Working Mom Arrested for Letting Her 9-Year-Old Play Alone at Park

[The Paul]

A nine year old is in what... grade 4? I find it a little easier to remember what my situation was "in grade 4" than "when I was 9."

I played at the park without a parent all the time when I was in grade 4 and I didn't know any kids who weren't allowed to do the same.

There may be some element of her being a girl, which increases the "Oh no she's so vulnerable!" thing, but it's not like a 9 year old boy is actually able defend himself from an adult attacker any better than a 9 year old girl can.

 

[thebeave]

<snip>As an adult male nowadays I cannot offer assistance to, or even approach, any distressed child that isn't my own. The best I can do is call the police.<snip>

Can you elaborate a bit on the bolded part? As an adult male, I have approached and assisted children that weren't my own plenty of times with no untowards repercussions. Like this time within the last month or too (talk about nowadays) when this kid was crying and throwing itself onto the floor, with no adults in sight that looked like they were taking responsibility for him. I grabbed his hand and told him "let's walk to your parents, show me were they are" upon which he quickly calmed down and we walked hand in hand a couple hundred yards until we caught up with his parents who, it turned out, had just seen no other way to deal with his utter refusal to leave the playground than to walk ahead until he thought better of it. I can sympathise with their decisions, but as far as I could register, they got more bad looks from bystanders than me.

If you talk about grabbing an unknown, injured kid and putting him in your car to bring him or her to the hospital, that might be different - but you should be calling the police anyway in such a situation, and an ambulance if you're not a medical professional yourself. An ambulance because as a non-professional, you can't judge wether the kid is transportable if it's injured badly enough to require an immediate ER visit, and the police because that's who the parents will call when they return and find their kid missing.

Well, here's one example of how men today are viewed in the presence of children:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_policy_controversy

Admittedly, I'm someone who has a limited amount of patience or tolerance with most children, so its not a big sacrifice for me to stay clear of children in general. If I saw a child alone and lost, especially if its a young girl, I would probably try to find an adult female or law enforcement to console her and help her out. Its not worth the hassle or scowling looks. I mean can you imagine a 50+ graying white man like myself, holding a crying little girl's hand walking around trying to find her mom?

I think a lot of older people aren't used to this new paradigm as I sometimes have grandmas showing me pictures of their grand daughters and exclaiming, "Isn't she beautiful?". I try to change the subject from her looks to other things, like her academic interests or hobbies, as it gets very uncomfortable and creepy to discuss how gorgeous her prepubescent grand daughter is!

 

[Toni]

Can you elaborate a bit on the bolded part? As an adult male, I have approached and assisted children that weren't my own plenty of times with no untowards repercussions. Like this time within the last month or too (talk about nowadays) when this kid was crying and throwing itself onto the floor, with no adults in sight that looked like they were taking responsibility for him. I grabbed his hand and told him "let's walk to your parents, show me were they are" upon which he quickly calmed down and we walked hand in hand a couple hundred yards until we caught up with his parents who, it turned out, had just seen no other way to deal with his utter refusal to leave the playground than to walk ahead until he thought better of it. I can sympathise with their decisions, but as far as I could register, they got more bad looks from bystanders than me.

If you talk about grabbing an unknown, injured kid and putting him in your car to bring him or her to the hospital, that might be different - but you should be calling the police anyway in such a situation, and an ambulance if you're not a medical professional yourself. An ambulance because as a non-professional, you can't judge wether the kid is transportable if it's injured badly enough to require an immediate ER visit, and the police because that's who the parents will call when they return and find their kid missing.

Well, here's one example of how men today are viewed in the presence of children:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_policy_controversy

Admittedly, I'm someone who has a limited amount of patience or tolerance with most children, so its not a big sacrifice for me to stay clear of children in general. If I saw a child alone and lost, especially if its a young girl, I would probably try to find an adult female or law enforcement to console her and help her out. Its not worth the hassle or scowling looks. I mean can you imagine a 50+ graying white man like myself, holding a crying little girl's hand walking around trying to find her mom?

I think a lot of older people aren't used to this new paradigm as I sometimes have grandmas showing me pictures of their grand daughters and exclaiming, "Isn't she beautiful?". I try to change the subject from her looks to other things, like her academic interests or hobbies, as it gets very uncomfortable and creepy to discuss how gorgeous her prepubescent grand daughter is!

A couple of things: Personally, I know a number of graying men who help young children without the slightest thought of potentially perceived as some sort of pervert. In fact, I can't think of any who wouldn't/don't.

Those ladies who are showing you pictures of their beautiful grand daughters are just as likely to be exclaiming about how beautiful she is because she is beautiful--no matter what she looks like because she is their grand daughter! All grandchildren are beautiful to their grand parents, even the very homely ones. In this case, beautiful is not the same thing as sexually attractive or potential mate material.

 

[Celldweller]

So, because the laptop was stolen the child had no other means to entertain herself INSIDE the McDonalds? It was a lunch shift, is the child that screen addicted she couldn't do something else? I'm speculating here but I still find the decision making a bit odd on mom's part.

In a McDonalds???? What was she supposed to do? Why can't she play in the park? My kids took themselves to the park, to the library, for bike rides--all without my eyes on them. Or cell phones! This child was close to where her mother was and had a good a d safe, efficient way to reach her mom or the police! if necessary.

Yes, in a Mcdonalds, which is where the child previously spent her time. What was she supposed to do (without a laptop, lol) would be a parental decision, not a 9 year old's decision. Read a *gasp* book, draw, bring a bag of toys, hell I don't know. But what I won't do is blame the parents in the park for not having this altruistic view about a child left alone in public with no designated watcher while mom worked.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

A couple of things: Personally, I know a number of graying men who help young children without the slightest thought of potentially perceived as some sort of pervert. In fact, I can't think of any who wouldn't/don't.

I'd just like to point out that you can be a pervert without being a pedophile or a danger to children. A number of graying men who even are perverts are still going to act kindly towards children.

 

[Jokodo]

Can you elaborate a bit on the bolded part? As an adult male, I have approached and assisted children that weren't my own plenty of times with no untowards repercussions. Like this time within the last month or too (talk about nowadays) when this kid was crying and throwing itself onto the floor, with no adults in sight that looked like they were taking responsibility for him. I grabbed his hand and told him "let's walk to your parents, show me were they are" upon which he quickly calmed down and we walked hand in hand a couple hundred yards until we caught up with his parents who, it turned out, had just seen no other way to deal with his utter refusal to leave the playground than to walk ahead until he thought better of it. I can sympathise with their decisions, but as far as I could register, they got more bad looks from bystanders than me.

If you talk about grabbing an unknown, injured kid and putting him in your car to bring him or her to the hospital, that might be different - but you should be calling the police anyway in such a situation, and an ambulance if you're not a medical professional yourself. An ambulance because as a non-professional, you can't judge wether the kid is transportable if it's injured badly enough to require an immediate ER visit, and the police because that's who the parents will call when they return and find their kid missing.

Well, here's one example of how men today are viewed in the presence of children:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_policy_controversy

This is not really relevant to this discussion. While the policy in question is stupid and discriminatory, it's meant as a general rule just to be on the safe side. This tells us literally nothing about how even the very people who designed those policies - let alone the public in general - would react when facing a specific adult male who is clearly helping out a specific child that clearly needs help.

Admittedly, I'm someone who has a limited amount of patience or tolerance with most children, so its not a big sacrifice for me to stay clear of children in general. If I saw a child alone and lost, especially if its a young girl, I would probably try to find an adult female or law enforcement to console her and help her out.

Now, that I would find suspicious behaviour - why would you, in the face of a situation you could much more efficiently handle yourself, instead throw your hands in the air and, effectively, shout out "I can't come closer than 10 feet to this child, can someone else please come and handle this affair"? It almost makes it look like you're a convicted child molester on parole.

Its not worth the hassle or scowling looks.

You've yet to make an argument that hassle or scowling looks will ensue.

I mean can you imagine a 50+ graying white man like myself, holding a crying little girl's hand walking around trying to find her mom?

Yes.

I think a lot of older people aren't used to this new paradigm as I sometimes have grandmas showing me pictures of their grand daughters and exclaiming, "Isn't she beautiful?". I try to change the subject from her looks to other things, like her academic interests or hobbies, as it gets very uncomfortable and creepy to discuss how gorgeous her prepubescent grand daughter is!

What makes it creepy?

 

[Jokodo]

A couple of things: Personally, I know a number of graying men who help young children without the slightest thought of potentially perceived as some sort of pervert. In fact, I can't think of any who wouldn't/don't.

I'd just like to point out that you can be a pervert without being a pedophile or a danger to children. A number of graying men who even are perverts are still going to act kindly towards children.

We'd need a definition of "pervert" before we can even discuss this. I assume Toni meant pervert as pedophile. That may not be the best or most common usage, but which one are you proposing? If you're using "pervert" as "anyone indulging in sexual activities that are technically illegal in several US states although the laws that ban them are for teh most part deemed unenforcible since a 2003 High Court ruling", it's trivially true but tells us more about fucked up state laws than about what is and isn't safe for children.

 

[barbos]

By the age of 9 me and friends would wander 2-3 then 10 km (with bicycle) from the house to the river or somewhere else.
I learned to swim by myself.
I have been home alone with solderer making 220 Volt AC circuits since I was 7-8, Not to mention "fixing" CRT based TV sets.
By the age of 9 I think my older cousin taught me how to make aluminum paint based "bombs"
Now I can't believe how much freedom I actually had and it is really a miracle that I am alive and have both eyes and all fingers in place.
Funny thing is, the worst accident was hitting a finger with a hammer with a lot of blood and lost nail It happened while under adult supervision
I look at 9 year olds now and can't imagine allowing them do what we did without any kind of adult supervision.

 

[dystopian]

I mean can you imagine a 50+ graying white man like myself, holding a crying little girl's hand walking around trying to find her mom?

I think a lot of older people aren't used to this new paradigm as I sometimes have grandmas showing me pictures of their grand daughters and exclaiming, "Isn't she beautiful?". I try to change the subject from her looks to other things, like her academic interests or hobbies, as it gets very uncomfortable and creepy to discuss how gorgeous her prepubescent grand daughter is!

It bothers me that this is the new paradigm; it's completely absurd. There's no reason why one should respond to these examples with feelings of guilt. I remember this one time, this little girl saw me walking in the neighborhood with a new coat that I had bought that looked rather unique, and she came up to me and told me that I looked pretty; so I responded simply with "Thanks, you look pretty too." Didn't think anything of it at the time, was just being polite after all. But then later I started having completely unnecessary thoughts about how maybe if some other adult had overheard that they might get the wrong idea (I think that may have been triggered about reading an article on abuse the day prior; in any case, I wouldn't have gone and felt that way if it wasn't considered a general societal issue). I'd gone and started feeling weirded out and guilty by a casual polite comment. I don't think I should've felt that way, nor should you feel uncomfortable about just politely telling the grandma that her granddaughter is beautiful (even if she's not).

Society is too obsessed with child safety; makes us overshoot the goal and end up doing more harm than good. There's reasonable concern and precautions we can take, but we don't want to be so extreme in it that we arrest mom's who let their kids play alone in the park or automatically assume that strange men interacting with kids are pedophiles.

 

[Hickdive]

Can you elaborate a bit on the bolded part?

Yes, certainly.

Children are taught specifically in school (certainly my children have been) not to talk to strangers and, if necessary, to "shout, run, tell". On one occasion I spoke to a neighbour's child and very politely asked them to retrieve my son's ball they had taken from him and thrown into another garden (one with a known curmudgeonly owner) I had the police at my door within the hour to "talk to me about my behaviour".

My natural instinct as a parent is to comfort kids in distress and I even provide first aid cover at my sons' rugby matches however my experience has taught me to be very cautious when dealing with other children unless their parent or other supervisory adult is present.

The last time I helped a kid in distress (he'd been left behind by a careless school trip) I was fortunate to have my own wife and sons in the car as witnesses but I established the problem and contacted the police and his mother on her mobile phone without going within ten feet of him.

A sad state of affairs but I'm not taking any risks at all.

 

[Jokodo]

Can you elaborate a bit on the bolded part?

Yes, certainly.

Children are taught specifically in school (certainly my children have been) not to talk to strangers and, if necessary, to "shout, run, tell". On one occasion I spoke to a neighbour's child and very politely asked them to retrieve my son's ball they had taken from him and thrown into another garden (one with a known curmudgeonly owner) I had the police at my door within the hour to "talk to me about my behaviour".

I don't know what the police talked about to you, but from what you write this sounds like a spoilt kid squealing on you for allegedly being rude and intimidated, maybe threatening even, in doing so possibly misrepresenting your actions for their own gains, and their parents believing every word of it; it does not sound like anybody suspected you of being a predatory pedophile over the incident, and it does not sound as if you would have got the visit if you had helped the kid rather than argued with them.

My natural instinct as a parent is to comfort kids in distress and I even provide first aid cover at my sons' rugby matches however my experience has taught me to be very cautious when dealing with other children unless their parent or other supervisory adult is present.

Which experience? What you provided is not an example of getting into trouble for helping a kid.

The last time I helped a kid in distress (he'd been left behind by a careless school trip) I was fortunate to have my own wife and sons in the car as witnesses but I established the problem and contacted the police and his mother on her mobile phone without going within ten feet of him.

A sad state of affairs but I'm not taking any risks at all.

Which risks? If you are giving first aid to a kid while staying on the playground with 40 other kids and their supervisory adults around, what is going to happen? If you have to take the kid away, people might be more inclined to call the police, but in that situation, you should be calling the police anyway, whether people suspect you or not.

 

[Hickdive]

Yes, certainly.

Children are taught specifically in school (certainly my children have been) not to talk to strangers and, if necessary, to "shout, run, tell". On one occasion I spoke to a neighbour's child and very politely asked them to retrieve my son's ball they had taken from him and thrown into another garden (one with a known curmudgeonly owner) I had the police at my door within the hour to "talk to me about my behaviour".

I don't know what the police talked about to you, but from what you write this sounds like a spoilt kid squealing on you for allegedly being rude and intimidated, maybe threatening even, in doing so possibly misrepresenting your actions for their own gains, and their parents believing every word of it; it does not sound like anybody suspected you of being a predatory pedophile over the incident, and it does not sound as if you would have got the visit if you had helped the kid rather than argued with them.

My natural instinct as a parent is to comfort kids in distress and I even provide first aid cover at my sons' rugby matches however my experience has taught me to be very cautious when dealing with other children unless their parent or other supervisory adult is present.

Which experience? What you provided is not an example of getting into trouble for helping a kid.

The last time I helped a kid in distress (he'd been left behind by a careless school trip) I was fortunate to have my own wife and sons in the car as witnesses but I established the problem and contacted the police and his mother on her mobile phone without going within ten feet of him.

A sad state of affairs but I'm not taking any risks at all.

Which risks? If you are giving first aid to a kid while staying on the playground with 40 other kids and their supervisory adults around, what is going to happen? If you have to take the kid away, people might be more inclined to call the police, but in that situation, you should be calling the police anyway, whether people suspect you or not.

Then your experience differs from mine, you can take the risk, I won't.

 

[Jokodo]

I don't know what the police talked about to you, but from what you write this sounds like a spoilt kid squealing on you for allegedly being rude and intimidated, maybe threatening even, in doing so possibly misrepresenting your actions for their own gains, and their parents believing every word of it; it does not sound like anybody suspected you of being a predatory pedophile over the incident, and it does not sound as if you would have got the visit if you had helped the kid rather than argued with them.

My natural instinct as a parent is to comfort kids in distress and I even provide first aid cover at my sons' rugby matches however my experience has taught me to be very cautious when dealing with other children unless their parent or other supervisory adult is present.

Which experience? What you provided is not an example of getting into trouble for helping a kid.

The last time I helped a kid in distress (he'd been left behind by a careless school trip) I was fortunate to have my own wife and sons in the car as witnesses but I established the problem and contacted the police and his mother on her mobile phone without going within ten feet of him.

A sad state of affairs but I'm not taking any risks at all.

Which risks? If you are giving first aid to a kid while staying on the playground with 40 other kids and their supervisory adults around, what is going to happen? If you have to take the kid away, people might be more inclined to call the police, but in that situation, you should be calling the police anyway, whether people suspect you or not.

Then your experience differs from mine, you can take the risk, I won't.

Again, which risk? What do you fear will happen that will not be easily resolved as a silly misunderstanding?
Which experiences do you have that differ from mine?

 

[Hickdive]

I don't know what the police talked about to you, but from what you write this sounds like a spoilt kid squealing on you for allegedly being rude and intimidated, maybe threatening even, in doing so possibly misrepresenting your actions for their own gains, and their parents believing every word of it; it does not sound like anybody suspected you of being a predatory pedophile over the incident, and it does not sound as if you would have got the visit if you had helped the kid rather than argued with them.

My natural instinct as a parent is to comfort kids in distress and I even provide first aid cover at my sons' rugby matches however my experience has taught me to be very cautious when dealing with other children unless their parent or other supervisory adult is present.

Which experience? What you provided is not an example of getting into trouble for helping a kid.

The last time I helped a kid in distress (he'd been left behind by a careless school trip) I was fortunate to have my own wife and sons in the car as witnesses but I established the problem and contacted the police and his mother on her mobile phone without going within ten feet of him.

A sad state of affairs but I'm not taking any risks at all.

Which risks? If you are giving first aid to a kid while staying on the playground with 40 other kids and their supervisory adults around, what is going to happen? If you have to take the kid away, people might be more inclined to call the police, but in that situation, you should be calling the police anyway, whether people suspect you or not.

Then your experience differs from mine, you can take the risk, I won't.

Again, which risk? What do you fear will happen that will not be easily resolved as a silly misunderstanding?
Which experiences do you have that differ from mine?

I don't know what your experiences are so how can I tell?

You seem to be determined to create an argument out of us simply having different experiences. I'm not going to get involved.

 

[Jokodo]

I don't know what the police talked about to you, but from what you write this sounds like a spoilt kid squealing on you for allegedly being rude and intimidated, maybe threatening even, in doing so possibly misrepresenting your actions for their own gains, and their parents believing every word of it; it does not sound like anybody suspected you of being a predatory pedophile over the incident, and it does not sound as if you would have got the visit if you had helped the kid rather than argued with them.

My natural instinct as a parent is to comfort kids in distress and I even provide first aid cover at my sons' rugby matches however my experience has taught me to be very cautious when dealing with other children unless their parent or other supervisory adult is present.

Which experience? What you provided is not an example of getting into trouble for helping a kid.

The last time I helped a kid in distress (he'd been left behind by a careless school trip) I was fortunate to have my own wife and sons in the car as witnesses but I established the problem and contacted the police and his mother on her mobile phone without going within ten feet of him.

A sad state of affairs but I'm not taking any risks at all.

Which risks? If you are giving first aid to a kid while staying on the playground with 40 other kids and their supervisory adults around, what is going to happen? If you have to take the kid away, people might be more inclined to call the police, but in that situation, you should be calling the police anyway, whether people suspect you or not.

Then your experience differs from mine, you can take the risk, I won't.

Again, which risk? What do you fear will happen that will not be easily resolved as a silly misunderstanding?
Which experiences do you have that differ from mine?

I don't know what your experiences are so how can I tell?

You seem to be determined to create an argument out of us simply having different experiences. I'm not going to get involved.

I have represented one recent experience where I helped a stranger's kid and no-one took offense.

You have not represented any experiences where you got into trouble for helping a kid.

We may have different experiences, but from what has been said in this thread, it cannot be sure your paranoia is experience-based. And you've yet to tell us what exactly, beyond maybe odd looks, you expect might happen.

 

[Hickdive]

We may have different experiences, but from what has been said in this thread, it cannot be sure your paranoia is experience-based. And you've yet to tell us what exactly, beyond maybe odd looks, you expect might happen.

Paranoia?

Obviously you have problems with some forms of social interaction in being unable to to gauge other people's reactions to your behaviour even when given visual and audible clues. You find it especially difficult when communicating with someone without those.

That's why you didn't consider how others would react to you removing the child from the park and why child's parent's would have been horrified by your behaviour but you didn't pick up on it.

The "we're leaving without you" gambit is a common one used, usually unsuccessfully, by parents wanting to move on somewhere else when a child is reluctant to leave. It doesn't invite or require the involvement of anyone else. The parents have (1) had their plan foiled and (2) a stranger has removed their child from the location they were going to return to when it failed. I can guarantee you they were not happy. The fact you appear to be oblivious to this is telling.

The fact that you seem to be unaware that you're attempting to start an argument with me is also very telling.

I suspect you're somewhere on the autistic spectrum so I'll do as I do when dealing with such people and make it very plain.

You are causing me annoyance.

I am not going to get involved in your argument.

 

[Jokodo]

We may have different experiences, but from what has been said in this thread, it cannot be sure your paranoia is experience-based. And you've yet to tell us what exactly, beyond maybe odd looks, you expect might happen.

Paranoia?

Obviously you have problems with some forms of social interaction in being unable to to gauge other people's reactions to your behaviour even when given visual and audible clues. You find it especially difficult when communicating with someone without those.

That's why you didn't consider how others would react to you removing the child from the park and why child's parent's would have been horrified by your behaviour but you didn't pick up on it.

The "we're leaving without you" gambit is a common one used, usually unsuccessfully, by parents wanting to move on somewhere else when a child is reluctant to leave. It doesn't invite or require the involvement of anyone else. The parents have (1) had their plan foiled and (2) a stranger has removed their child from the location they were going to return to when it failed. I can guarantee you they were not happy. The fact you appear to be oblivious to this is telling.

The fact that you seem to be unaware that you're attempting to start an argument with me is also very telling.

I suspect you're somewhere on the autistic spectrum so I'll do as I do when dealing with such people and make it very plain.

You are causing me annoyance.

I am not going to get involved in your argument.

Stop making assumptions - about me or about people around me. You're causing me annoyance too - through your continued refusal to back up your position with anything resembling an actual argument.

Returning to the situation described, no, I didn't foil their plan. Their plan was to leave, and through my intervention, unnecessary though it may have been, they were able to leave earlier than they would have otherwise. Although it may be a weird thing to say of a three-year old, the kid almost reacted as if embarassed to throw such a tantrum in front of a stranger and very quickly indeed settled down on following his parents as soon as I interacted with him.

In a more general sense, I can even understand your wariness, and I'm not totally immune to it either. Earlier this month, when I was taking an international flight (EU and Schengen internal, but still) with my kid (who has his mother's surname), I took care to carry a copy of our joint costudy agreement just in case they'd start to ask questions. Fathers abducting their children over whom the mother has been granted sole costudy and taking them abroad is something that happens, and indeed something that, I'm willing to wager even as I don't have actual data at hand, happens significantly more often than strangers abducting children from the playground, so it wouldn't have been entirely unreasonable of them to ask questions (they didn't, though). I wasn't expecting to get into any real trouble over it, but having to wait for 20 minutes while they make calls with police headquarters or the district court where we signed said agreement to check that everything's fine is something I realistically expected might happen, and bad enough to try avoiding, especially if you have to catch a flight.

What I don't understand, and what you have yet to make an argument for, is how it is supposed to apply to a situation of consoling or giving first aid to a child that has fallen off a swing in front of dozens of witnesses.

 

[Hickdive]

Stop making assumptions - about me or about people around me. You're causing me annoyance too - through your continued refusal to back up your position with anything resembling an actual argument.

Irony much? The reason I'm not making an argument is because, and I quote "I'm not going to get involved in your argument".

Why do you find that hard to grasp? Is it because, as I say, you have difficulty with social interactions?

 

[Jokodo]

Stop making assumptions - about me or about people around me. You're causing me annoyance too - through your continued refusal to back up your position with anything resembling an actual argument.

Irony much? The reason I'm not making an argument is because, and I quote "I'm not going to get involved in your argument".

Why do you find that hard to grasp? Is it because, as I say, you have difficulty with social interactions?

You have been trying to make an argument since back on page 3 when you said, and this is a direct quote: "As an adult male nowadays I cannot offer assistance to, or even approach, any distressed child that isn't my own. The best I can do is call the police."

You're just not defending it.

But do feel smug about making unsupported claims and expecting everybody to take them at face value, if it floats your boat. And why not throw in an ad hominem when challenged to support them?

 

[Sabine Grant]

TFT Moderation Team.