Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[TomC]

Getting men to take a more active and responsible role in reducing unwanted pregnancies will absolutely reduce abortions. That's the entire fucking point of both my and Toni's positions in this thread!

Me too.

But when I mention it I get a bunch of b.s.

Because instead of dividing responsibility up by sex, I refer to people. I'm not sufficiently gender bigoted to have an opinion that matters.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Getting men to take a more active and responsible role in reducing unwanted pregnancies will absolutely reduce abortions. That's the entire fucking point of both my and Toni's positions in this thread!

Me too.

But when I mention it I get a bunch of b.s.

Because instead of dividing responsibility up by sex, I refer to people. I'm not sufficiently gender bigoted to have an opinion that matters.
Tom

Having responsibility is not confined to those who have a uterus and can get pregnant. Trying to cast aspersions on people because they point out simple biological facts that hurt your feelings is not gender bigotry but crying fake tears about just may be.

 

[Emily Lake]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

 

[TomC]

Getting men to take a more active and responsible role in reducing unwanted pregnancies will absolutely reduce abortions. That's the entire fucking point of both my and Toni's positions in this thread!

Me too.

But when I mention it I get a bunch of b.s.

Because instead of dividing responsibility up by sex, I refer to people. I'm not sufficiently gender bigoted to have an opinion that matters.
Tom

Having responsibility is not confined to those who have a uterus and can get pregnant. Trying to cast aspersions on people because they point out simple biological facts that hurt your feelings is not gender bigotry but crying fake tears about just may be.

I'm calling bullshit.

Nowhere have I suggested that responsibility is "confined to those who have a uterus".

Quite the opposite, I keep pointing out that it takes both parties to make a baby. You start screaming "Rape".

Go back and reread the first post in this thread. Show me where you recognized joint responsibility anywhere in this thread.

I'm calling bullshit.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Getting men to take a more active and responsible role in reducing unwanted pregnancies will absolutely reduce abortions. That's the entire fucking point of both my and Toni's positions in this thread!

Me too.

But when I mention it I get a bunch of b.s.

Because instead of dividing responsibility up by sex, I refer to people. I'm not sufficiently gender bigoted to have an opinion that matters.
Tom

Having responsibility is not confined to those who have a uterus and can get pregnant. Trying to cast aspersions on people because they point out simple biological facts that hurt your feelings is not gender bigotry but crying fake tears about just may be.

I'm calling bullshit.

Nowhere have I suggested that responsibility is "confined to those who have a uterus".

Quite the opposite, I keep pointing out that it takes both parties to make a baby. You start screaming "Rape".

Go back and reread the first post in this thread. Show me where you recognized joint responsibility anywhere in this thread.

I'm calling bullshit.
Tom

Well, I wrote the first post in this thread. Unintentionally. Most of this thread has been men assuring me that they have no responsibility for preventing a pregnancy.

That bullshit you're smelling might just be arising from somewhat closer to home. May be coming from your weird and disingenuous description of this thread, with particular emphasis on my comments about rape being a case where women have zero say about whether or not a man ejaculates inside her vagina. Or elsewhere but we're talking pregnancy here, so we'll just stick with vaginas.

 

[TomC]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

I'm baffled that you don't see us ascribing responsibility to all involved parties.

I assume it's because you are too feminist to recognize the possibility that women might be anything other than weak willed vessels. We do, and a bunch of crap for suggesting that women can and do make choices.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Most of this thread has been men assuring me that they have no responsibility for preventing a pregnancy.

I'm calling bullshit.

Show me one post where a man suggested that men have no responsibility.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

I'm baffled that you don't see us ascribing responsibility to all involved parties.

I see you giving vague lip service to "both sides" while also vehemently objecting to the framing of the topic as every pregnancy starts with an ejaculation. And you seem to have just completely ignored the salient points of my posts, as well as Toni's. Like, ferinstance, how socially the burden is on women. Biologically both parties are involved... but socially, women are expected to do all of the work to prevent a pregnancy, and if she ends up pregnant the scrutiny is on what she didn't do and what she should have done differently in order to keep herself from getting pregnant. That scrutiny is not directed at men. Men are not EXPECTED to take steps before sex to ensure a pregnancy doesn't occur.

Seriously, you're mimicking some of the words, but you're completely missing the point. You're "All Lives Mattering" the topic of pregnancy here.

I assume it's because you are too feminist to recognize the possibility that women might be anything other than weak willed vessels. We do, and a bunch of crap for suggesting that women can and do make choices.
Tom

Okay buddy. I seem to have hurt your ego somehow, even though YOU aren't a pregnancy risk at all, so of course, it's perfectly reasonable for you to just "oh evil feminazi" this discussion. Sure, sure, Mr. Man, tell me how I'm feministing wrong. Go ahead and educate poor little girly silly me on how my feminism is the "real" sexism in the world.

Your parting shot is pretty much a meme, dude.

 

[Emily Lake]

Most of this thread has been men assuring me that they have no responsibility for preventing a pregnancy.

I'm calling bullshit.

Show me one post where a man suggested that men have no responsibility.
Tom

Seriously... when a man says "If she didn't want to risk pregnancy, she should've kept her legs shut" what do YOU think is being said there?

 

[Metaphor]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

If one of the people you are referring to is me, I'm baffled as to why you feel that way. I've said men and women are equally responsible (biologically and morally) for pregnancy.

 

[TomC]

Most of this thread has been men assuring me that they have no responsibility for preventing a pregnancy.

I'm calling bullshit.

Show me one post where a man suggested that men have no responsibility.
Tom

Seriously... when a man says "If she didn't want to risk pregnancy, she should've kept her legs shut" what do YOU think is being said there?

Where did anyone say that?
Here on this forum?

I don't think it's happened. People, including me, have said "THEY" should keep their legs closed if they want to avoid the burdens of parenthood. That's everyone, men and women.

And, yeah, it's a big world. I'm sure you can find people putting all the responsibility on women. You can also find people claiming that all heterosex is rape. Doesn't mean much.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And the thread about child trafficking that the kids not aborted and still not wanted get funneled into is absolutely stagnant after a couple posts.

Of course that involves actually recognizing that there is a vast network of "religious affiliates" who are child trafficking.

A fundamental reality of the internet is that when everyone agrees threads go nowhere.

Nobody's defending how adoption is handled now, thus your thread about how fucked up it is quickly died out.

And here inlies the problem: advocates for adoption over abortion MUST be made to defend it, to answer in defense of this option if they wish to peddle it.

But they don't need to defend the current approach, just the concept.

Never mind that the current system is basically inevitable with abortion being legal--supply does not remotely meet demand so something has to limit it. Such limits always come down to either money (the default, what we see now), lottery (common in access to wilderness areas--you want to go somewhere where more people want to go than are acceptable, you put in for a permit and they conduct a drawing to see who gets permits) or government fiat (which is even worse than the money approach.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

I'm baffled that you don't see us ascribing responsibility to all involved parties.

I see you giving vague lip service to "both sides" while also vehemently objecting to the framing of the topic as every pregnancy starts with an ejaculation. And you seem to have just completely ignored the salient points of my posts, as well as Toni's. Like, ferinstance, how socially the burden is on women. Biologically both parties are involved... but socially, women are expected to do all of the work to prevent a pregnancy, and if she ends up pregnant the scrutiny is on what she didn't do and what she should have done differently in order to keep herself from getting pregnant. That scrutiny is not directed at men. Men are not EXPECTED to take steps before sex to ensure a pregnancy doesn't occur.

The problem here is that your position sounds far from equal. Every pregnancy starts from intercourse. Every party which consented to that intercourse is responsible.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most of this thread has been men assuring me that they have no responsibility for preventing a pregnancy.

I'm calling bullshit.

Show me one post where a man suggested that men have no responsibility.
Tom

Seriously... when a man says "If she didn't want to risk pregnancy, she should've kept her legs shut" what do YOU think is being said there?

Showing that your argument works both ways.

 

[Bomb#20]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

Well, it might have something to do with this...

It beggars belief that this is still being debated. When a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex she is as responsible for any resulting conception as the man who ejaculated sperm into her.

And we've come right back around to "If a chick doesn't want to get herself preggers, she should just keep her legs shut". All of the responsibility for avoiding a pregnancy is being placed on the woman.

Metaphor said the man and the woman are equally responsible. And you read what he said, and quoted it back to him, and then immediately claimed he was placing all the responsibility on the woman. For the love of god, why would you expect anyone to take that sort of misrepresentation lying down? Of course he's offended! Wouldn't you be offended if somebody did it to you? But that in a nutshell is how this entire thread has been going, right from square one.

The underlying problem appears to be that you and Toni have been systematically conflating what thread participants actually say in their posts with your perception of what men in general say, and generally do. You have not been treating the people arguing with you as individuals, but as stand-in representatives of a category. The thread dynamic is a lot like a typical affirmative-action debate, in which one side advocates redressing historical injustices with preferential treatment for people from a historically-wronged category, the other side says people should be treated as individuals and judged by the same standards without regard to which group they're categorized as because it isn't fair to punish one person for the wrongdoings of some other person who looked like him, and then the pro-affirmative action side accuses the anti-affirmative-action side of wanting to exclude everyone from groups affirmative action is intended to help and accuses them of being motivated by personal animus and bigotry. It's not a conversational pattern likely to lead to anyone being persuaded.

 

[Toni]

Most of this thread has been men assuring me that they have no responsibility for preventing a pregnancy.

I'm calling bullshit.

Show me one post where a man suggested that men have no responsibility.
Tom

Seriously... when a man says "If she didn't want to risk pregnancy, she should've kept her legs shut" what do YOU think is being said there?

Showing that your argument works both ways.

I know that's what you think you're showing but it's really showing something else.

You are equating a woman being willing (or not) to have sex = a man willing to ejaculate inside a woman without wearing a condom.

There are many ways for heterosexual couples to enjoy sex with one another that do not involve the man ejaculating inside a vagina, or ejaculating inside a woman sans condom.

 

[Emily Lake]

Where did anyone say that?
Here on this forum?

You let a penis in, the expectation should be that there will be sperm unless you have previously agreed on withdrawal or have been told there is no sperm.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

If women want to avoid getting pregnant they should keep their panties on and avoid penis-vagina sex.

And if you didn't admit a penis to your vagina you would have a near zero risk of an unintended pregnancy.

When women consent to penis-in-vagina sex, they consent to the possibility that sperm will fertilise their ova.

If the woman 100% does not want to become pregnant, do not invite the penis in to the vagina.

So girls, keep your panties on and legs closed

If woman doesn't want to get pregnant she needs to not be having the penis in the vagina sexy time. She is responsible for the vagina and the egg.

Boo-hoo. That's the price women pay if they want the penis in the vagina sexy time.

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

That's a risk she chose to take.

Finally, you agree women can avoid getting pregnant by not having sex with a man.

 

[Emily Lake]

Honestly, I'm still baffled by why two gay guys seem to be so offended at women wanting men to take more responsibility for preventing pregnancies.

If one of the people you are referring to is me, I'm baffled as to why you feel that way. I've said men and women are equally responsible (biologically and morally) for pregnancy.

Okay, let me try this again.

You say "men and women are equally responsible for pregnancy"
You support this with reference to pregnancy requiring both an egg and a sperm

Toni and I say "women are considered way more responsible for preventing pregnancy than men"
And we make the argument that because men have a very large degree of control over when they ejaculate, and because the means of preventing pregnancy are very, very easy for men to employ in multiple ways, men should have more responsibility for preventing pregnancy than they do now.

So, first off, do you get that you're talking about something different than what Toni and I are talking about?
You are talking about responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about responsibility for preventing pregnancy.
You are talking about men and women having equal biological responsibility for pregnancy.
We are talking about men and women having very unequal social responsibility for preventing pregnancy.

 

[Emily Lake]

Most of this thread has been men assuring me that they have no responsibility for preventing a pregnancy.

I'm calling bullshit.

Show me one post where a man suggested that men have no responsibility.
Tom

Seriously... when a man says "If she didn't want to risk pregnancy, she should've kept her legs shut" what do YOU think is being said there?

Showing that your argument works both ways.

This demonstrates that you don't comprehend the core concept here.

 

[TomC]

Most of this thread has been men assuring me that they have no responsibility for preventing a pregnancy.

@Emily Lake
Quote mining people explaining that both parties have responsibility in no way supports the claim that @Toni made here.

Tom