Yet another shooting thread

[Elixir]

Bubba say; “You’ve got these 11- and 12-year-old kids that don’t understand the consequences and the far reach of what their words can cause,”

You get that, yet you think they understand the consequences of pulling a trigger while aiming a gun, Bubba? You gonna arrest these kids then keep giving them guns?
Is there something in the GA water?
You’re fucking STUPID, Bubba, and are living the consequences of you being stupid, not of kids being kids.

 

[robnisch]

Active shooter in Kentucky.

 

[Elixir]

Active shooter in Kentucky.

Don’t worry, it will only amount to a small percentage of today’s gun deaths in America.

 

[BH]

One of our assistant principals in Corsicana TX lost an eye to a student going beserk at school.

A few years ago a friend of mine, Bill Mims, was murdered by his stepson. The stepson went ahead and killed his mom and several other family members and then himself. They just lived a couple of blocks over from me.

The world is a sad place. In my small city of Corsicana we are getting much more violent crimes. It makes me sad,

 

[Swammerdami]

Active shooter in Kentucky.

Don’t worry, it will only amount to a small percentage of today’s gun deaths in America.

With an average 120 deaths by gunfire PER DAY in the U.S.A. that's a safe bet.

It's likely that the four victims at Apalachee High weren't even a majority of American gun deaths during that ONE HOUR! And at least the Apalachee victims had a few seconds to contemplate the misdeeds that led to their untimely demises, and to ask the Virgin Mother Mary for forgiveness. Most of the 1000+ annual victims of gun accidents and the hundreds killed by police don't even have that consolation.

 

[Bronzeage]

Do we know what prompted this terrible act?

The thread that runs through everyone of this kind of thing is we never get a answer to this question. This case is a little different in that the shooter is still alive. Even so, I doubt he will be able to give a satisfactory answer.

Any truthful answer is satisfactory. Maybe there are mitigating factors, maybe not.

The mitigating factors are the known facts. He is fourteen years old and someone gave him free access to a deadly weapon. There maybe some mental or emotional health issues, but there are millions of mentally and emotionally disturbed fourteen year olds in this country and they haven't murdered four people.

This is of the same order as the parent whose child gets their driver's license at the earliest possible age and is then given a Mustang 5.0 or a Charger. To any objective observer, this would appear to be a foolish and dangerous thing to do, but the parent believes their child is somehow more mature and responsible than the average teen ager.

I think this would be of the same order only if the teenage driver had threatened to run over pedestrians and his keys weren’t taken away.

And then the parents were arrested, as well. It's the same order of self delusion of the parents.

Father of three, Grandfather to five, and Uncle to many more, I've been able to observe many parenting styles. I've found it very common that when a person hears a child speak in complete sentences(somewhere around 3 to 4 years old) they believe they are dealing with a very small adult, who understands and reasons much like all the other adults in their world.

For some people, this delusion applies only to their own children, because it's obvious the neighbor kids are idiots.

 

[Derec]

In the same way that of course some fish are birds.

Not really. "Charging a minor as an adult" is a term of art. A better term would probably be "charging a minor in criminal court instead of juvenile court". The juvenile system is woefully inadequate for serious crimes such as murder.

In LA County, a shooter killing four people would not be charged as an adult even if he was 17 years and 364 days old because of the far-left DA's policies. Is that justice?

No, it's just facts.

It is a fact that the fauxgressive DA George Gascon refuses to charge anybody under 18 in criminal court, no matter how heinous the crime. But I do not think that's what you meant.
Hopefully he loses reelection in November.

 

[Derec]

Minors shouldn't be tried as adults.

I disagree. They should be tried in criminal court (i.e. "as adults") for serious/violent crimes. Their youth can and should be taken into account at sentencing, but if you are 16 and you murder somebody, I do not see why you should escape criminal consequences and only be considered a "delinquent" with a sealed juvenile record.

Their brains are NOT the same as adults and should not be treated as such.

The brain continues to develop well into adulthood. Also, brain development is gradual, not saltatory. There is no fundamental difference between a 14, 16 and 18 year old brains, only a difference in degree. Law can and should take that into account, especially when teens often commit very serious crimes that they should be held accountable for.

If the crime is so egregious (as I agree is the case in this shooting), then address it with the juvenile justice system.

That's not what the juvenile system is designed for.
Again, I think teens <18 should have their age taken in account. But if serious crimes are committed, criminal consequences should be on the table. Not just being labeled as "juvenile delinquent" and spend a few years in juvi.

 

[Derec]

They are. But I resile from the suggestion that they should be; And am even more horrified by the idea that this injustice deserves the label "of course", as though it were normal and sensible to simply disregard facts we dislike.

It is normal to apply criminal penalties to serious crimes even if the offender is <18.

The law makes different provisions for children than those it has for adults; And it includes clear (albeit arbitrary) boundaries between childhood and adulthood.

The law also recognizes that minor teenagers are different than children and makes provisions for their cases to be transferable to adult/criminal court in certain cases. The applicable laws vary by system, but in general transfer to adult court applies only to certain crimes, there is a minimum age (in Georgia, it is 15 for felonies and 13 for crimes like murder) and requires a hearing before a judge.

If you have rule of law, you need to change the law if you dislike the consequences of the law.

What are you talking about? That is the rule of law! A prosecutor cannot just decide to change a minor in criminal court unless that is authorized by law.

If the law says no child can be sentenced to more than five years in jail, and the law says anyone under the age of eighteen is a child, then it is unlawful to sentence a person who is seventeen years and eleven months old to five years and a day in jail.

Except that the law does not say what you think it says. The law specifically makes provision for trying minors in criminal court.

Whether that is reasonable is a matter of opinion. But if it's not, the recourse is to change that law. You could redefine "child"; Or set a higher maximum semtence for certain crimes when comitted by a child.

The law is the law. It already had provisions to try minors in criminal/adult court.
What did you think? That courts were just making it up as they went along and were trying minors as adults arbitrarily?

How would you feel if you got a ticket for driving at 35 in a 55 zone, because the prosecutor decided you should be tried "as a speeder"? A speeder is usually defined (rather arbitrarily) as someone who drives faster than 55. But they really want to punish you, so they decided that 35 was "fast enough"?

Apparently, yes, you really do think that.

How is declaring that a 14 year old should be tried as though he were over 18, substantively less insane than declaring that a 35mph driver should be tried as though he were over 55mph?

He is not tried as if he were over 18. For example, the death penalty is off the table because of his age.
But Georgia law does provide for trying minors as young as 13 in adult/criminal court for certain crimes.

a. After a petition alleging delinquency has been filed but before the adjudication hearing, on its own motion or on a motion by a prosecuting attorney, the court may convene a hearing to determine whether to transfer the offense to the appropriate superior court for criminal trial if the court determines that:
1. There is probable cause to believe that a child committed the alleged offense;
Such child is not committable to an institution for the developmentally disabled or mentally ill; and
The petition alleges that such child:
2. Was at least 15 years of age at the time of the commission of the offense and committed an act which would be a felony if committed by an adult; or
3. Was 13 or 14 years of age and either committed an act for which the punishment is loss of life or confinement for life in a penal institution or committed aggravated battery resulting in serious bodily injury to an alleged victim who is not a public safety officer as such term is defined in Code Section 16-5-19.

§ 15-11-561. Waiver of Juvenile Court Jurisdiction and Transfer to Superior Court

There are similar laws in other states as well. Including People's Republic of California.

 

[Derec]

Throwing the book at dad might cause the next adult person tempted to do that, to think twice.

I agree. But note the opposite argumentation in the thread about violent pro-Palestine protesters, where the argument is that punishing them either criminally or through Columbia University would not deter anybody.

Meanwhile, I am expecting a pardon promise from Vance, or something like that.

I must have missed the news where he gave up running for Veep and decided to run for Georgia governor instead. Got a link?

 

[Derec]

You bring up a valid point about sentencing under juvenile jurisdiction in Georgia, and I understand and agree that charging him as an adult is important in this case. However, I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding about my original comment. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What I was trying to say is that charging him as an adult, while it may ensure a longer sentence, doesn't address the underlying issues that allow these tragedies to keep happening in the first place. My point is that focusing on how a single individual is prosecuted won’t prevent people—including those with mental health issues—from getting easy access to firearms. That’s more a reflection of broader societal problems like gun availability and policies that need to be addressed.

I did not miss the point. I just pointed out that criminal prosecution is not the proper avenue to address deeper societal issues.

The broader issues you bring up are more difficult. I agree that we should address our gun laws. But even that is not a panacea. A sufficiently motivated person can cause a lot of mayhem with e.g. a knife, like the Syrian fakefugee who stabbed three to death in Germany recently.
Syrian man confesses to stabbing to death 3 people at German festival

 

[Gospel]

You bring up a valid point about sentencing under juvenile jurisdiction in Georgia, and I understand and agree that charging him as an adult is important in this case. However, I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding about my original comment. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What I was trying to say is that charging him as an adult, while it may ensure a longer sentence, doesn't address the underlying issues that allow these tragedies to keep happening in the first place. My point is that focusing on how a single individual is prosecuted won’t prevent people—including those with mental health issues—from getting easy access to firearms. That’s more a reflection of broader societal problems like gun availability and policies that need to be addressed.

I did not miss the point. I just pointed out that criminal prosecution is not the proper avenue to address deeper societal issues.

The broader issues you bring up are more difficult. I agree that we should address our gun laws. But even that is not a panacea. A sufficiently motivated person can cause a lot of mayhem with e.g. a knife, like the Syrian fakefugee who stabbed three to death in Germany recently.
Syrian man confesses to stabbing to death 3 people at German festival

How often are children schools getting shot up in Germany?

 

[Tigers!]

You bring up a valid point about sentencing under juvenile jurisdiction in Georgia, and I understand and agree that charging him as an adult is important in this case. However, I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding about my original comment. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What I was trying to say is that charging him as an adult, while it may ensure a longer sentence, doesn't address the underlying issues that allow these tragedies to keep happening in the first place. My point is that focusing on how a single individual is prosecuted won’t prevent people—including those with mental health issues—from getting easy access to firearms. That’s more a reflection of broader societal problems like gun availability and policies that need to be addressed.

I did not miss the point. I just pointed out that criminal prosecution is not the proper avenue to address deeper societal issues.

The broader issues you bring up are more difficult. I agree that we should address our gun laws. But even that is not a panacea. A sufficiently motivated person can cause a lot of mayhem with e.g. a knife, like the Syrian fakefugee who stabbed three to death in Germany recently.
Syrian man confesses to stabbing to death 3 people at German festival

How often are children schools getting shot up in Germany?

Very fortunately not many school shootings in Germany.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Mother communicated with school morning of the attack, before it started.

Colt Gray, 14, apologized to his mother, Marcee Gray, on the morning of the mass shooting at Apalachee High School — sending an alarming, cryptic text Wednesday that prompted the mother to warn the school that something could be wrong, his grandfather told CNN, confirming information he first provided to the New York Post.

“I’m sorry, mom,” the text read, according to Marcee Gray’s father, Charles Polhamus, who said he was standing near his daughter at his home in Fitzgerald, Georgia, when she received the message.

The mother called the school about an unspecified “extreme emergency” involving Colt Gray sometime before the shooting began, Marcee Gray’s sister Annie Brown told the Washington Post and later confirmed to CNN.

Too bad the kids father was a rather stupid.

 

[Gospel]

The shooter’s father has been arrested. Seems he bought the kid the gun as a Christmas present. Unbelievable level of stupidity.

A legally purchased firearm. Many guns used in crimes initially start out as legal before becoming illegal. I’m willing to bet that if there were a national firearms aptitude test, similar to a driver's test, he would have failed and been denied the purchase for doing something equivalent to reckless driving.

 

[Gospel]

Active shooter in Kentucky.

Another legally purchased firearm.

 

[ZiprHead]

Georgia school shooting suspect’s father should get death penalty says teen’s grandpa

Colt Gray’s grandfather said the teen grew up with a ‘dysfunctional’ father who screamed all the time

www.independent.co.uk

The grandfather of the teenager accused of carrying out a school shooting in Georgia that left two teachers and two students dead has said the boy's "evil" father should get the death penalty.

Charles Polhamus, 81, is the maternal grandfather of the 14-year-old alleged Apalachee High School shooter, Colt Gray. Polhamus said his former son-in-law, Colin Gray, should face the most severe punishment available under US law.

“Spending 11 years with that son of a b**** screaming and hollering every day — it can affect anybody,” he told the New York Post. "He's evil."


The grandfather agreed that his grandson had to face justice for his alleged actions, but said his father's influence no doubt drove the boy toward violence.

“Colt has to pay for what he did, but I’m telling you, he was driven, no question in my mind,” Polhamus told the outlet. “He was driven by his father to do what he did. That’s as plain as I can put it, and I know I’m right."

 

[Gospel]

State prosecutors better do their homework on Grandpa before putting him on the stand as a character witness, no matter how good it seems. They can’t risk jeopardizing the case over anything. If something seems too good to be true, it’s probably a scam—and this grandpa seems a little too perfect as a character witness for the prosecution.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

State prosecutors better do their homework on Grandpa before putting him on the stand as a character witness, no matter how good it seems. They can’t risk jeopardizing the case over anything. If something seems too good to be true, it’s probably a scam—and this grandpa seems a little too perfect as a character witness for the prosecution.

Who needs him? The kid was investigated by local law enforcement. The parent indicated guns were not accessible. He knew there was an issue. We don't need proof that he is a bad Dad, just that he was criminally negligent.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You bring up a valid point about sentencing under juvenile jurisdiction in Georgia, and I understand and agree that charging him as an adult is important in this case. However, I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding about my original comment. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What I was trying to say is that charging him as an adult, while it may ensure a longer sentence, doesn't address the underlying issues that allow these tragedies to keep happening in the first place. My point is that focusing on how a single individual is prosecuted won’t prevent people—including those with mental health issues—from getting easy access to firearms. That’s more a reflection of broader societal problems like gun availability and policies that need to be addressed.

I did not miss the point. I just pointed out that criminal prosecution is not the proper avenue to address deeper societal issues.

The broader issues you bring up are more difficult. I agree that we should address our gun laws. But...

FFS. We've given up on dealing with guns to prevent gun violence in general. We just want to stop the mass murders by limiting access to weapons constantly being used in mass murders. And we still get these damn "but..."s.

The argument was access to these weapons wouldn't make us less safe. The argument has been proven to be very wrong. But...