Where is Bernie Goetz when you need him?

[Derec]

Goetz was a mixed bagged, Derec.

I agree. He was a man who was pushed too far and turned the table on the muggers. Not perfect by any means, but his actions are quite understandable.

To me this is about lack of policing and also lack of social support (have you seen what a disaster NYC was in 70s and 80s?) for those teens - not to excuse their actions. This was a case where both the right and left had good points.

It is precisely because NYC was such a disaster that Goetz decided to arm himself even when his permit was not approved.

At any rate Jordan Peterson, the professor that the alt-right mistakenly thinks agrees with them, has interesting insights into relative poverty and young male violence. This has much more to do with what happened in Oakland (if the kids were black) than any race based effect could have.

Interesting. One thought. He says that it is not the material circumstances themselves that cause violence, but comparing yourself to those who have more. Would then not the hip hop culture, which glorifies conspicuous consumption, be one cause of violence of young people immersed in this culture? I mean, most rap songs these days seem to be about making it rain at da club (preferably "on them hoes"), ridiculously expensive cars and cribs etc. The actual Gini index in the US is not that high (ok, it is higher than in Canada), but the perceived Gini index between most hip hop consumers and of the lifestyle presented by hip hop producers must be off the charts!

Btw, is he the one who got in trouble for not playing the genderqueer pronoun game up in Toronto, sparking the Tranny Goth Jeff Goldblum/Smugglypugg incident?

 

[repoman]

Most thugs that make the news are black.

Hey kids, let's all play Count The Thugs!

Go to your favorite news outlet and count how many thugs in the news are white and how many are black.

I got CNN:

Two white thugs in uniform beat up a motorist.
A white thug murdered his wife but was busted by the data on her Fitbit.
A black thug murdered a random pedestrian and posted it on Facebook.
A white thug murdered some people at a Washington mall.
A black thug killed his wife and one of her students in their classroom.
A white thug who raped a 10 year old and then killed her and her grandparents in an arson fire committed suicide.
A black thug killed two co-workers and then committed suicide at a gym in a Florida mall.

Tally: 5 white thugs, 3 black thugs.

Hmmm. I wonder if Loren is wrong about thugs who make the news. Maybe the black thugs are the only ones he remembers? Or perhaps Loren, like Derec, used the term almost exclusively to describe blacks and will go to great lengths to avoid calling whites like this guy a thug even though he fits the description Loren claims to use.

ETA: Reuters is only carrying reports on two thugs on its main page. One thug is a white guy who murdered a trooper, and the other thug is a Hispanic Uber driver who raped a passenger.

The whole Lance Scarcella case is interesting. I was watching parts of his stream live and recorded the days before by watching it being carried on the NOTHIEVESALLOWED youtube channel (he did not know Scarsella) which occasionally showed protests of BLM and other movements.

People in the chat thought that NTA was a racist like them, but he make it very clear that he was against the methods of BLM and their analysis of why the police shootings happened and the stats they used and not a guy who wanted blacks to be harassed or killed by cops.

The Scarsella and his cohorts were possible white supremacists, but for sure thrill seekers and also thought it was ridiculous that this attention was given to Jamar Clarke who was a violent trainwreck of a person and the ideology that had people overlook this. They were satirizing the protest irl.

An aside, I occasionally see stories that are of the police killing or humiliating a working class black man with no violent history. Where are the protests for an untainted victim? The protests for Jamar Clark were just dumb.

The possible reverse analogy for the unbridled stupidity of Scarsella and co. taking guns to this protest while doing irl Baneposting would be for Latinos to stream themselves with a gun before going to an outdoor Trump rally talking smack in code to trump people and then being chased away while received credible violent threats.

 

[Toni]

BART has its own police force.

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True, but there is your very well documented posting history. Perhaps this is the very first time that you used 'thug' to describe a white person or posted any wrong doing by any white male.

No it is not.

Up thread, someone did the research. 43 posts using thug. None referring to a white person.

Maybe you can link something else.

Fits well with your obsessions ...

what obsession than that.

Wait, so you think I am worse than 60 train robbers? Wow, just wow!

Yeah, I kinda do.

You also routinely engage in criminal activity, perhaps related to sex trafficking, for all either of us know. You have a long, well established posting history that indicates your intense fear and distrust of and dislike for black people and women of any color. Racism and sexism is responsible for a lot of bad stuff in this world. Serious bad stuff.

Seems like the 'gang' got away with a few cell phones. A few people got hurt, likely more by accident than deliberate intentional action of the 'robbers.'

I don't approve of what those kids did. It's wrong, it's criminal. It also sounds very much like a bunch of kids doing it as a lark. A stupid, bad lark, yes. Fortunately, no one was hurt more seriously. And yes, I think they should all face consequences. From my reading: community service, restitution. Not jail.

 

[laughing dog]

- NYDN is a rag.
- That happened decades after the case I was referring to.
- The case was dismissed, and we still have presumption of innocence.
- Selling something is a necessary, but not sufficient condition of being a dealer. A dealer sells things regularly as part of their business, and he buys (most of) his stock wholesale. Somebody selling from his own stash (Goetz even claimed he offered her the weed for free, but she insisted on paying) to a young lady he met does not constitute being a dealer any more than me selling my sofa, table and chairs on Ebay makes me a furniture dealer.

You do not indulge the presumption of innocence when black men are charged with crimes. Nor do you turn yourself into a pretzel to excuse their actions. Using your standards, Goetz is a thug - he was charged with a violent crime and with selling drugs.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

We should shoot him then. If he once had something to do with drugs, it's OK for us to shoot him.

 

[Ford]

Up thread, someone did the research. 43 posts using thug. None referring to a white person.

Maybe you can link something else.

I'm fairly certain that - before I put him on ignore - I asked Derec to link to any thread he'd created offering unqualified praise for a black person.

Or perhaps it was unqualified praise for a woman. Or a Muslim. In any case, you won't get one either, because he doesn't have any.

 

[laughing dog]

Except so far none of us know their race(s). You assumed racism with no evidence of it.

Actually, there is a documented history of Derec's obsession with posting about black thugs. And then there is your eye opening “Most thugs that make the news are black.”

 

[repoman]

Except so far none of us know their race(s). You assumed racism with no evidence of it.

Actually, there is a documented history of Derec's obsession with posting about black thugs. And then there is your eye opening “Most thugs that make the news are black.”

http://newnation.org

Maybe he read this website, like I actually do when I want to find out if the non described assailants are black. "Bart" is not on it right now. As soon as the kids' race is known and if they are non-white it will be on it for sure.

 

[Toni]

Actually, there is a documented history of Derec's obsession with posting about black thugs. And then there is your eye opening “Most thugs that make the news are black.”

http://newnation.org

Maybe he read this website, like I actually do when I want to find out if the non described assailants are black. "Bart" is not on it right now. As soon as the kids' race is known and if they are non-white it will be on it for sure.

Oh, I figure it would be ALL over media if they were not white.

 

[Bronzeage]

He is not an idol. But sometimes you need an imperfect tool to do a job.

- - - Updated - - -

The forensic evidence shows a different story. Bernie was in a blind panic, overcome by fear, and firing wild. It's not really clear why he started shooting, because we only have his recollections of it all.

I think it is pretty clear why he started shooting. He was about to be robbed. That much seems to be beyond dispute.

Clear to you, certainly, and plays into your fondest fantasy.

 

[Derec]

Clear to you, certainly, and plays into your fondest fantasy.

I do not think there is anybody who is seriously suggesting that these teens were not attempting to rob him. Except apparently you, for some reason.

 

[Derec]

Oh, I figure it would be ALL over media if they were not white.

Oh, I think it's exactly the opposite.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe he read this website

I did/do not.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, there is a documented history of Derec's obsession with posting about black thugs.

Actually, there is documented obsession of certain posters (you, Toni, Ford etc.) with discussing me, rather than discussing the actual subject of the thread.

 

[Derec]

I'm fairly certain that - before I put him on ignore - I asked Derec to link to any thread he'd created offering unqualified praise for a black person.

I don't think I have offered unqualified praise for any person.

Or perhaps it was unqualified praise for a woman. Or a Muslim. In any case, you won't get one either, because he doesn't have any.

Given that being a Muslim is about holding certain ridiculous beliefs, would you offer unqualified praise to any Muslim? Qualification for any praise is baked right in them being Muslim (same goes for any theist, but Islam > Christianity in ridiculousness department).
That said, I hold Ayan Hirsi Ali in high regard. She is female, black and used to be Muslim (she got better).

 

[laughing dog]

Actually, there is documented obsession of certain posters (you, Toni, Ford etc.) with discussing me, rather than discussing the actual subject of the thread.

I pointed out that
1) Bernard Goetz fits your definition of a thug, and
2) that your documented posting history makes it reasonable to conclude that when you refer to a "thug" that the person is black.

 

[Derec]

1) Bernard Goetz fits your definition of a thug, and

And I have explained that shooting a group of thugs in self defense does not make one a thug.
Also, being entrapped by an undercover police officer, with the case being dismissed later, does not make one a thug either.

2) that your documented posting history makes it reasonable to conclude that when you refer to a "thug" that the person is black.

A very selective posting history (only using instances in thread title, not all mentions). It leads to misleading results.
Still does not excuse your obsession with discussing me, rather than the topic.

 

[laughing dog]

And I have explained that shooting a group of thugs in self defense does not make one a thug.
Also, being entrapped by an undercover police officer, with the case being dismissed later, does not make one a thug either.

I agree that you have twisted yourself into a pretzel to explain why Goetz is not a thug. You have never gone through the same mental gymnastics for a black "Goetz" - and that is the standard you use to judge all race and gender discussions.

A very selective posting history (only using instances in thread title, not all mentions). It leads to misleading results.

Prove it.

Still does not excuse your obsession with discussing me, rather than the topic.

You're the one discussing you. You're the one prolonging discussing you.

 

[Derec]

You also routinely engage in criminal activity,

Not any different than the "criminal activity" gay people engaged prior to Lawrence.
Not any different than the "criminal activity" unmarried people engage in in states that still have anti-fornication laws on the books.

And all of it is very different than robbing a train and assaulting patrons.

perhaps related to sex trafficking, for all either of us know.

Wrong. The ladies I see are independent contractors.

You have a long, well established posting history that indicates your intense fear and distrust of and dislike for black people and women of any color. Racism and sexism is responsible for a lot of bad stuff in this world. Serious bad stuff.

You would be wrong with the interpretation of my posting history. I agree that racism and sexism are bad, but just as bad is restricting racism to white people only or sexism to men only.

Seems like the 'gang' got away with a few cell phones.

So? It was still a robbery, even if it wasn't a particularly successful one.

A few people got hurt, likely more by accident than deliberate intentional action of the 'robbers.'

Doesn't seem to be anything accidental about it.
BART dispatchers illustrate 5 minutes of chaos in Saturday robbery

The whole episode, in which dozens more teens followed the first trio over the gates and beat and robbed at least seven people, was over in less than five minutes, according to the transit agency.[..]
In all, six people said they were robbed on the Dublin-bound train and a seventh on the platform, and a police report said at least two victims sustained injuries to the head that required medical attention.[..]
[A conductor] said he saw them “beat up someone, rob them and then run off the train.”

Also, according to BART, at least some of the teens in question, are known to them from prior incidents.

The transit agency did not say how many alleged robbers have been identified, nor did it release the names or ages of the suspects. Some of the suspects, officials said, were recognizable to BART police from prior incidents.

BART seeks arrest warrants after identifying teens in mob robbery
All that makes it highly unlikely that it was "just a prank".

I don't approve of what those kids did. It's wrong, it's criminal.

And yet you put "robbers" in square quotes. You must not disapprove of it too hard. I mean, in your worldview it's not nearly as bad as commercial consensual sex I am sure.

It also sounds very much like a bunch of kids doing it as a lark. A stupid, bad lark, yes.

No, it doesn't sound much like a "lark" to me at all.

By the way, do you think this was a "lark" or a "prank" too?
Mob of teens drag woman off Muni bus, rob her in San Francisco
Maybe some of these teens participated in the BART train robbery as well.

Fortunately, no one was hurt more seriously. And yes, I think they should all face consequences. From my reading: community service, restitution. Not jail.

The repeat offenders definitely deserve jail time.

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I agree that you have twisted yourself into a pretzel to explain why Goetz is not a thug.

No, you are twisting yourself into a pretzel pretending that self defense and a dismissed case of entrappment make somebody a thug.

You're the one discussing you. You're the one prolonging discussing you.

I am merely defending myself from your ad hominem attacks.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A very selective posting history (only using instances in thread title, not all mentions). It leads to misleading results.

Prove it.

Selective? The 43 threads included all started by Derec, that involved the word thug. If we did it by post, it'd take a long time. The thread analysis is sufficient enough.

 

[Derec]

Selective? The 43 threads included all started by Derec, that involved the word thug. If we did it by post, it'd take a long time. The thread analysis is sufficient enough.

It is the definition of selective. You pick a tiny subset of the whole that is not representative.
Besides, I thought forum rules said that we should discuss the topic, not posters.
But I know, you all are friends with RavenSky and thus never get called out by moderators ...

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Not any different than the "criminal activity" gay people engaged prior to Lawrence.
Not any different than the "criminal activity" unmarried people engage in in states that still have anti-fornication laws on the books.

Be careful of justifications and equivalences they can bite you very hard in the ass.

And all of it is very different than robbing a train and assaulting patrons.

For some prosecutors, it is not.

You have a long, well established posting history that indicates your intense fear and distrust of and dislike for black people and women of any color. Racism and sexism is responsible for a lot of bad stuff in this world. Serious bad stuff.

You would be wrong with the interpretation of my posting history. I agree that racism and sexism are bad, but just as bad is restricting racism to white people only or sexism to men only.

Ahh the victim strategy. Rather than fight for what is right, just play victim. Rather than advocating for change, whine about it. Let me know when there is motivation do something about these ills.