What should Israel do?

[untermensche]

What modern army has no tanks or planes or anti-aircraft weaponry or artillery?

Doesn't look a thing like a duck.

1) Hamas *HAS* artillery.

2) The lack of certain weapon systems might make it a low-tech army, that's not the same as not an army.

No they don't.

And if you were ever in the military you would know Hamas is not an army.

It is nothing more than a gang with a few guns.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

1) Hamas *HAS* artillery.

2) The lack of certain weapon systems might make it a low-tech army, that's not the same as not an army.

No they don't.



And if you were ever in the military you would know Hamas is not an army.

It is nothing more than a gang with a few guns.

AND 10,000 SURFACE TO SURFACE MISSILES.


JUST ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG. ANY GROUP WITH 10,000 SURFACE TO SURFACE MISSILES IS AN ARMY.

 

[untermensche]

No they don't.



And if you were ever in the military you would know Hamas is not an army.

It is nothing more than a gang with a few guns.

AND 10,000 SURFACE TO SURFACE MISSILES.


JUST ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG. ANY GROUP WITH 10,000 SURFACE TO SURFACE MISSILES IS AN ARMY.

You forgot a few words.

10,000 useless surface to surface rockets.

Not a weapon in any modern army. Something a gang of desperate trouble makers would use, not an army

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) Hamas *HAS* artillery.

2) The lack of certain weapon systems might make it a low-tech army, that's not the same as not an army.

It is the billions in U.S. aid to Israel that makes this all possible. As for your hatred of Hamas...why? As for our billions in aid to Israel also I ask why. This is a proxy war. The only thing I cannot understand about it is whether or not it is war for war's sake. All of Loren's arguments have not convinced me it is anything else.

With no aid at all from the US you would still see the violence. Probably even more because unguided weapons are cheaper than guided ones.

And Hamas is merely one example of the Islamists that are the real problem.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You forgot a few words.

10,000 useless surface to surface rockets.

Not a weapon in any modern army. Something a gang of desperate trouble makers would use, not an army

Nothing about "artillery" says it must be state of the art.

1) The artillery I was thinking of was mortars--very similar to current US army equipment. They prefer rockets because the mortars can't reach very many civilians.

2) He's right, their rockets *ARE* considered artillery. Their longer ranged stuff is mostly ordinary free-flight artillery rockets as used by many armies.

 

[untermensche]

You forgot a few words.

10,000 useless surface to surface rockets.

Not a weapon in any modern army. Something a gang of desperate trouble makers would use, not an army

Nothing about "artillery" says it must be state of the art.

1) The artillery I was thinking of was mortars--very similar to current US army equipment. They prefer rockets because the mortars can't reach very many civilians.

2) He's right, their rockets *ARE* considered artillery. Their longer ranged stuff is mostly ordinary free-flight artillery rockets as used by many armies.

Artillery looks like this:

This is from WWII. 70 years ago.

The Palestinians don't even have 70 year old technology.

To call them an army is a joke.

 

[Underseer]

Nothing about "artillery" says it must be state of the art.

1) The artillery I was thinking of was mortars--very similar to current US army equipment. They prefer rockets because the mortars can't reach very many civilians.

2) He's right, their rockets *ARE* considered artillery. Their longer ranged stuff is mostly ordinary free-flight artillery rockets as used by many armies.

Artillery looks like this:
View attachment 1032
This is from WWII. 70 years ago.

The Palestinians don't even have 70 year old technology.

To call them an army is a joke.

The important thing is that Israelis are justified in killing Palestinian civilians because Palestinians kill a much smaller number of Israeli citizens, but Palestinians are not justified in killing Israeli civilians because the Israelis are killing a much larger number of Palestinian civilians.

Also, Palestinian children sometimes throw rocks.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nothing about "artillery" says it must be state of the art.

1) The artillery I was thinking of was mortars--very similar to current US army equipment. They prefer rockets because the mortars can't reach very many civilians.

2) He's right, their rockets *ARE* considered artillery. Their longer ranged stuff is mostly ordinary free-flight artillery rockets as used by many armies.

Artillery looks like this:
View attachment 1032
This is from WWII. 70 years ago.

The Palestinians don't even have 70 year old technology.

To call them an army is a joke.

This is also considered artillery:



As is this:



A WWII Soviet rocket. Hamas shoots these also.

 

[untermensche]

In the US mortars are not part of artillery battalions. They are part of infantry battalions. It is an infantry weapon.

And of course what made Soviet rockets effective is in the picture. You have to fire a whole bunch of them at once to make it an effective weapon.

All you are saying is that Hamas has weapons.

Having weapons is not the same thing as being an army.

 

[Jayjay]

In the US mortars are not part of artillery battalions. They are part of infantry battalions. It is an infantry weapon.

And of course what made Soviet rockets effective is in the picture. You have to fire a whole bunch of them at once to make it an effective weapon.

All you are saying is that Hamas has weapons.

Having weapons is not the same thing as being an army.

Why does it matter whether Hamas is designated as an "army" or not? It doesn't make their weapons any less deadly.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In the US mortars are not part of artillery battalions. They are part of infantry battalions. It is an infantry weapon.

Yeah--proving some organic artillery ability to the infantry. A mortar doesn't reach as a howitzer but it can still pack quite a punch at targets within range.

And of course what made Soviet rockets effective is in the picture. You have to fire a whole bunch of them at once to make it an effective weapon.

For what they are doing it's actually more effective not fired en masse. If Hamas were firing a barrage like in the picture everyone in the area would either evacuate or be in shelters, they wouldn't manage to kill very many. As it stands they were sometimes killing people who didn't reach shelter in time, at least until Iron Dome started knocking them from the sky.

All you are saying is that Hamas has weapons.

Having weapons is not the same thing as being an army.

They're an organized force that has and uses weapons. Army in my book.

 

[untermensche]

They're an organized force that has and uses weapons. Army in my book.

You're book looks at these people as subhuman deserving of less rights so it isn't worth much.

Having a few weapons doesn't make any group an army. You've obviously never been in the military.

 

[angelo]

In the US mortars are not part of artillery battalions. They are part of infantry battalions. It is an infantry weapon.

And of course what made Soviet rockets effective is in the picture. You have to fire a whole bunch of them at once to make it an effective weapon.

All you are saying is that Hamas has weapons.

Having weapons is not the same thing as being an army.

Why does it matter whether Hamas is designated as an "army" or not? It doesn't make their weapons any less deadly.

Whether it's called an army or not hamas, as are all Islamic terrorists groups part and parcel of ISIS, or the muslim brotherhood who's charter says they will never stop killing innocents until a caliphate is established throughout the world. Then they will continue to fight amongst themselves.

 

[untermensche]

Why does it matter whether Hamas is designated as an "army" or not? It doesn't make their weapons any less deadly.

Whether it's called an army or not hamas, as are all Islamic terrorists groups part and parcel of ISIS, or the muslim brotherhood who's charter says they will never stop killing innocents until a caliphate is established throughout the world. Then they will continue to fight amongst themselves.

What kind of people would we think decades of endless oppression would create?

Hamas is not the problem.

It is a reaction to oppression born years after the oppression started and not the root cause of the oppression.

You end the oppression give the Palestinians the normal rights we think all humans should have and Hamas of course is still there but in time it becomes totally irrelevant.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

You end the oppression give the Palestinians the normal rights we think all humans should have and Hamas of course is still there but in time it becomes totally irrelevant.

You live in a world all your own.......

What do we know of the Palestinians? What would the Palestinians do to the Jews in Israel if the power imbalance were reversed? Well, they have told us what they would do. For some reason, Israel’s critics just don’t want to believe the worst about a group like Hamas, even when it declares the worst of itself. We’ve already had a Holocaust and several other genocides in the 20th century. People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide, we should listen. There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could. Would every Palestinian support genocide? Of course not. But vast numbers of them—and of Muslims throughout the world—would. Needless to say, the Palestinians in general, not just Hamas, have a history of targeting innocent noncombatants in the most shocking ways possible. They’ve blown themselves up on buses and in restaurants. They’ve massacred teenagers. They’ve murdered Olympic athletes. They now shoot rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. And again, the charter of their government in Gaza explicitly tells us that they want to annihilate the Jews—not just in Israel but everywhere. [Note: Again, I realize that not all Palestinians support Hamas. Nor am I discounting the degree to which the occupation, along with collateral damage suffered in war, has fueled Palestinian rage. But Palestinian terrorism (and Muslim anti-Semitism) is what has made peaceful coexistence thus far impossible.]

Sam Harris

 

[Shadowy Man]

There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could. Would every Palestinian support genocide? Of course not. But vast numbers of them—and of Muslims throughout the world—would. Needless to say, the Palestinians in general, not just Hamas, have a history of targeting innocent noncombatants in the most shocking ways possible.

It's just very hard to interpret these sentences without some numbers. How many Palestinians have actually attacked and killed Israeli Jews? His first sentence generalizes to all of them. The he says not all of them. Then he says "vast numbers" of them. Then he's back to "in general" they have targeted innocents.

How many, exactly, are "vast numbers". What fraction of the total Palestinian population has been active in combat? One could say that "vast numbers" of Americans have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, because the number is over a million, yet it represents a very small percentage of all Americans.

What is the probability that if you randomly picked a Palestinian and gave him or her a knife in a room full of Israeli Jews that he or she would go on a stabbing spree?

It may help Sam Harris' argument to white wash an entire population this way and appeal to emotion, but it's not really partaking in honest discourse unless he can cite his numbers.

 

[untermensche]

You live in a world all your own.......

What do we know of the Palestinians? What would the Palestinians do to the Jews in Israel if the power imbalance were reversed? Well, they have told us what they would do. For some reason, Israel’s critics just don’t want to believe the worst about a group like Hamas, even when it declares the worst of itself. We’ve already had a Holocaust and several other genocides in the 20th century. People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide, we should listen. There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could. Would every Palestinian support genocide? Of course not. But vast numbers of them—and of Muslims throughout the world—would. Needless to say, the Palestinians in general, not just Hamas, have a history of targeting innocent noncombatants in the most shocking ways possible. They’ve blown themselves up on buses and in restaurants. They’ve massacred teenagers. They’ve murdered Olympic athletes. They now shoot rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. And again, the charter of their government in Gaza explicitly tells us that they want to annihilate the Jews—not just in Israel but everywhere. [Note: Again, I realize that not all Palestinians support Hamas. Nor am I discounting the degree to which the occupation, along with collateral damage suffered in war, has fueled Palestinian rage. But Palestinian terrorism (and Muslim anti-Semitism) is what has made peaceful coexistence thus far impossible.]

Sam Harris

Just because Sam Harris can't understand the roots of all this doesn't make me living in another world.

Sam Harris is an apologist for Israeli aggression nothing more.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

You live in a world all your own.......

Sam Harris

Just because Sam Harris can't understand the roots of all this doesn't make me living in another world.



Sam Harris is an apologist for Israeli aggression nothing more.

The pot calling the kettle black..... What else can I say. Realty eludes you...

 

[untermensche]

Just because Sam Harris can't understand the roots of all this doesn't make me living in another world.



Sam Harris is an apologist for Israeli aggression nothing more.

The pot calling the kettle black..... What else can I say. Realty eludes you...

Your strange brand of reality does.

Your brand says that if I am being brutally oppressed I must respect the rights of my oppressor.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They're an organized force that has and uses weapons. Army in my book.

You're book looks at these people as subhuman deserving of less rights so it isn't worth much.

Having a few weapons doesn't make any group an army. You've obviously never been in the military.

Hamas is a lot better armed than George Washington's army.

Are you saying we didn't have an army when we fought the British??

- - - Updated - - -

Why does it matter whether Hamas is designated as an "army" or not? It doesn't make their weapons any less deadly.

Whether it's called an army or not hamas, as are all Islamic terrorists groups part and parcel of ISIS, or the muslim brotherhood who's charter says they will never stop killing innocents until a caliphate is established throughout the world. Then they will continue to fight amongst themselves.

Objection: They won't ever stop killing innocents. They'll just pick different innocents.

- - - Updated - - -

It's just very hard to interpret these sentences without some numbers. How many Palestinians have actually attacked and killed Israeli Jews? His first sentence generalizes to all of them. The he says not all of them. Then he says "vast numbers" of them. Then he's back to "in general" they have targeted innocents.

Hamas is figured to have around 20,000 fighters.

How many, exactly, are "vast numbers". What fraction of the total Palestinian population has been active in combat? One could say that "vast numbers" of Americans have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, because the number is over a million, yet it represents a very small percentage of all Americans.

Vast numbers & small percent are not incompatible.

- - - Updated - - -

The pot calling the kettle black..... What else can I say. Realty eludes you...

Your strange brand of reality does.

Your brand says that if I am being brutally oppressed I must respect the rights of my oppressor.

Ok--the Jews were brutally oppressed in the time before 1948. I guess they don't need to respect Palestinian lives.