What would make you religious?

[TomC]

I imagine that these kinds of equivocations are how the Catholic Church decides on the “number of adherents” that they claim. Or any religion, really.

I'm a gay nontheist.
I was baptized and confirmed Catholic. 12 years of Catholic education. Years of writing substantial checks to my local parish.

I'm pretty sure I'm still on their records as a Catholic. I can tell you for a fact, there are Christians who gave up on the Trinity decades ago. Christians who stopped having Faith in Jesus about the same time we stopped believing in Santa Claus.

I don't think there are nearly as many Christians out there as there are people who check the box "Christian" when surveyed.
Tom

 

[EricH]

It is still not clear what exactly your real question is.

The thread title is,

“What would make you religious?”​

Which is a pretty specific question that implies becoming not just curious, not just interested, not just believing, but actually participatory.

But then you say,

Say you were offered a great job working for a religious organization. The pay is high, the conditions are comfortable and safe, your coworkers are nice, friendly and trustworthy people, and the work is what you love to do! The only catch is that you are expected to accept the religious beliefs of that organization.

Well, “accepting beliefs” is different from “becoming religious”. This is a very different question. What would make me accept those beliefs as real? How is that a “catch,” anyway?


Then you say

The scenario above is what I think is an example of what might convert a person to a religion. Even if you can't believe what the sect teaches, you can fake it easily enough and reap the benefits.

Obviously, are you capable of “faking it to reap the benefits” is a completely different question from whether you will start to actively participate in religion or whether you can accept the beliefs as real.

So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

And faking it is - in no way - “converting.

So what are you actually asking here?

Which are you asking:

What would make you …​

1. Fake religious adherence to get and keep a good job
2. Change your mind about the believability of some religion and come to agree that it is true
3. Become an active and sincere participant in the beliefs, rituals and community of the religion

Which is your actual question? 1, 2, or 3?

Thank you for pointing out that the idea, and line of inquiry apparently being proposed by US is nothing more than a poorly conceived and even more poorly developed concept that is best placed in the "Toxic - abort with extreme prejudice" pile that the poster's ideas usually end up in. Or we shall soon be reading about US''s banners on CARM proclaiming that atheists are all willing to abandon their skepticism at the slightest opportunity and such skepticism is either superficial or completely faked.

On another note, I wonder why US continues to promote this kind of superficial dialog with atheists after he has told us that he does not believe anything we say. What is the point of this inquiry? That's a rhetorical question since most of us already know the answer. But it needs to be asked nevertheless, if only to remind US that we are wise to his intentions.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Waitaminnut.

I thought the op author said that atheism is a religion.

So, wouldn't we all already be "religious?"

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So a miracle...A special kind of miracle that would transform all this...A new sense of meaning, a paradigm...A mind shift...

In other words, you may convert to a religion that exhibits God-like properties that can likely only be explained as the work of a real God rather than the work of crafty men. I might convert to a religion like that too.

 

[bilby]

So a miracle...A special kind of miracle that would transform all this...A new sense of meaning, a paradigm...A mind shift...

In other words, you may convert to a religion that exhibits God-like properties that can likely only be explained as the work of a real God rather than the work of crafty men. I might convert to a religion like that too.

Sure; If we lived in a world in which gods were unequivocally seen to be intervening in our lives, it would be crazy to remain an atheist. But we don't live in such a world.

It was all very well going on about pure logic and how the universe was ruled by logic and the harmony of numbers, but the plain fact of the matter was that the Disc was manifestly traversing space on the back of a giant turtle and the gods had a habit of going round to atheists' houses and smashing their windows.

The plain fact in our world is that the gods don't smash atheists' windows; They don't do anything at all. Which makes believing that they are real, about as reasonable and logical as believing that the Earth is flat, and carried through space on the back of a giant turtle.

 

[DBT]

As soon as a God, an in your face, genuine gold standard, Supernatural Creator of the Universe makes an appearance and sets us straight, everyone becomes a theist.

 

[TomC]

As soon as a God, an in your face, genuine gold standard, Supernatural Creator of the Universe makes an appearance and sets us straight, everyone becomes a theist.

Wouldn't have to be "in your face, genuine gold standard".
Just a comprehensible Message.

One from God, not some human claiming to speak for God. That's completely different.
Tom

ETA ~I've made this point many times in the past. The theistic response is usually something like, "But how could God do that?" I point that I can think of several possibilities, and I can't even make wine the old fashioned way with grapes.~

 

[Gospel]

ETA ~I've made this point many times in the past. The theistic response is usually something like, "But how could God do that?" I point that I can think of several possibilities, and I can't even make wine the old fashioned way with grapes.~

When my wife asked what it would take for me to believe in God, I suggested a simple scenario: God could manifest in such an undeniable, omnipresent way that no one on Earth could deny His existence. He would remain visible and accessible to everyone, to the point where the initial awe wears off and people start to question Him directly about the suffering in the world, eventually coming to terms with reality that he's a fucking dick.

 

[uzersuperman]

Say you were offered a great job working for a religious organization. The pay is high, the conditions are comfortable and safe, your coworkers are nice, friendly and trustworthy people, and the work is what you love to do! The only catch is that you are expected to accept the religious beliefs of that organization.

The scenario above is what I think is an example of what might convert a person to a religion. Even if you can't believe what the sect teaches, you can fake it easily enough and reap the benefits.

So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

" accept the religious beliefs " .. means what ?
like pray with us or don't eat pork !

 

[spikepipsqueak]

I would likely be religious today if 5 conditions had been met in my upbringing.

1/. I was raised by people who genuinely believed in a god and
2/. who were New Testament, rather than fire and brimstone Christians and
3/. who practiced what they preached.
4/. I had very little access to knowledge.
5/. My life was so miserable/confusing that I derived comfort and security from the thought that an all powerful being, who loved me, existed.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I would likely be religious today if 5 conditions had been met in my upbringing.

1/. I was raised by people who genuinely believed in a god and
2/. who were New Testament, rather than fire and brimstone Christians and
3/. who practiced what they preached.
4/. I had very little access to knowledge.
5/. My life was so miserable/confusing that I derived comfort and security from the thought that an all powerful being, who loved me, existed.

As I am today there is nothing that could make me "religious" and a believer in the sense the OP is asking. Only number 4 above could change that. So I would have to be about 7 years old again with the brain and the intellect I had as a 7 year old. But of course that would not be "me" anymore because that person is long gone. But that person could be religious and a believer and might be able to hold a job for pay.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I would likely be religious today if 5 conditions had been met in my upbringing.

1/. I was raised by people who genuinely believed in a god and
2/. who were New Testament, rather than fire and brimstone Christians and
3/. who practiced what they preached.
4/. I had very little access to knowledge.
5/. My life was so miserable/confusing that I derived comfort and security from the thought that an all powerful being, who loved me, existed.

As I am today there is nothing that could make me "religious" and a believer in the sense the OP is asking. Only number 4 above could change that. So I would have to be about 7 years old again with the brain and the intellect I had as a 7 year old. But of course that would not be "me" anymore because that person is long gone. But that person could be religious and a believer and might be able to hold a job for pay.

But think about it. It is said that in old age we somewhat revert back to our younger selves. Maybe some day you will have dementia and so your ability to access your own knowledge will decrease. So, dementia might make you religious?

For me, I think I might become religious if I start hearing voices.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I would likely be religious today if 5 conditions had been met in my upbringing.

1/. I was raised by people who genuinely believed in a god and
2/. who were New Testament, rather than fire and brimstone Christians and
3/. who practiced what they preached.
4/. I had very little access to knowledge.
5/. My life was so miserable/confusing that I derived comfort and security from the thought that an all powerful being, who loved me, existed.

As I am today there is nothing that could make me "religious" and a believer in the sense the OP is asking. Only number 4 above could change that. So I would have to be about 7 years old again with the brain and the intellect I had as a 7 year old. But of course that would not be "me" anymore because that person is long gone. But that person could be religious and a believer and might be able to hold a job for pay.

But think about it. It is said that in old age we somewhat revert back to our younger selves. Maybe some day you will have dementia and so your ability to access your own knowledge will decrease. So, dementia might make you religious?

For me, I think I might become religious if I start hearing voices.

Dementia could certainly make a person religious. Any condition in the brain that decreases cognition so that the brain's operating system is emotionally dominated like when we were kids will do the trick.

I have done much research on how the brain operates, how stress, injury, the use of stimulants and genetics affect the prefontal cortex leading to changes in personality and behavior. The prefontal cortex really is the doorway. So long as mine doesn't change neither will I and neither will anyone's. The knowledge I have about how it works is rather like possessing x-ray vision. It answers pretty much all the questions about human behavior both individually and as a species. There's no mystery anymore as to how and why humans do things the way they do. It's like those quality gurus say in manufacturing, "We have met the enemy and they are us!" So true. But if my brain is not operating rationally I won't ever come to that realization, which unfortunately is the case for lots of us.

 

[steve_bank]

Th thought of being stretched out on the rack, hot pokers put in my eyes, ad having my heart cut out while alive if I don't profess faith might make me at least consider converting.

 

[TomC]

Th thought of being stretched out on the rack, hot pokers put in my eyes, ad having my heart cut out while alive if I don't profess faith might make me at least consider converting.

Not me, not at this point.

It would be powerful motivation to fake it. But I already know how to do that. I became very accomplished as a child.
Tom

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

As soon as a God, an in your face, genuine gold standard, Supernatural Creator of the Universe makes an appearance and sets us straight, everyone becomes a theist.

Could still be aliens.

 

[TomC]

As soon as a God, an in your face, genuine gold standard, Supernatural Creator of the Universe makes an appearance and sets us straight, everyone becomes a theist.

Could still be aliens.

What's your problem with that?

What's the important difference between a God-like being and a being that is God-like?

Frankly, I'm pretty sure that my possession of an internet connected cell phone would qualify me as a supernatural being, with divine powers of Google, to an 18th century monk.
Tom

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

As soon as a God, an in your face, genuine gold standard, Supernatural Creator of the Universe makes an appearance and sets us straight, everyone becomes a theist.

Could still be aliens.

What's your problem with that?

What's the important difference between a God-like being and a being that is God-like?

Frankly, I'm pretty sure that my possession of an internet connected cell phone would qualify me as a supernatural being, with divine powers of Google, to an 18th century monk.
Tom

The important difference would be that the appearance of a vastly more advanced alien society, even one that appears god-like, wouldn’t make me a theist. I’m just not doing it.

 

[Swammerdami]

So, is this hypothetical “you” actually converting or just faking it?

In your second paragraph you suggest the person can fake it and still reap the benefits. In that case they didn’t really become religious, did they?

Answer my questions, then I will answer yours:
So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

Been there, done that.

I did a ton of work for the local RCC. I didn't even need pay, I paid.

Does that make me religious?
Tom

Answer my questions, then I will answer yours:
So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

Why should we answer a stupid question when the questioner refuses invitations to make the stupid question less stupid?

I was an Episcopalian acolyte (altar boy) at about age 12. (I was too shy to mention to my father that Christianity was malarkey.) The famous (and atheist? ) Bishop James Pike once spoke to me. He told me to rest the crucifix I was holding with effort.

Was I religious?

I think I mentioned that a Thai bureaucrat "helped" me fill out a form, and checked the "Christian" box solely based on my passport country. I did not ask that the check-box be corrected. Does that make me "religious"?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So, is this hypothetical “you” actually converting or just faking it?

In your second paragraph you suggest the person can fake it and still reap the benefits. In that case they didn’t really become religious, did they?

Answer my questions, then I will answer yours:
So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

Been there, done that.

I did a ton of work for the local RCC. I didn't even need pay, I paid.

Does that make me religious?
Tom

Answer my questions, then I will answer yours:
So would you "convert" under those circumstances? If not, are there other circumstances that would make you religious?

Why should we answer a stupid question when the questioner refuses invitations to make the stupid question less stupid?

Welcome to "Banned Land."