Why you should vote for Trump

[TomC]

No. Biden just happens to be Trump’s main obstacle. If he drops out and Dems offer another candidate I’ll vote for them. My opposition to allowing Trump anywhere near any position of power in government, is unconditional.

At this point, the Democrats could run a dead rat on a stick and get my vote.

One big reason for that is that I don't want to see the genocide of Gaza or the destruction of Ukraine.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

I don’t want denial of reality to become any more normalized than it already is. The steady stream of hyper-amplified lies must be stopped at its source.

 

[Politesse]

Under what conditions would you consider it ethical to withhold a vote from Joe Biden?

In this situation?
Complete ignorance borne of immersion in Putin Party Propaganda might give excuse…

So your support of Biden is, in fact, unconditional?

No. Biden just happens to be Trump’s main obstacle. If he drops out and Dems offer another candidate I’ll vote for them. My opposition to allowing Trump anywhere near any position of power in government, is unconditional. There is no more dangerous scumbag on the planet.

Same thing. Biden is the party's choice, they paid a country's ransom to ensure that he would be. So, you support Biden unconditionally, because he is the chosen voice of the party you support unconditionally.

And that is your choice. But I am not of a like mind, and I surrender my conscience to no one without condition. That is unlikely to change, no matter how much "education" I receive, or however many bars of soap Swammerdami would like me to consume to shame me out of my thought crimes.

 

[Swammerdami]

Under what conditions would you consider it ethical to withhold a vote from Joe Biden?

In this situation?
Complete ignorance borne of immersion in Putin Party Propaganda might give excuse…

So your support of Biden is, in fact, unconditional?

Is this to be a discussion of metaphysics, logic, epistemology, or some other branch of philosophy? Perhaps we need a split to a philosophy sub-Forum.

But here in the Politics forum we know that this is the most important election in our lifetimes! We've heard this enough in recent decades to recall the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" -- but it really is true this time! Trump really is very likely to win, especially given that his supporters will engage in multiple forms of cheating.

Trump victory may signal the End of American Democracy. There are various dire threats besides just turning the U.S. government over to a psychotic traitor, and these other threats will be exacerbated with the Party of Treason, Hatred and Stupidity in charge: So it is NOT just hyperbole that has some thinkers worrying about The End of Western Civilization as We Know It.

If you were at a beach and only you could save a drowning child, would you "consider it ethical" to let the child drown? Do you shit in your neighbor's swimming pool?

NO, the only reason it might be "ethical" to withhold a vote from Joe Biden (at least if you vote in a swing state) is if you're too stupid to understand the dangers.

 

[Politesse]

Trump victory may signal the End of American Democracy. There are various dire threats besides just turning the U.S. government over to a psychotic traitor, and these other threats will be exacerbated with the Party of Treason, Hatred and Stupidity in charge: So it is NOT just hyperbole that has some thinkers worrying about The End of Western Civilization as We Know It.

If the only way to avoid the collapse of Western Civilization as We Know It is to cast a vote for candidate I don't support, American Democracy is already dead.

To your analogy, if 300 million people are watching a child drown on live tv and none of them move a muscle to help, but one politician claims he would have saved the kid and one of them claims he did save the kid, it doesn't make a lick of difference to the kid in the pool which liar I vote for in the next election cycle. The only thing that could have saved the kid is direct action, which is why, my friend, I trust the work of my own hands over a politician's handshake when it comes to social issues. Of course, it is within a politician's power to put a lifeguard over every pool in the country. But that would be expensive, so why would he? He has your unconditional support whether he does or not. And that's why American pools used to have lifeguards and now have unmanned lifegiard stations, in all but the most affluent of neighborhoods.

 

[TomC]

Same thing. Biden is the party's choice, they paid a country's ransom to ensure that he would be. So, you support Biden unconditionally, because he is the chosen voice of the party you support unconditionally.

Bullshit.
My support for decency, competence and morality is unconditional. For some time now, that's increasingly become the sole province of Democrats, especially in Washington DC.

You making that a partisan decision makes you look like the sort of ivory tower ideological purist that can be as destructive as the worst Trumpistas.

It didn't matter why someone wrote in Bernie Sanders on their ballot in 2016. They were voting to overturn RvW and you know that as well as I do.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Trump victory may signal the End of American Democracy. There are various dire threats besides just turning the U.S. government over to a psychotic traitor, and these other threats will be exacerbated with the Party of Treason, Hatred and Stupidity in charge: So it is NOT just hyperbole that has some thinkers worrying about The End of Western Civilization as We Know It.

If the only way to avoid the collapse of Western Civilization as We Know It is to cast a vote for candidate I don't support, American Democracy is already dead.

When it comes to POTUS we never had it.

And as the Republicans have circled the drain, ideologically and demographically, they've been busy trying desperately to end it permanently. Any one who doesn't vote for Biden is also voting to finish the job.

Sucks, but reality often does.
Tom

 

[Swammerdami]

NO, the only reason it might be "ethical" to withhold a vote from Joe Biden (at least if you vote in a swing state) is if you're too stupid to understand the dangers.

First, let me apologize to Politesse lest he^* was offended. This comment is certainly NOT directed at him*.
* - (I want to write "she/her" since Politesse IIRC is a feminine French noun. )

And in fact, giving Trump half a vote may be quite a "rational" thing to do. Let me explain.
I'll do that in my next post.

Again: sincere apologies to anyone that I accidentally offended.
Swammi

 

[Politesse]

When it comes to POTUS we never had it.

I know. But if that's the case, then pretending that the future of Western Democracy hinges on one person's vote is not just hyperbole but outright delusional.

 

[Politesse]

ivory tower ideological purist

Opposition to genocide, you mean? I think you've been reading the wrong history books, the "ivory tower" is usually the first in line to provide rational justifications for the unthinkable.

 

[Politesse]

First, let me apologize to Politesse lest he* was offended. This comment is certainly NOT directed at him*.
* - (I want to write "she/her" since Politesse IIRC is a feminine French noun. )

I most certainly am, and yes, it was. You wrote it to me directly, as a response to my post. You're just thinking better of it now. But I accept your apology (And I'm non-binary, so use whatever pronoun you prefer).

 

[Harry Bosch]

. But even if you live in California, I think you should treat votes with more respect.

Standing up for the right of a citizen to vote as they choose, not as they are told they must, is respecting the vote.

No one is attempting to tell anyone how they “must” vote, so this retort can safely be tossed on the straw heap.

But I'm "disrespecting the vote" if my informed loyalty to whomever the Democrats nominate is conditional?

I don't think that what you describe is "disrespecting the vote". I think that it's more disrespecting your positions. If you are pro-science, pro-environment, pro-women rights, pro-Palestinian rights, and etc you should be voting for the best alternative against Trump. And that is Biden.

Under what conditions would you consider it ethical to withhold a vote from Joe Biden?

That's an easy question for me. I'd not support Biden if he tried to overturn a lawful election. Period point stop. I think that defending democracy is the biggest issue for me. If Trump had succeeded, and the 2020 election moved to the states (and trump elected); our country would be vastly different than how it is today. Outside of that, I mostly vote for the party; not the individual at the top.

 

[TomC]

ivory tower ideological purist

Opposition to genocide, you mean? I think you've been reading the wrong history books, the "ivory tower" is usually the first in line to provide rational justifications for the unthinkable.

You mean like making support for the less genocidal candidate "conditional"?

While y'all dither and clutch your pearls, Trumpista evangelical authority figures are not wasting time.

I don't know how to Xhit so I just have to type it out:
from David Brody on twitter

"Israel is not Ukraine. It's much different. Just read the book of Genesis. If we don't stand with Israel and help them financially I truly believe we will lose God's hand of protection for America. You think it's bad now? Just wait. For that reason alone, it's the "America First" position to stand with Israel. It's also Biblical.
#StandWithIsrael


America first position is obviously support for Trump.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

"Israel is not Ukraine. It's much different. Just read the book of Genesis. If we don't stand with Israel and help them financially I truly believe we will lose God's hand of protection for America. You think it's bad now? Just wait. For that reason alone, it's the "America First" position to stand with Israel. It's also Biblical.
#StandWithIsrael

That typifies the entire American position on Israel, ever since the modern state thereof was created. Voting for this party or that one will not change that.

 

[TomC]

"Israel is not Ukraine. It's much different. Just read the book of Genesis. If we don't stand with Israel and help them financially I truly believe we will lose God's hand of protection for America. You think it's bad now? Just wait. For that reason alone, it's the "America First" position to stand with Israel. It's also Biblical.
#StandWithIsrael

That typifies the entire American position on Israel, ever since the modern state thereof was created. Voting for this party or that one will not change that.

Bullshit.
Israel was formed to provide a place where Jews were safe from the government.

There were tons of ulterior motives, no doubt about that. But yes, voting any way but for Biden will be supportive of that view. Like it or not.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

I most certainly am, and yes, it was. You wrote it to me directly, as a response to my post. You're just thinking better of it now. But I accept your apology (And I'm non-binary, so use whatever pronoun you prefer).

So what do you think will happen to people such as yourself if Trump and the Republicans take over?

 

[Politesse]

I most certainly am, and yes, it was. You wrote it to me directly, as a response to my post. You're just thinking better of it now. But I accept your apology (And I'm non-binary, so use whatever pronoun you prefer).

So what do you think will happen to people such as yourself if Trump and the Republicans take over?

To the camps, no doubt. And there is no "if" about it, Trump has already subverted our government utterly, large portions of which consider him to be our president and act accordingly regardless of the outcome of any election.

 

[southernhybrid]

Israel has been the only democracy in the area, even if it's now showing signs of declining, as are many other democracies. Are we to abandon them? Then what?

Sooner or later, yes, we will have to. They are about to drag us into a full scale war with Iran. Are you ready for that? Another twenty year long "defensive war" in someone else's country that never seems to end? I'm sure once Trump is in office and committing whatever war crimes his idiot advisors tell him to, all the moderate Democrats will gleefully pretend the middle four years didn't happen, that it was a straight line from the moving of the embassy to the nuking of Tehran. But when we had a chance to de-escalate, we chose to fan the flames and stuff the budget. The collusion of the "left" will be forgotten... by the left. But only by the left.

I went to bed before I could respond to this post, but have you noticed that Biden has at least temporarily stopped Bibi from responding to Iran and he has also told him that the US will not help him attack Iran? Now Hezbollah and the IDF are exchanging fire along the border of Lebanon. Is that Biden's fault too?

The US, and at least two other countries helped Israel intercept just about all of the missiles and drones that were headed for Israel. And, more Europeans are supporting Israel, including France. I don't think anyone likes what Israel is doing in the Palestine right now, other than perhaps some of the Republicans. In fact, I heard one who was interviewed on Meet the Press this morning imply that the US needed to attack Iran due to what happened yesterday. I apologize for not remembering his name. It will be Republicans who will drag us into a wider war, if that happens, not the Democrats, at least not unless we are directly attacked. I really don't think Iran wants that, although it's possible, considering who they have as allies. Four years? This mess with Israel didn't even start until last October. A lot of your responses don't even make sense. Plus you don't address many of the points other posters make. Nobody is forcing anyone to vote for Biden. We are just explaining why he's the best choice that we have and he's done a lot of positive things for the country.

I hope things will change before the election, but I can't imagine how Biden copes so well with all the unwarranted criticism from both sides.

 

[Politesse]

Israel has been the only democracy in the area, even if it's now showing signs of declining, as are many other democracies. Are we to abandon them? Then what?

Sooner or later, yes, we will have to. They are about to drag us into a full scale war with Iran. Are you ready for that? Another twenty year long "defensive war" in someone else's country that never seems to end? I'm sure once Trump is in office and committing whatever war crimes his idiot advisors tell him to, all the moderate Democrats will gleefully pretend the middle four years didn't happen, that it was a straight line from the moving of the embassy to the nuking of Tehran. But when we had a chance to de-escalate, we chose to fan the flames and stuff the budget. The collusion of the "left" will be forgotten... by the left. But only by the left.

I went to bed before I could respond to this post, but have you noticed that Biden has at least temporarily stopped Bibi from responding to Iran and he has also told him that the US will not help him attack Iran? Now Hezbollah and the IDF are exchanging fire along the border of Lebanon. Is that Biden's fault too?

The US, and at least two other countries helped Israel intercept just about all of the missiles and drones that were headed for Israel. And, more Europeans are supporting Israel, including France. I don't think anyone likes what Israel is doing in the Palestine right now, other than perhaps some of the Republicans. In fact, I heard one who was interviewed on Meet the Press this morning imply that the US needed to attack Iran due to what happened yesterday. I apologize for not remembering his name. It will be Republicans who will drag us into a wider war, if that happens, not the Democrats, at least not unless we are directly attacked. I really don't think Iran wants that, although it's possible, considering who they have as allies. Four years? This mess with Israel didn't even start until last October. A lot of your responses don't even make sense. Plus you don't address many of the points other posters make. Nobody is forcing anyone to vote for Biden. We are just explaining why he's the best choice that we have and he's done a lot of positive things for the country.

I hope things will change before the election, but I can't imagine how Biden copes so well with all the unwarranted criticism from both sides.

Holding someone minimally accountable for their own words, actions, and investments is not "unwarranted criticism". Voting for someone no matter what they do or say or fund, for no other reason they pretend to oppose the same politician that you do (while doing nothing to actually dismantle the extrademocratic governance structure every president since Nixon has been incrementally building), is "unwarranted support".

No one forced Biden to get on that plane and sit on that war cabinet. That was his choice, and his current mode of feigned buyer's remorse is accomplishing nothing.

 

[Elixir]

So, you support Biden unconditionally, because he is the chosen voice of the party you support unconditionally.

Unless some dark horse party comes out of nowhere with a candidate I consider more competent and more friendly to my preferences, yeah - other than some conditions, my support for Biden is “unconditional”. So what?

I must admit that at this point it seems very likely I will vote for Biden.