Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[bilby]

Of course. Men are lust driven pigs, women are pure and innocent violated by a man's penis.

Women are not supposed to ex[experience lust, they really do not want sex.

I do apologize but are you trying to be sarcastic or just stupid?

 

[Metaphor]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

How exactly does a woman refuse to allow sperm to be released into her vagina? Walk me through how you think this works, please.

Most sperm ends up in her vagina through consensual activity.

Uh huh. And do you think that consensual sex automatically implies "Yay, please cum inside me!"?

If you consent to (bareback!) penis-in-vagina sex, and you do not specifically discuss details, it seems to me not at all implicit permission to have a man ejaculate into your vagina during that act.

Or do you think that perhaps, just perhaps, there's a social expectation that women should be the ones who have to always be responsible about ensuring they don't get pregnant, and that men are excused from that responsibility altogether?

Nature 'excused' men from the responsibility--men can't get pregnant no matter what a man or woman does to him.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And of course the coil. Wriggle all you like.

There are also vasectomies.

Yep. Quick procedure causing a couple of days of tenderness and no other side effects. Easily reversible.

<Thumps Emily with a medical textbook>
So much wrong here.

Details?

Typically no other side effects, but there can be.

And it's not easily reversible--the longer it has been the less likely it is to be reversible.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

How exactly does a woman refuse to allow sperm to be released into her vagina? Walk me through how you think this works, please.

Most sperm ends up in her vagina through consensual activity.

Most sperm does not end up in anyone's vagina, consensual or not. Technically speaking.

You're weaseling here--obviously I was talking about the sperm that does end up in the vagina, I am saying most of it gets there consensually.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

Honestly? If women could just tell the guy not to release his sperm inside her—and enforce it—there would be very few unintended pregnancies and so women could dispense with birth control that is expensive, inconvenient, comes with varying degrees of side effects, etc.

But women do not control men’s ejaculations.

Most unintended pregnancies are from consensual sex.

Most is not all.

Women have plenty of sex without risking pregnancy. In fact, a woman can have as much sex as she likes without becoming pregnant so long as no man is involved. It's only when sperm is deposited within proximity to an available egg that there's a potential pregnancy.

Which has nothing to do with my point.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

Honestly? If women could just tell the guy not to release his sperm inside her—and enforce it—there would be very few unintended pregnancies and so women could dispense with birth control that is expensive, inconvenient, comes with varying degrees of side effects, etc.

But women do not control men’s ejaculations.

Most unintended pregnancies are from consensual sex.

Do you have an actual point or is just another irrelevant interjection?

Your posts miss the real point - that the woman bears the responsibility of carrying the fetus to term.

You're moving the goalposts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

How exactly does a woman refuse to allow sperm to be released into her vagina? Walk me through how you think this works, please.

Most sperm ends up in her vagina through consensual activity.

Uh huh. And do you think that consensual sex automatically implies "Yay, please cum inside me!"?

Or do you think that perhaps, just perhaps, there's a social expectation that women should be the ones who have to always be responsible about ensuring they don't get pregnant, and that men are excused from that responsibility altogether?

Did you even bother to read the article I linked?

You let a penis in, the expectation should be that there will be sperm unless you have previously agreed on withdrawal or have been told there is no sperm.

 

[Toni]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

Honestly? If women could just tell the guy not to release his sperm inside her—and enforce it—there would be very few unintended pregnancies and so women could dispense with birth control that is expensive, inconvenient, comes with varying degrees of side effects, etc.

But women do not control men’s ejaculations.

Most unintended pregnancies are from consensual sex.

Most is not all.

Women have plenty of sex without risking pregnancy. In fact, a woman can have as much sex as she likes without becoming pregnant so long as no man is involved. It's only when sperm is deposited within proximity to an available egg that there's a potential pregnancy.

Which has nothing to do with my point.

But it has everything to do with my premise which started this unfortunate derail that got split into its own thread: every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. If men would just control themselves, women would not have to worry about unwanted pregnancies.

After all, women can enjoy a lot of sex that has not a single thing to do with a penis or ejaculating.

 

[Metaphor]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

Honestly? If women could just tell the guy not to release his sperm inside her—and enforce it—there would be very few unintended pregnancies and so women could dispense with birth control that is expensive, inconvenient, comes with varying degrees of side effects, etc.

But women do not control men’s ejaculations.

Most unintended pregnancies are from consensual sex.

Most is not all.

Women have plenty of sex without risking pregnancy. In fact, a woman can have as much sex as she likes without becoming pregnant so long as no man is involved. It's only when sperm is deposited within proximity to an available egg that there's a potential pregnancy.

Which has nothing to do with my point.

But it has everything to do with my premise which started this unfortunate derail that got split into its own thread: every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. If men would just control themselves, women would not have to worry about unwanted pregnancies.

After all, women can enjoy a lot of sex that has not a single thing to do with a penis or ejaculating.

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

 

[Toni]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

Honestly? If women could just tell the guy not to release his sperm inside her—and enforce it—there would be very few unintended pregnancies and so women could dispense with birth control that is expensive, inconvenient, comes with varying degrees of side effects, etc.

But women do not control men’s ejaculations.

Most unintended pregnancies are from consensual sex.

Most is not all.

Women have plenty of sex without risking pregnancy. In fact, a woman can have as much sex as she likes without becoming pregnant so long as no man is involved. It's only when sperm is deposited within proximity to an available egg that there's a potential pregnancy.

Which has nothing to do with my point.

But it has everything to do with my premise which started this unfortunate derail that got split into its own thread: every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. If men would just control themselves, women would not have to worry about unwanted pregnancies.

After all, women can enjoy a lot of sex that has not a single thing to do with a penis or ejaculating.

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

If men want to avoid fathering a child they do not want, they should avoid penis-vagina sex.

 

[TSwizzle]

If men want to avoid fathering a child they do not want, they should avoid penis-vagina sex.

If women want to avoid getting pregnant they should keep their panties on and avoid penis-vagina sex.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If this thread was a horse...

 

[TomC]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

How exactly does a woman refuse to allow sperm to be released into her vagina? Walk me through how you think this works, please.

Starts with saying "No".
Move on to " No, I'm not going over to your place."

Another biggie is "No, I don't need a drink."

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure it's usually irresponsible guys who cause the problems.
Very Very sure!
I'm a guy. I know what we're like.

But not always. Women saying "No" is the bottom line. Go past that line and it's a crime, rape. Doesn't matter if it results in a pregnancy or not, it's a crime.

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

If men want to avoid fathering a child they do not want, they should avoid penis-vagina sex.

Why is it that when y'all say things that Tom the Prude agrees with, it doesn't seem like you're agreeing with me?

The biggest reason for crisis pregnancies is irresponsible sex. Irresponsible sex of a specific kind, Penis in Vagina sex.

How about we stop acting and talking about PiV sex as an entitlement or something that just happens? Recognize it as a powerful force in humans and carrys a big risk?
How about that?

It used to be called "propriety". People who weren't willing and able to take care of children were expected to avoid situations that might result creating children. Propriety came to be seen as conservative oppression and kinda went away since the 60s.

I don't see that as an improvement.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

You let a penis in, the expectation should be that there will be sperm unless you have previously agreed on withdrawal or have been told there is no sperm.

Let me get this straight. In your view, if a woman allows a man to have sex with her, then she is completely 100% responsible for the risk and the burden of his sperm. The man is absolved of responsibility, and it's completely on the shoulders of the woman to make sure she doesn't "get herself knocked up"?

Are you really going for "If you don't want the risk of getting preggers, don't have sex, you slutty slutty slut-face"?

 

[Emily Lake]

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

So the choice is... Either women are held 100% responsible for the outcome, or they shouldn't have sex ever. Men bear none of the responsibility... they just get the pleasure and the fun. If a chick gets herself knocked up, well, that's her fault for having sex, right?

 

[Toni]

A woman ( or a man) can go to someone’s place without anticipating or desiring or agreeing to sex. A woman ( or a man) can have a drink or several without anticipating, desiring or agreeing to sex. A woman ( or man) can be falling down drunk and not anticipate, desire or agree to sex. Indeed, consent to sex cannot be given under such conditions.

Sex is a powerful biological drive, and one that is necessary for the survival of the species. But human beings are not merely animals. We have our own wishes, hopes, dreams, ambitions, needs, desires. We expect autonomy over our bodies, to be able to make decisions, within the realm of reality, about how our bodies are used, what medical care we receive. Ethics and economics are limiting factors. Medical ethics preclude a medical provider from amputating a leg just because the person doesn’t care for that leg, for instance.

However, this does not apply if you are a woman. You’ve touched upon the misogynistic idea that women should expect sex ( rape) if they go to someone’s place or have too much to drink or even a drink. Such ideas are entirely misogynistic. After all, if your boss asked you to stop by his place to pick up some papers or go over a project or even have some drinks, you would not anticipate that you would be expected to provide whatever sex your boss wanted. Or few men would and relatively few men would face sexual assault under such conditions, much less condemnation or blame for doing such a stupid thing. Much less be expected to carry any resulting pregnancy, whatever implications to health and well being might result.

Women are still judged, as you have, as others in this thread have done, for affording themselves of basic human rights accorded to adult males: the right to go to someone’s place, the right to have a drink or several without being subjected to sexual assault.

And the right to determine whether or not to accept the risks to health, wellbeing, economic, social and relational stability; the risks to future plans and personal wants and needs.

Men are not subjected to scrutiny or condemnation for their medical decisions.

But society fully expects to be able to make medical decisions for women—and then to condemn them for the pregnancy society insists she carry.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You let a penis in, the expectation should be that there will be sperm unless you have previously agreed on withdrawal or have been told there is no sperm.

Let me get this straight. In your view, if a woman allows a man to have sex with her, then she is completely 100% responsible for the risk and the burden of his sperm.

In general, the guys in the thread are saying men and women are both responsible for pregnancies resulting from consensual relations, but not what that actually means to be "responsible" which should be the actual topic.

 

[TomC]

Let me get this straight. In your view, if a woman allows a man to have sex with her, then she is completely 100% responsible for the risk and the burden of his sperm. The man is absolved of responsibility, and it's completely on the shoulders of the woman to make sure she doesn't "get herself knocked up"?

How about this.

We leave out the "she is completely 100% responsible" and recognize that there's a bunch of responsibility here.
It takes two to tango, as it were.
Tom

 

[TSwizzle]

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

So the choice is... Either women are held 100% responsible for the outcome, or they shouldn't have sex ever. Men bear none of the responsibility... they just get the pleasure and the fun. If a chick gets herself knocked up, well, that's her fault for having sex, right?

The discussion wasn't about who is responsible for the outcome (a baby), it was more about who is responsible for getting pregnant. I thought.

 

[Toni]

Let me get this straight. In your view, if a woman allows a man to have sex with her, then she is completely 100% responsible for the risk and the burden of his sperm. The man is absolved of responsibility, and it's completely on the shoulders of the woman to make sure she doesn't "get herself knocked up"?

How about this.

We leave out the "she is completely 100% responsible" and recognize that there's a bunch of responsibility here.
It takes two to tango, as it were.
Tom

No, it doesn't really.