What would make you religious?

[Unknown Soldier]

Say you were offered a great job working for a religious organization. The pay is high, the conditions are comfortable and safe, your coworkers are nice, friendly and trustworthy people, and the work is what you love to do! The only catch is that you are expected to accept the religious beliefs of that organization.

The scenario above is what I think is an example of what might convert a person to a religion. Even if you can't believe what the sect teaches, you can fake it easily enough and reap the benefits.

So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

 

[Shadowy Man]

So, is this hypothetical “you” actually converting or just faking it?

In your second paragraph you suggest the person can fake it and still reap the benefits. In that case they didn’t really become religious, did they?

 

[TomC]

Been there, done that.

I did a ton of work for the local RCC. I didn't even need pay, I paid.

Does that make me religious?
Tom

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So, is this hypothetical “you” actually converting or just faking it?

In your second paragraph you suggest the person can fake it and still reap the benefits. In that case they didn’t really become religious, did they?

Answer my questions, then I will answer yours:
So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Been there, done that.

I did a ton of work for the local RCC. I didn't even need pay, I paid.

Does that make me religious?
Tom

Answer my questions, then I will answer yours:
So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

 

[Shadowy Man]

So, is this hypothetical “you” actually converting or just faking it?

In your second paragraph you suggest the person can fake it and still reap the benefits. In that case they didn’t really become religious, did they?

Answer my questions, then I will answer yours:
So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

But by “convert” do you mean fake it like your second paragraph suggests?

I can’t answer your question properly if I don’t know what you mean by “convert”.

 

[Rhea]

The word “convert” does include faking belief.

So to answer your question - If I faked acquiescence to get a job, then no, I would not be “converted”.
I would still leave every day with my original beliefs, since we’ve defined me as “faking it.”

And, like Tom - who did answer your question - Many of us have done this already in our lives; faked belief to get along in an environment that required it.

 

[Infinite Monkey]

I don't think I have too many skills that would be useful to a religious organization as a permanent employee, but I have done work for religion-related clients who didn't require conversion for contract work, luckily.

I suppose it would depend on whether there were demands on my time outside of work. Does the religion have services I need to show up for? Weekly? Daily? Must my wife convert as well? Those would be deal breakers.

Do they restrict consumption of substances or media they disapprove of? Would I have to make changes to my home in case fellow followers of the religion came to visit? Also deal breakers.

There's also a lot of religious logistics that I have no idea about. Can someone join this hypothetical religion without renouncing one we're already a part of? I'm a baptized, confirmed Catholic (raised in the religion), and that would likely be complicated to disentangle from.

It just seems like it would be easier to find a different job elsewhere, even in this economy, but a good enough position MIGHT be worth it, as long as it's just at work that I have to wear the wizard hat and chant in Klingon.

 

[steve_bank]

There was Marjoe Gortner, I read his book on how people profit off relgion. His documntay may be online.

When he was a kid they made up visions for him to recite on stage. They sewed deep pockets into his pants. After a service he walked around the crowd and people stuffed money in his pockets.

Marjoe Gortner - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hugh Marjoe Ross Gortner (born January 14, 1944) is a former evangelist preacher and actor. He first gained public attention during the late 1940s when his parents arranged for him to be ordained as a preacher at age four, due to his extraordinary speaking ability. He was the youngest known in that position. As a young man, he preached on the revival circuit and brought celebrity to the revival movement.[1]

He became a celebrity again during the 1970s when he starred in Marjoe (1972), a behind-the-scenes documentary about the lucrative business of Pentecostal preaching, which won the 1972 Academy Award for Best Documentary Film. That documentary now is noted as one of the most vehement criticisms of Pentecostal preaching.[2]

I would never feign relgion to go aolong or profit. From what I have learned of relgion without any ethics I'd be wrting books about my micaculous conversion.

A tangled web we weave when we set out to decieve.

 

[bilby]

My double stepdad* was a relief teacher for a while, and he was sent to various schools around the city to cover for absences in the regular staff. He was banned from every Roman Catholic school in the local authority area, after he arrived at an RC school and, on seeing a life sized crucifix on the wall, remarking to the headmaster: "I see you got the bastard who stole your video".

He was a Jewish atheist, for what it's worth.






* It was the '70s (although this incident happened in the '80s)

 

[TomC]

And, like Tom - who did answer your question - Many of us have done this already in our lives; faked belief to get along in an environment that required it.

I didn't even fake it, for my adult life.

I certainly did as a kid. But I've spent years and a bunch of money, as an adult, helping get things done I wanted to see happen. I didn't fake anything. I'm a big faggot, nontheist, in a small town where everyone knows everyone.

I was impressed by the local RCC and their "Peace and Justice" committee so I pitched in. The Catholic folks didn't care about my theology, or even my orientation, so much as my willingness and ability. We all got along just fine. Got a bunch of stuff done.

In my experience, the enormous majority of people don't care all that much about what you believe. They care about what you do. How you treat the other humans in your world.
Tom

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So, is this hypothetical “you” actually converting or just faking it?

In your second paragraph you suggest the person can fake it and still reap the benefits. In that case they didn’t really become religious, did they?

Answer my questions, then I will answer yours:
So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

But by “convert” do you mean fake it like your second paragraph suggests?

I can’t answer your question properly if I don’t know what you mean by “convert”.

Convert either way--it doesn't matter.

 

[rousseau]

The pandemic made me much more religious if we're counting Buddhism. So I guess hardship would be the reason. I just chose a more sophisticated religion to deal with it.

 

[Shadowy Man]

So, is this hypothetical “you” actually converting or just faking it?

In your second paragraph you suggest the person can fake it and still reap the benefits. In that case they didn’t really become religious, did they?

Answer my questions, then I will answer yours:
So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

But by “convert” do you mean fake it like your second paragraph suggests?

I can’t answer your question properly if I don’t know what you mean by “convert”.

Convert either way--it doesn't matter.

it’s not a conversion if it is fake, so I was just trying to get clarification on your terms to understand the real question at hand.

It seems you are asking if I would be willing to fake being religious in order to get a good job. The answer is: it depends. There’s not enough information in your scenario to fully weigh all the pros and cons.

In my field religious belief has never been an issue, if anything it’s the believers who have had to hide their beliefs rather than vice versa.

 

[TomC]

it’s not a conversion if it is fake,

If you're used to faking stuff, you might not understand that.
Tom

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Convert either way--it doesn't matter.

it’s not a conversion if it is fake, so I was just trying to get clarification on your terms to understand the real question at hand.

It seems you are asking if I would be willing to fake being religious in order to get a good job. The answer is: it depends. There’s not enough information in your scenario to fully weigh all the pros and cons.

In my field religious belief has never been an issue, if anything it’s the believers who have had to hide their beliefs rather than vice versa.

I would in most circumstances not fake a conversion even if I could benefit in some ways from doing so. I suppose I would only be a phony if I desperately needed the money.

Sincere conversions are another matter, of course. I would need some solid or demonstrable truths to believe religious claims, but as any informed person knows, religious apologetics is just words. If Christian apologists could have God restore limbs, then they would get me thinking!

 

[Thomas II]

So a miracle...A special kind of miracle that would transform all this...A new sense of meaning, a paradigm...A mind shift...

 

[Rhea]

It is still not clear what exactly your real question is.

The thread title is,

“What would make you religious?”​

Which is a pretty specific question that implies becoming not just curious, not just interested, not just believing, but actually participatory.

But then you say,

Say you were offered a great job working for a religious organization. The pay is high, the conditions are comfortable and safe, your coworkers are nice, friendly and trustworthy people, and the work is what you love to do! The only catch is that you are expected to accept the religious beliefs of that organization.

Well, “accepting beliefs” is different from “becoming religious”. This is a very different question. What would make me accept those beliefs as real? How is that a “catch,” anyway?


Then you say

The scenario above is what I think is an example of what might convert a person to a religion. Even if you can't believe what the sect teaches, you can fake it easily enough and reap the benefits.

Obviously, are you capable of “faking it to reap the benefits” is a completely different question from whether you will start to actively participate in religion or whether you can accept the beliefs as real.

So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

And faking it is - in no way - “converting.

So what are you actually asking here?

Which are you asking:

What would make you …​

1. Fake religious adherence to get and keep a good job
2. Change your mind about the believability of some religion and come to agree that it is true
3. Become an active and sincere participant in the beliefs, rituals and community of the religion

Which is your actual question? 1, 2, or 3?

 

[bilby]

So what are you actually asking here?

Which are you asking:

What would make you …​

1. Fake religious adherence to get and keep a good job
2. Change your mind about the believability of some religion and come to agree that it is true
3. Become an active and sincere participant in the beliefs, rituals and community of the religion

He's asking you to answer question one, because he can then tell himself (and his friends at CARM) that he asked the atheists, and they all answered question three with variations on "Oh, I would easily do that".

Sadly, we aren't the unthinking nor the morally and ideologically flexible people he and his friends imagine, so we haven't fallen into his carefully laid and oh so clever atheist trap.

 

[Rhea]

I imagine that these kinds of equivocations are how the Catholic Church decides on the “number of adherents” that they claim. Or any religion, really.