Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[ZiprHead]

 

[Metaphor]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

If one of the people you are referring to is me, I'm baffled as to why you feel that way. I've said men and women are equally responsible (biologically and morally) for pregnancy.

Okay, let me try this again.

You say "men and women are equally responsible for pregnancy"
You support this with reference to pregnancy requiring both an egg and a sperm

No, not just that, but the voluntary actions that lead to an egg and sperm fusing. That is, penis-in-vagina sex.

Toni and I say "women are considered way more responsible for preventing pregnancy than men"
And we make the argument that because men have a very large degree of control over when they ejaculate, and because the means of preventing pregnancy are very, very easy for men to employ in multiple ways, men should have more responsibility for preventing pregnancy than they do now.

They should have equal responsibility. I don't know how you judge the level of responsibility now, though. Are you basing it off your own experience? Survey responses? Your perception of general attitudes?

So, first off, do you get that you're talking about something different than what Toni and I are talking about?
You are talking about responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about responsibility for preventing pregnancy.
You are talking about men and women having equal biological responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about men and women having very unequal social responsibility for preventing pregnancy.

Responsibility for pregnancy is the other side of the same coin as 'responsibility for preventing pregnancy'.

You appear upset that I wrote "if someone wants to absolutely avoid pregnancy, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex". I'm sorry, but that is a biological reality. I can't make myself not believe it. I could and would say the parallel statement "if someone wants to absolutely avoid impregnating somebody, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex".

 

[Bomb#20]

And I don't think “men get to define how pregnancies go” is the necessary result from”men start pregnancies”. ... You asked because you have poor reading comprehension. Exactly which part of "So according to your logic, " do you have difficulty understanding that induced you to just pretend that part wasn't there when you attempted to paraphrase my argument so carelessly?

The only person exhibiting poor reading skills is you. You made the claim “according to your logic men should get to define how pregnancies go”. Toni’s logic does not necessarily imply that. Instead of referring to your question as illogical I asked my question about your question.

Instead of referring to my question as illogical, which could have led to a substantive and productive discussion of whether Toni's logic necessarily implied that, you chose to ask your stupid strawman beat-your-wife question about what you say I think the necessary result from "men start pregnancies" is, and left the question I actually asked Toni completely out of it. So here we are. The poor choice you made, about how to deal with your opinion that Toni’s logic does not necessarily imply that, is all on you.

You were not asking me to show my work.

You are mistaken.

On what planet does you asking me why I think something I don't think and didn't in any way imply qualify as asking me to show my work? You were simply putting words in my mouth.

It was not an insulting deflection.

Insinuating someone thinks it is ok to beat their spouse

But I didn't insinuate anything of the sort -- what I wrote was blatant sarcasm. I was obviously insinuating that you had asked me a "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question and deserved to be paid back in like coin.

is insulting to most people regardless of your intent.

And? I didn't offer an opinion about whether what I said was insulting.

You insinuated without cause that I believe something that's patently stupid, thereby insulting me. So if you feel my response was insulting, what of it? You still have no cause for complaint.

How about showing your work?

Well why didn't you just say that in the first place if that's what you wanted to talk about?

Toni wrote "I (inadvertently) started this thread and I get to define how I want the conversation to go." She appeared to be implicitly relying on the premise that the person who starts something derives from that act of initiation some special authority to define what subsequently happens to it, along the lines of the Christian trope about potters and pots. So I simply combined that premise with her other oft-repeated premise about who starts pregnancies, and I "did the math".

So if you think Toni's logic doesn't imply that “men get to define how pregnancies go” follows from ”men start pregnancies”, what implicit premise do you think she was relying on to take her from her explicit premise to her conclusion?

 

[laughing dog]

…..

I am not interested in hearing your excuses for your misinterpretation and using an insulting response. They were unconvincing and boring the first time.

Toni wrote "I (inadvertently) started this thread and I get to define how I want the conversation to go." She appeared to be implicitly relying on the premise that the person who starts something derives from that act of initiation some special authority to define what subsequently happens to it, along the lines of the Christian trope about potters and pots. So I simply combined that premise with her other oft-repeated premise about who starts pregnancies, and I "did the math.

"I pulled my question out of my ass” is more to the point.

 

[lostone]

We all make mistakes. Having an Abortion assumes we can correct some of them.

 

[Toni]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

If one of the people you are referring to is me, I'm baffled as to why you feel that way. I've said men and women are equally responsible (biologically and morally) for pregnancy.

Okay, let me try this again.

You say "men and women are equally responsible for pregnancy"
You support this with reference to pregnancy requiring both an egg and a sperm

Toni and I say "women are considered way more responsible for preventing pregnancy than men"
And we make the argument that because men have a very large degree of control over when they ejaculate, and because the means of preventing pregnancy are very, very easy for men to employ in multiple ways, men should have more responsibility for preventing pregnancy than they do now.

So, first off, do you get that you're talking about something different than what Toni and I are talking about?
You are talking about responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about responsibility for preventing pregnancy.
You are talking about men and women having equal biological responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about men and women having very unequal social responsibility for preventing pregnancy.

Small correction: biologically speaking g, it requires a sperm(male) to fertilize an ovum( female) plus the right conditions for the fertilized egg to properly divide and then implant in the uterine lining instead of being expelled or implanting inappropriately elsewhere, plus all of the female parent’s organs and tissues to continue to provide needed nutrition, waste management, etc. for the embryo to gestate until it is a fully developed fetus at 40 weeks gestation, at which point the female parent exerts tremendous effort and energy and experiences tremendous risk while doing so and gives birth to a brand new human being.

Post ejaculation, the male parent has zero to do with pregnancy. He can be supportive or absent but his biological role is over in a couple of minutes.

All of that aside, I admit that I am flummoxed to grasp how any pregnancy can occur if the male does not ejaculate inside or near a vagina. The process of inserting a penis into a vagina does require effort on the part of the male parent. The female parent need make little or no effort and indeed, might seriously attempt to prevent the penis from
entering her vagina.

Surely none of this is new information to anyone or controversial in any way.

Most of this thread has been men assuring me that they have no responsibility for preventing a pregnancy.

@Emily Lake
Quote mining people explaining that both parties have responsibility in no way supports the claim that @Toni made here.

Tom

I dunno. Those were some very direct quotes that absolutely supported my claim.

Even if it isn’t convenient to you.

 

[Metaphor]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

If one of the people you are referring to is me, I'm baffled as to why you feel that way. I've said men and women are equally responsible (biologically and morally) for pregnancy.

Okay, let me try this again.

You say "men and women are equally responsible for pregnancy"
You support this with reference to pregnancy requiring both an egg and a sperm

Toni and I say "women are considered way more responsible for preventing pregnancy than men"
And we make the argument that because men have a very large degree of control over when they ejaculate, and because the means of preventing pregnancy are very, very easy for men to employ in multiple ways, men should have more responsibility for preventing pregnancy than they do now.

So, first off, do you get that you're talking about something different than what Toni and I are talking about?
You are talking about responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about responsibility for preventing pregnancy.
You are talking about men and women having equal biological responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about men and women having very unequal social responsibility for preventing pregnancy.

Small correction: biologically speaking g, it requires a sperm(male) to fertilize an ovum( female) plus the right conditions for the fertilized egg to properly divide and then implant in the uterine lining instead of being expelled or implanting inappropriately elsewhere, plus all of the female parent’s organs and tissues to continue to provide needed nutrition, waste management, etc. for the embryo to gestate until it is a fully developed fetus at 40 weeks gestation, at which point the female parent exerts tremendous effort and energy and experiences tremendous risk while doing so and gives birth to a brand new human being.

Post ejaculation, the male parent has zero to do with pregnancy. He can be supportive or absent but his biological role is over in a couple of minutes.

All of that aside, I admit that I am flummoxed to grasp how any pregnancy can occur if the male does not ejaculate inside or near a vagina.

Really, you are completely ignorant of IVF?

 

[Toni]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

If one of the people you are referring to is me, I'm baffled as to why you feel that way. I've said men and women are equally responsible (biologically and morally) for pregnancy.

Okay, let me try this again.

You say "men and women are equally responsible for pregnancy"
You support this with reference to pregnancy requiring both an egg and a sperm

Toni and I say "women are considered way more responsible for preventing pregnancy than men"
And we make the argument that because men have a very large degree of control over when they ejaculate, and because the means of preventing pregnancy are very, very easy for men to employ in multiple ways, men should have more responsibility for preventing pregnancy than they do now.

So, first off, do you get that you're talking about something different than what Toni and I are talking about?
You are talking about responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about responsibility for preventing pregnancy.
You are talking about men and women having equal biological responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about men and women having very unequal social responsibility for preventing pregnancy.

Small correction: biologically speaking g, it requires a sperm(male) to fertilize an ovum( female) plus the right conditions for the fertilized egg to properly divide and then implant in the uterine lining instead of being expelled or implanting inappropriately elsewhere, plus all of the female parent’s organs and tissues to continue to provide needed nutrition, waste management, etc. for the embryo to gestate until it is a fully developed fetus at 40 weeks gestation, at which point the female parent exerts tremendous effort and energy and experiences tremendous risk while doing so and gives birth to a brand new human being.

Post ejaculation, the male parent has zero to do with pregnancy. He can be supportive or absent but his biological role is over in a couple of minutes.

All of that aside, I admit that I am flummoxed to grasp how any pregnancy can occur if the male does not ejaculate inside or near a vagina.

Really, you are completely ignorant of IVF?

Which does not occur if some man did not ejaculate.

Also besides the point as women undergoing IVF want to become pregnant. Presumably the man wanted to procreate as well.

 

[Metaphor]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

If one of the people you are referring to is me, I'm baffled as to why you feel that way. I've said men and women are equally responsible (biologically and morally) for pregnancy.

Okay, let me try this again.

You say "men and women are equally responsible for pregnancy"
You support this with reference to pregnancy requiring both an egg and a sperm

Toni and I say "women are considered way more responsible for preventing pregnancy than men"
And we make the argument that because men have a very large degree of control over when they ejaculate, and because the means of preventing pregnancy are very, very easy for men to employ in multiple ways, men should have more responsibility for preventing pregnancy than they do now.

So, first off, do you get that you're talking about something different than what Toni and I are talking about?
You are talking about responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about responsibility for preventing pregnancy.
You are talking about men and women having equal biological responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about men and women having very unequal social responsibility for preventing pregnancy.

Small correction: biologically speaking g, it requires a sperm(male) to fertilize an ovum( female) plus the right conditions for the fertilized egg to properly divide and then implant in the uterine lining instead of being expelled or implanting inappropriately elsewhere, plus all of the female parent’s organs and tissues to continue to provide needed nutrition, waste management, etc. for the embryo to gestate until it is a fully developed fetus at 40 weeks gestation, at which point the female parent exerts tremendous effort and energy and experiences tremendous risk while doing so and gives birth to a brand new human being.

Post ejaculation, the male parent has zero to do with pregnancy. He can be supportive or absent but his biological role is over in a couple of minutes.

All of that aside, I admit that I am flummoxed to grasp how any pregnancy can occur if the male does not ejaculate inside or near a vagina.

Really, you are completely ignorant of IVF?

Which does not occur if some man did not ejaculate.

Yeah, you keep saying that. And we keep saying "so what"? It doesn't somehow make men more responsible for pregnancy, either biologically or morally.

Also besides the point as women undergoing IVF want to become pregnant. Presumably the man wanted to procreate as well.

Not really. I know a woman who donated an egg to an infertile couple (a lot more taxing than jerking off in to a cup, though I don't think she had to aim). She already had two children; it was an act of altruism.

 

[Toni]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

If one of the people you are referring to is me, I'm baffled as to why you feel that way. I've said men and women are equally responsible (biologically and morally) for pregnancy.

Okay, let me try this again.

You say "men and women are equally responsible for pregnancy"
You support this with reference to pregnancy requiring both an egg and a sperm

Toni and I say "women are considered way more responsible for preventing pregnancy than men"
And we make the argument that because men have a very large degree of control over when they ejaculate, and because the means of preventing pregnancy are very, very easy for men to employ in multiple ways, men should have more responsibility for preventing pregnancy than they do now.

So, first off, do you get that you're talking about something different than what Toni and I are talking about?
You are talking about responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about responsibility for preventing pregnancy.
You are talking about men and women having equal biological responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about men and women having very unequal social responsibility for preventing pregnancy.

Small correction: biologically speaking g, it requires a sperm(male) to fertilize an ovum( female) plus the right conditions for the fertilized egg to properly divide and then implant in the uterine lining instead of being expelled or implanting inappropriately elsewhere, plus all of the female parent’s organs and tissues to continue to provide needed nutrition, waste management, etc. for the embryo to gestate until it is a fully developed fetus at 40 weeks gestation, at which point the female parent exerts tremendous effort and energy and experiences tremendous risk while doing so and gives birth to a brand new human being.

Post ejaculation, the male parent has zero to do with pregnancy. He can be supportive or absent but his biological role is over in a couple of minutes.

All of that aside, I admit that I am flummoxed to grasp how any pregnancy can occur if the male does not ejaculate inside or near a vagina.

Really, you are completely ignorant of IVF?

Which does not occur if some man did not ejaculate.

Yeah, you keep saying that. And we keep saying "so what"? It doesn't somehow make men more responsible for pregnancy, either biologically or morally.

Also besides the point as women undergoing IVF want to become pregnant. Presumably the man wanted to procreate as well.

Not really. I know a woman who donated an egg to an infertile couple (a lot more taxing than jerking off in to a cup, though I don't think she had to aim). She already had two children; it was an act of altruism.

Yes, biologically, reproduction is far more taxing for a woman than for a man, no matter the circumstance.

As for the woman who donated the egg? Presumably some man ejaculated to provide the sperm to fertilize the ovum which was allowed to grow and divide sufficiently to be optimal size to implant into the woman. So, two women went through a great deal: hormone tracking and therapy, surgery. The guy jerked off. Which was necessary to cause the pregnancy. Not sufficient but necessary.

 

[Bomb#20]

Most of this thread has been men assuring me that they have no responsibility for preventing a pregnancy.

@Emily Lake
Quote mining people explaining that both parties have responsibility in no way supports the claim that @Toni made here.

Tom

I dunno. Those were some very direct quotes that absolutely supported my claim.

Even if it isn’t convenient to you.

Those were some very direct excerpts from posts, with which Emily helpfully provided links so anyone can click on them to check whether the full context contradicts your claim. Which I did, and which they did.

Where did anyone say that?
Here on this forum?

You let a penis in, the expectation should be that there will be sperm unless you have previously agreed on withdrawal or have been told there is no sperm.

[Click...]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

How exactly does a woman refuse to allow sperm to be released into her vagina? Walk me through how you think this works, please.

Most sperm ends up in her vagina through consensual activity.

Uh huh. And do you think that consensual sex automatically implies "Yay, please cum inside me!"?

Or do you think that perhaps, just perhaps, there's a social expectation that women should be the ones who have to always be responsible about ensuring they don't get pregnant, and that men are excused from that responsibility altogether?

Did you even bother to read the article I linked?

You let a penis in, the expectation should be that there will be sperm unless you have previously agreed on withdrawal or have been told there is no sperm.

As you can see, the full context contains Loren saying "A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it."; it does not contain Loren assuring you that men "have no responsibility for preventing a pregnancy."

etc.

 

[TSwizzle]

All of that aside, I admit that I am flummoxed to grasp how any pregnancy can occur if the male does not ejaculate inside or near a vagina. The process of inserting a penis into a vagina does require effort on the part of the male parent. The female parent need make little or no effort and indeed, might seriously attempt to prevent the penis from
entering her vagina.

Surely none of this is new information to anyone or controversial in any way.

Correct, none of that is new information to anyone nor is it controversial in anyway. You’re doing a sterling job of making sure no new information or new controversies are introduced to confuse things.

 

[Toni]

All of that aside, I admit that I am flummoxed to grasp how any pregnancy can occur if the male does not ejaculate inside or near a vagina. The process of inserting a penis into a vagina does require effort on the part of the male parent. The female parent need make little or no effort and indeed, might seriously attempt to prevent the penis from
entering her vagina.

Surely none of this is new information to anyone or controversial in any way.

Correct, none of that is new information to anyone nor is it controversial in anyway. You’re doing a sterling job of making sure no new information or new controversies are introduced to confuse things.

Nothing I’ve written is new information—something that I’ve pointed out myself. More than once.

I don’t see how anything I’ve written is controversial. At all.

Yet here you are, telling me what I’ve already said: nothing I’ve written is new information.

Do why ya gotta argue about it?.

 

[TSwizzle]

All of that aside, I admit that I am flummoxed to grasp how any pregnancy can occur if the male does not ejaculate inside or near a vagina. The process of inserting a penis into a vagina does require effort on the part of the male parent. The female parent need make little or no effort and indeed, might seriously attempt to prevent the penis from
entering her vagina.

Surely none of this is new information to anyone or controversial in any way.

Correct, none of that is new information to anyone nor is it controversial in anyway. You’re doing a sterling job of making sure no new information or new controversies are introduced to confuse things.

Nothing I’ve written is new information—something that I’ve pointed out myself. More than once.

I don’t see how anything I’ve written is controversial. At all.

Yet here you are, telling me what I’ve already said: nothing I’ve written is new information.

Do why ya gotta argue about it?.

Argue? Who’s arguing? I agree, you did not post any new information and continue to not post any new information.

 

[Toni]

All of that aside, I admit that I am flummoxed to grasp how any pregnancy can occur if the male does not ejaculate inside or near a vagina. The process of inserting a penis into a vagina does require effort on the part of the male parent. The female parent need make little or no effort and indeed, might seriously attempt to prevent the penis from
entering her vagina.

Surely none of this is new information to anyone or controversial in any way.

Correct, none of that is new information to anyone nor is it controversial in anyway. You’re doing a sterling job of making sure no new information or new controversies are introduced to confuse things.

Nothing I’ve written is new information—something that I’ve pointed out myself. More than once.

I don’t see how anything I’ve written is controversial. At all.

Yet here you are, telling me what I’ve already said: nothing I’ve written is new information.

Do why ya gotta argue about it?.

Argue? Who’s arguing? I agree, you did not post any new information and continue to not post any new information.

I get it. You just have to have the last word.

 

[TSwizzle]

All of that aside, I admit that I am flummoxed to grasp how any pregnancy can occur if the male does not ejaculate inside or near a vagina. The process of inserting a penis into a vagina does require effort on the part of the male parent. The female parent need make little or no effort and indeed, might seriously attempt to prevent the penis from
entering her vagina.

Surely none of this is new information to anyone or controversial in any way.

Correct, none of that is new information to anyone nor is it controversial in anyway. You’re doing a sterling job of making sure no new information or new controversies are introduced to confuse things.

Nothing I’ve written is new information—something that I’ve pointed out myself. More than once.

I don’t see how anything I’ve written is controversial. At all.

Yet here you are, telling me what I’ve already said: nothing I’ve written is new information.

Do why ya gotta argue about it?.

Argue? Who’s arguing? I agree, you did not post any new information and continue to not post any new information.

I get it. You just have to have the last word.

Oh I get it, you need to get your post count up. Or you have Tourette Syndrome? Or is there a point to you posting no new information ? Am I missing something? I feel I’m missing something.

 

[Patooka]

Oh I get it, you need to get your post count up. Or you have Tourette Syndrome? Or is there a point to you posting no new information ? Am I missing something? I feel I’m missing something.

Relax, mate. You are definitely missing something. You don't need to be uncertain about that. I'll be happy to educate you if you are still confused. Brandon won't mind.

 

[IIDB Staff]

This thread has left discussion stage and is being locked as end-of-life.