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Working Mom Arrested for Letting Her 9-Year-Old Play Alone at Park

Yeah, the few people who comment on this are going to write opinion pieces. And since their opinions disagree with your opinions, that makes them even less valuable to the discussion. You want men discussing why they are reluctant to interact with other people's kids? You'll get opinion pieces.

There aren't going to be any official government studies about men being reluctant to interact with stranger's children. To a certain extent, such a study would conflict with the general existing policy trend of stranger paranoia. And the hysteria over a 9 year old kid playing at a busy playground without a helicopter parent.
 
Yeah, the few people who comment on this are going to write opinion pieces. And since their opinions disagree with your opinions, that makes them even less valuable to the discussion. You want men discussing why they are reluctant to interact with other people's kids? You'll get opinion pieces.

There aren't going to be any official government studies about men being reluctant to interact with stranger's children. To a certain extent, such a study would conflict with the general existing policy trend of stranger paranoia. And the hysteria over a 9 year old kid playing at a busy playground without a helicopter parent.

In other words, you have nothing to actually suggest that putting a sticky plaster on a kid that's not your own when it's fallen off the swing, in the middle of a full playground, is a risk not worth taking.

I get it.

Opinion pieces can be interesting and enlightening to read, but they don't work for settling an argument as to whether or not that opinion is reasonable.
 
And you've got nothing to suggest it IS a risk worth taking. The opinions of those who have to take the risk matter to those taking the risk, but their opinions are wrong. And the article about the airline policy is also wrong, apparently.
 
And you've got nothing to suggest it IS a risk worth taking. The opinions of those who have to take the risk matter to those taking the risk, but their opinions are wrong.

So now you're down to requesting me to prove a negative, just after the argumentum ad populum that your laundry list of opinion pieces was? What's next?

Oh, and we're still not discussing the question of "do people in general scrutinise adult males interacting with children more so than females", but rather "is helping a child that clearly needs help in front of dozens of witnesses a risk for either unrelated adults in general or unrelated adult males". Anything else would be a derail, and that's what makes the airline policy article right but irrelevant.
 
These are opinion pieces on how and why adults might be reluctant to help children. No actual data on how many actually are, much less anything remotely resembling an empirical demonstration that such a reluctance is reasonable.

Come back when you have pertinent links, will you?

I owned a child care center for over 5 years. There are many parents that would NOT register their children if it was a male teacher/caregiver.

And then there are many parents who will go out of there way to find a male teacher/caregiver because they want to give their chils (usually boy) a male role model. At the day care provider where we previously had our child, there was a male caregiver too and he had the longest waiting lists.

ETA: And do you really think that's comparable anyway? Giving your child to an adult for hours at a time where he'll be the sole adult in sight is something quite different from the situation we're talking about, which still is a scenario of applying a sticky plaster to a kid that's fallen off a swing in front of dozens of witnesses?
And yet in five years, I NEVER had a "request" for the male teacher at the preschool (grade school after program, yes but not preschool). I guess your "evidence" trumps mine and male caregiver prejudice doesn't exist. :rolleyes:
 
Cripes, I left the house to go play on my own at a much earlier age, and so did all the other military brats on every base I went to. This is outrageous.
 
And you've got nothing to suggest it IS a risk worth taking. The opinions of those who have to take the risk matter to those taking the risk, but their opinions are wrong. And the article about the airline policy is also wrong, apparently.

Well, in your anecdote above, the toddler who drowned because a man was afraid to get involved: That is a reason to take a risk, imo.


I would like to think that even if I were male and were aware that there might be some risk of being accused of a horrific crime that given the choice between having to defend myself vs realistic and reasonable risk of death for a toddler, I would choose the risk to myself. I believe that I would based on other risks I've taken with respect to my own safety vs injury to others. But since I am female, I cannot say with 100% authority that I would. I believe that is what should happen: we should all be willing to help another person, especially someone who is vulnerable, such as a child.

What I cannot figure out is whether the fear of doing so is based on a reasonable risk analysis or whether it is a convenient excuse to not get involved. I write this not to attack anyone. I've seen people in other situations--including friends, I might add--who expressed fear of injury/risk to themselves when it came to interfering on behalf of someone else. Any police officer knows that one of the most dangerous situations they will encounter is a domestic abuse call. Officers have been shot and killed responding to such calls; individuals have been shot and killed in front of the officers responding to such calls. There really is danger involved, real physical risk. In this thread, real life cases of men who offered aid to a young child experienced serious negative consequences for doing so, although they did nothing wrong and nothing that imo a reasonable person would find questionable.
 
What this story really reveals is the frighteningly powerful influence that media (including fiction) has is shaping people's understanding of reality and influencing their behavior.
I suspect that 99% of the people saying that this girl is too young to be alone in a busy park during the afternoon (with a cell phone, a key to her house, and ability to go to her mom's work), were themselves left unsupervised in far more dangerous situations at a younger age and nothing ever happened as a result. Not to mention, they were put in situations that were objectively more dangerous even when a parent is present (i.e. riding in a car). Their hysteria over this shows how their views of reality completely ignore actual reality and their own experiences are 100% shaped by media, including a combination of fiction and non-representative "news" stories. This of course includes politicians and other activists groups that use the media to send these fear mongering messages about what a dangerous world it is today for kids despite all evidence to the contrary.
 
What this story really reveals is the frighteningly powerful influence that media (including fiction) has is shaping people's understanding of reality and influencing their behavior.
I suspect that 99% of the people saying that this girl is too young to be alone in a busy park during the afternoon (with a cell phone, a key to her house, and ability to go to her mom's work), were themselves left unsupervised in far more dangerous situations at a younger age and nothing ever happened as a result. Not to mention, they were put in situations that were objectively more dangerous even when a parent is present (i.e. riding in a car). Their hysteria over this shows how their views of reality completely ignore actual reality and their own experiences are 100% shaped by media, including a combination of fiction and non-representative "news" stories. This of course includes politicians and other activists groups that use the media to send these fear mongering messages about what a dangerous world it is today for kids despite all evidence to the contrary.

Yes. And I admit to sometimes wondering if the goal isn't just to create an ever more fear driven passive set of consumers/ voters.
 
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http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/07/23/sa-child-protection-set-shake
[Premier Jay Weatherill] told ABC Radio on Wednesday that some radical proposals were on the table, including a suggestion for female-only carers.

However, he says he would not like to see men banned from looking after children, although it was "not unknown that we don't have abuse at the hands of females as well".
We are regressing as a society when we start thinking that banning an entire sex from a profession is a viable idea.
 
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Demonstrably wrong. According to this 1995 study, "75% of respondents considered intervention required in cases in which a mother often appeared nude in front of her fiveyear-old son," which is pretty much in the same ballpark as the responses for father-daughter situations.

I can't access the website, but in any case, there is a difference between whether people think a specific fictive example of a woman's behaviour is questionable, and whether people think women in general are to be suspected.

I find some of the numbers in their research irritatingly high, and - despite methodological limitations that might have contributed to higher positive response rates than in a neutral setting (as they state: 'Simply "asking the question" increases the probability of a "positive reply"', especially so if the question is presented in a context of questions relating to unambiguous cases of child abuse) - indeed indicative of a kind of hysteria, but the idea that that hysteria is directed at males only cannot be maintained empirically.

It seems then that either of us could regard ourselves as partially right: men are justifiably vigilant about their interactions because the very study you cite shows that respondents are off the Richter scale paranoid.

...and that's exactly why your caution doesn't count as evidence. The reasons that made you cautious might, but you didn't present them, you presented your caution as if it were evidence in itself.

But of course I had reasons. The study you cite above shows that any man (or woman) in my situation ought to have been cautious.

What irony? Whether or not I want them to have more caution is irrelevant. The fact that they don't is what's at issue.

Some people touch your child. Have you any idea of how many people wanted to innocently touch your child, and refrained? Of course, you don't know that number.
 
I think this is the story you are talking about. But you do realise that evidence of fear is not evidence that the fear is reasonable?

Men are more likely to be regarded as kiddy fiddlers than women are. The evidence for this is indisputable, since airlines have actual policies that target men and not women. You'd simply have to be living in another world to believe otherwise.

One way to reduce the chance that you'll be negatively labelled and harassed is to reduce your interaction with children. That's a functional response related to a specific goal.
A quick search doesn't turn up any results for this scenario. Men and women, though have been reported or interviewed and sometimes charged over semi-nude photos of their children that were misinterpreted as being sexual when they were nothing of the kind.

More evidence that background paranoia is indeed quite high, and people are right to be cautious.
 
And yet in five years, I NEVER had a "request" for the male teacher at the preschool (grade school after program, yes but not preschool). I guess your "evidence" trumps mine and male caregiver prejudice doesn't exist. :rolleyes:

That's about the size of it.

...Jokodo... you're basically boiling down to "I haven't witnessed this prejudice, so the people who say they have must be lying or stupid."

To understand why that is not endearing, consider the typical conservative response to discussion of the subject of white privilege.
 

Well, at least her kid will now be with her publicly vilified mother, together sleeping in the park and digging through McDonald's dumpster for dinner.

I can only hope the woman who called to cops feels like an immoral piece of shit and personally responsible for the harm now done to this child. Yes, she's responsible for it and she acted immorally. She wasn't looking out for a kid, she was validating her own irrational worldview that gives her life meaning by creating fictional enemies and dangers that its her duty to be ever paranoid about. People have a moral obligation to act in ways that impact others, based upon beliefs that they have made an honest effort to verify are accurate and rationally grounded. She did not, so what she did was immoral and at minimum, an act of reckless and harmful negligence.
 
Jokodo,

While I somewhat agree that many men overestimate the likelihood that another adult will view them as a potential predator when they are clearly helping an injured kid, what the OP story illustrates is that hysteria over kid predators has reached high enough levels that among a group of parents there is a good chance that at least 1 of them will have just such an irrational reaction to an objectively innocent and harmless situation. IT only takes 1 such parent in a group of 40 to ruin a person's life no matter how innocent they are.

As to the issue of men being more suspected for being a predator, there is no reasonable doubt about this and you are completely wrong about it.

Metaphor said:
Adult females probably would not be scared to do so. No-one ever thinks a woman would kiddy fiddle.

Demonstrably wrong. According to this 1995 study, "75% of respondents considered intervention required in cases in which a mother often appeared nude in front of her fiveyear-old son," which is pretty much in the same ballpark as the responses for father-daughter situations.

First, nothing in that study could possibly show that Metaphor is wrong because the study is about something quite different. It not about strangers approaching kids but parents interacting with their own kids. It is not about perceptions of predatory behavior but merely "inappropriate" or "unsuitable" behavior. It is not interpretations of ambiguous interactions, but judgments about very clear cut an specific activities that they parent and child engage in on a regular basis, including showing, bathing, changing, kissing on the lips, genital contact for hygiene, and sleeping with a single parent.

Second, the issue at hand is the hysteria over child predators increasing in the past decades and your study used data at least 20 years old. This other follow-up study is still 10 years old but shows that things changed notably even in the parent-child actions your study refers to. In general, opposite-sex nudity and intimate touching were viewed as more inappropriate than same-sex, but the difference was quite small and sometimes non-existent when the opposite-sex pairing involved the mother and her son versus a father and his son. In contrast, the differences were much more extreme (5-10 times greater) and the judgments of "inappropriate" much higher when the opposite sex pairing involved the father. This show massive bias against males and the lack of comfort and trust people have about them regarding even their own kids and potentially sexual contact.


I think this is the story you are talking about. But you do realise that evidence of fear is not evidence that the fear is reasonable?
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/man-...-slur-1-486995

Whether the fear is reasonable isn't relevant to whether it is widespread and that people act upon it an ruin other people's lives because of it, as the OP and many other incidents show. That said, even though the fear that any random male will be a predator has near zero probability and is irrational, the fear that a predator is much more likely to be male is highly rational, given that 97% of child predators in sexual offense cases are male, as shown by DOJ stats. Not only is this fact objectively true but its information that is directed at and brought to the attention of parents that are paranoid about predators, such as this website uses the information to scare parents and schools into purchasing their products and workshops with their child-friendly, anti-pedophile, yellow dinosaur.

In sum, people suspect and are fully rational to suspect that most predators of kids are male, but they are highly irrational to suspect that any random male of being a predator, and yet enough people do such that men are reasonable to be cautious around other people's kids, and even more sadly, around their own kids.
All of that said, I would help a kid with an injury at a park and deal with any fucktard hysterical parents if needed.
 
IT only takes 1 such parent in a group of 40 to ruin a person's life no matter how innocent they are.

How so? If one person does react hysterically and calls the cops, 39 witnesses who confirm that everything's OK are all you'll ever need to make sure that the cops are gone within 15 minutes upon arriving and if anyone gets a slap on their fingers (much less their life ruined), it's not going to be you.
 
IT only takes 1 such parent in a group of 40 to ruin a person's life no matter how innocent they are.

How so? If one person does react hysterically and calls the cops, 39 witnesses who confirm that everything's OK are all you'll ever need to make sure that the cops are gone within 15 minutes upon arriving and if anyone gets a slap on their fingers (much less their life ruined), it's not going to be you.

Your scenario presumes that the other parents saw the event in question, are present when the cops arrive, are willing to testify that they saw everything and that nothing indicated wrongdoing, and that the cops come to arrest the person on the spot, in the park rather than 5-10 minutes later when the person is on their way home or at work and none of the other parents are even aware the cops were ever called. My scenario presumes merely that any one of these things is not the case, or that even if all your presumed factors are in place that the cops give claims of wrong doing more weight than statements of "I didn't see anything wrong" (the whole absence of evidence is not evidence of absence thing). Note that the second you are arrested, your life can be ruined no matter how quickly the charges are dropped. The second you are arrested for it and anyone finds out, let alone the media, you can lose your job (like this woman in the OP did over nothing), and people around you will be forever suspicious because our minds cannot undo the knowledge that a person was arrested for being a child predator, even if we find out that "it was nothing".

BTW, are you working on a response to the rest of my post, or do you acknowledge that men are in both in fact and in perception much more likely to be child predators than women?
 
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