

Are you saying Israel should be rewarded for the same? Again?

Hamas picked this fight.

 

[untermensche]

This is a matter for the UN.

Get the US out of it, stop protecting Israel from the condemnation of the whole world, and force them to the table.

Israel is a wrongdoer here. It doesn't get much of a say. What it has to do is stop committing crimes. That is how it proves it is worthy to exist.

Gaza's Torment, Israel's Crimes, Our Responsibilities

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/24931-gazas-torment-israels-crimes-our-responsibilities

Fuck me dead! Quoting the nut job Noam Chomksy, That's a good one.

Chomsky is a sober and reasonable voice with expertise on the matter.

He only sounds nutty to irrational supporters of Israeli oppression.

 

[untermensche]

The UN is biased, because it is dominated by Muslim countries and their useful idiots.

The whole world versus the US and Israel is hardly a sign of bias.

There is a consensus across the whole world that the Palestinians deserve a sovereign nation of their own. The starting point for this would be UN resolutions.

And there is also a consensus that Israel and the US are blocking this from happening.

Get the US out of it, stop protecting Israel from the condemnation of the whole world, and force them to the table.

Why is ok for many countries to be 100% supportive of Palestinians but not ok for a single country to be even 60-70% for Israel like the US is?

The US has single-highhandedly blocked the UN from taking any productive action on this matter.

This unending oppression and denial of rights exists only because the US allows it to continue.

Israel is a wrongdoer here. It doesn't get much of a say. What it has to do is stop committing crimes. That is how it proves it is worthy to exist.

Wrong. It is Hamas and other terrorist scum that are in the wrong here and there won't be peace until they are eliminated. There needs to be a total victory, not ceaseless ceasefires that only enable Hamas et al to regroup and rearm.

Hamas has every right to attack people that are oppressing them. Just as anybody has the right to resist oppression.

If there was no oppression and the Palestinians had their own sovereign nation then attacks against Israel would be immoral.

 

[bilby]

I haven't seen anyone here say Israel should make concessions to Hamas.

They say Israel should do what's needed to make peace. That's indirectly a call for concessions.

I have seen people say Israel should work with Abbas. It's a matter of practicality. Abbas is the first Palestinian leader on a good long time to forego armed resistance in favor of diplomacy. If he's not successful in bringing about something good for his constituents, he'll likely be replaced by someone less diplomatic and more belligerent.

Fatah is firing rockets also.

- - - Updated - - -

Let Palestinians move to Saudi Arabia instead. Let Israelis keep the historic Israel and let Arabs move to Arabian homeland, which is the Arabian peninsula (hence the name). Plenty of space there.
I am sure Israel would subsidize the one-way tickets.

Fine, if someone will pay the bills, why not?

When neighbouring families cannot get along, and both families suffer as a result, the solution is for one or both to move elsewhere.

So why not just fucking do it? Move both groups out, and sow the ground with salt so no bastard can live there, if that's what it takes.

I couldn't care less who is right or who is wrong; neither side deserves shit; both sides behave like shit, and if they can't play nice, then they need to be separated.

There is nothing special about that scrap of semi-desert that makes the loss of a single life worthwhile.

So you say the Palestinians should be rewarded for their terrorism by being given victory?

Seriously?

That's what you read in to my suggestion?

Fucking hell.

Nobody, on either side, is EVER going to win.

The best option available is for both sides to stop losing; and even that seems like a remote prospect.

What kind of sick, twisted moronic fuckwit do you need to be to see your enemy being driven from the land, never to return, as 'rewarding them with victory'??

Perhaps the solution to all of this is to ban people with a mental age below five years from having any input.

Anybody who thinks one side is in any way better (or worse) than the other needs to sit down, shut up, and let the adults do the talking.

The whole situation is only distinguishable from kids bickering on the back seat during a long car ride by the fact that the kids in this case are heavily armed. I don't CARE who started it; if you don't stop it, right now, I will be turning this car around, and there will be no Promised Land for anybody.

 

[Turambar]

I think we need to take a sober yet cynical approach to this discussion. We say things that are simply too exaggerated.

"It is a genocide": No it is not, if it was a genocide the death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands. So please stop using that word, specially when talking about a nation that was born out of a real genocide. But is it an overreaction on Israel's side? Yes, as someone pointed out the death toll so far in Israel is single digit, with triple digits in the Palestinian territories. It is an asymmetric military conflict with lots of collateral damage amongst innocent civilians, but certainly not a genocide.

"War will never solve this" said many on this thread. More accurately "modern military actions will not solve this". I think that “war” (as it was understood by most of the western nations prior to the two world wars of the last century) would have solved this a long time ago. Read your history books, the Mongol Expansion of the 13th century and the Native American Wars of the 19th century are just some examples of how "all out war" really did "solve" lots of problems, for the winning parties involved at least. Since the end of WW2 and the holocaust (a real genocide that resulted in the creation of Israel, remember?) most of the industrialized world has been more restrained in the way it conducts military operations. You could say that the old concept of war, meaning the complete destruction of the enemy followed by unscrupulous land grabbing, is almost gone, luckily and at least for now. The problem is of course that military actions still do happen, and no matter how much the modern military forces try to avoid civilian deaths it is impossible to do so, specially in urban warfare with hundreds of people per sq. km.

“We should leave Israel alone” say some people.... Well it is too late for that, Israel is culturally close to the West, and it is also a very successful economy with a working (but not perfect) democratic system and low corruption levels. How many countries that have received billions of dollars in US aid have achieved this? Look at Latin America and you will find at least two or three nations that also received gazillions of greenbacks but have remained corrupt, poor and economically inefficient. A country like Israel certainly wants and to some extent even needs contacts with the west, but if we shut them the door, there are other partners willing to help the little guy in exchange for something. Countries that are on the rise, becoming ever more powerful and whose values are “flexible” enough to allow the real hardcore faction in Israel to take over. The one that is mostly kept under control thanks to our shared western values. Then the hyperbolic critics of the Israeli state would see what a genocide and a war really means, but believe me, nobody wants to see that anymore. So let's bring it down a notch, shall we?

 

[angelo]

Hahaha, chompsky an expert on the middle east! Thats like saying Hitler was an expert
On open and free governance.
Chomsky is to the left of Stalin. A complete nut job.
The main problem in any Arab country is islafacist. Democracy is unknown in islam.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Seriously?

That's what you read in to my suggestion?

You said one side should move and indicated it should be the Israeli side. That's giving the Palestinians almost exactly what they want. How can you not see this would be a major victory for them??

What kind of sick, twisted moronic fuckwit do you need to be to see your enemy being driven from the land, never to return, as 'rewarding them with victory'??

When your objective is to drive them from the land.

 

[bilby]

You said one side should move and indicated it should be the Israeli side. That's giving the Palestinians almost exactly what they want. How can you not see this would be a major victory for them??

What kind of sick, twisted moronic fuckwit do you need to be to see your enemy being driven from the land, never to return, as 'rewarding them with victory'??

When your objective is to drive them from the land.

The post to which you replied read:

Move both groups out, and sow the ground with salt so no bastard can live there, if that's what it takes.

I couldn't care less who is right or who is wrong; neither side deserves shit; both sides behave like shit, and if they can't play nice, then they need to be separated.

There is nothing special about that scrap of semi-desert that makes the loss of a single life worthwhile.

That you can interpret this as somehow partisan indicates that you are incapable of participating in a rational discussion of the issue.

If this is the case, then please shut the fuck up and let the adults do the talking. That goes for anyone who is dumb enough to imagine that either side can possibly 'Win' for any reasonable meaning of the word 'Win'.

If you can't share, then nobody gets one. Toddler taming 101. Shreiks of "It's not fair" and "But HE started it" are to be expected, and should be ignored.

 

[Ford]

And besides, Israelis have a historical connection to Israel just like Arabs have a historical connection to Arabia.

If we were to hand over the land to the group with a long-standing historical connection, then Israel should be given to the Italians, as Rome ruled the area for centuries.