• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

You don't always need guns ...

Derec

Contributor
Joined
Aug 19, 2002
Messages
25,575
Location
Atlanta, GA
Basic Beliefs
atheist
A car ramming, also in Texas.
Death toll increases to 8 after car plows into a crowd in front of a Texas shelter that was housing migrants
CNN said:
A driver plowed into a group outside a shelter that had been housing migrants in a Texas border town on Sunday, leaving eight people dead – including several immigrants – and close to a dozen injured, authorities say.
Authorities in Brownsville, Texas say they got a call around 8:30 am CT about a Land Rover that hit multiple people who were waiting at a bus stop across the street from the Bishop Enrique San Pedro Ozanam Center, a non-profit homeless shelter that has been helping house migrants. Authorities say it’s unclear whether the crash was intentional.
Seven people were found dead at the scene and 10 were taken to hospitals, Martin Sandoval, a Brownsville police spokesperson, told CNN. Later Sunday, an eighth person died due to injuries from the crash, Sandoval told CNN.
[...]
The driver, identified as a Hispanic man, is being “uncooperative” with authorities, according to Sandoval. He has given authorities multiple names, and police have had to fingerprint him in hopes of finding his identity – which takes more time, Sandoval said.
Almost as many dead as Garcia. Although it is not yet sure it was a deliberate attack and not for example a DUI.
 
Derec
Why are you trying to muddy the waters? You have a massive problem with guns deaths. The greatest in the "western" world.
Trying to equate this as somehow minimising the gun carnage is just tilting at windmills and a fool's errand..
 
Derec
Why are you trying to muddy the waters? You have a massive problem with guns deaths. The greatest in the "western" world.
Trying to equate this as somehow minimising the gun carnage is just tilting at windmills and a fool's errand..
It’s not tilting at wind mills. Don Quixote had a noble cause.
 
Why are you trying to muddy the waters? You have a massive problem with guns deaths. The greatest in the "western" world.
Trying to equate this as somehow minimising the gun carnage is just tilting at windmills and a fool's errand..
I was not trying to minimize anything, just putting things into perspective.

I agree we have a problem with gun violence, and I think we need stricter laws about who can acquire firearms and how. I do not go as far as the Democratic Party or many of the posters here want to go (i.e. banning certain rifles even though vast majority of firearm homicides are committed with handguns, not rifles). On the other hand, I see an unwillingness on the part of Dems to sufficiently go after gun criminals instead of going after lawful gun owners. Take the 1994 crime law signed by President Clinton and pushed by many Dem lawmakers including an obscure Senator from Delaware, one Joseph Robinette Biden. It is now considered anathema by the Dems, showing how far they have shifted to the left on the issue of crime and punishment.
 
It’s not tilting at wind mills. Don Quixote had a noble cause.
What "noble cause" did Alonso Quijano have again? It's been a long while since I read the book, but isn't the whole point that he was, in fact, quite mad?
 
On the other hand, I see an unwillingness on the part of Dems to go after gun criminals instead of going after lawful gun owners.
The Allen TX shooter was a lawful gun owner, until he wasn't.
 
The Allen TX shooter was a lawful gun owner, until he wasn't.
I am also in favor of barring people from gun ownership for mental health reasons.

That said, if you look at all firearm homicides, not just mass shootings (those killed or wounded in those are a small fraction of the total) I wonder how many of them owned guns legally.
 
The Allen TX shooter was a lawful gun owner, until he wasn't.
I am also in favor of barring people from gun ownership for mental health reasons.

That said, if you look at all firearm homicides, not just mass shootings (those killed or wounded in those are a small fraction of the total) I wonder how many of them owned guns legally.
Seat belts don't stop all car accident deaths. Air bags too. Collapsing front chassis. If they all don't stop car accident deaths, fuck em.

Oh and murder isn't illegal now too because I mean if Texas bans murder and has a death penalty and people are still murdering...
 
I was not trying to minimize anything, just putting things into perspective.
Yeah, the perspective "Guns aren't particularly dangerous, because you can also kill people with a car" isn't distorted or irrational in the slightest way. :rolleyesa:
To put it in the proper perspective, let's count up all the mass shootings that have happened between now and the time someone drove into a crowd of protesters at Charleston back in 2017.
 
I was not trying to minimize anything, just putting things into perspective.
Yeah, the perspective "Guns aren't particularly dangerous, because you can also kill people with a car" isn't distorted or irrational in the slightest way. :rolleyesa:
To put it in the proper perspective, let's count up all the mass shootings that have happened between now and the time someone drove into a crowd of protesters at Charleston back in 2017.
.. and compare that with the number of times someone was found guilty of intentionally harming others with a vehicle, and with a knife, and with a blunt object, and barehanded... I am curious how that all compares with each other.

PS... DUI deaths count as "intentional"... as per the spirit of DUI law.
 
I agree we have a problem with gun violence, and I think we need stricter laws about who can acquire firearms and how.
I will go a step further and say that guns do not belong in the hands of civilians, with the exception of farmers defending their livestock and crops against certain types of animals or people living in remote areas who need to carry guns to defend themselves against predators.

We cannot take away the guns; that would require a new amendment which is not likely to happen in our lifetimes. But we can try to pass legislation that makes it much harder for civilians to legally acquire guns, including mandatory mental health evaluations. We can also ban the sale of rifles and pistols (short-barrel rifles) based on the original M16 platform (like the AR- style weapons and similar) and the AK platform.
 
We cannot take away the guns; that would require a new amendment which is not likely to happen in our lifetimes.

Or we could just go all Constitutional Originalist and decide that the 2nd amendment refers to the arms the Authors were familiar with, muzzle loaders.
Tom
 
We cannot take away the guns; that would require a new amendment which is not likely to happen in our lifetimes.

Or we could just go all Constitutional Originalist and decide that the 2nd amendment refers to the arms the Authors were familiar with, muzzle loaders.
Tom
I would be fine with roll back to what I have. A 303 BSA 1945 and a retro 6 shot revolver.
 
A car ramming, also in Texas.
Death toll increases to 8 after car plows into a crowd in front of a Texas shelter that was housing migrants
CNN said:
A driver plowed into a group outside a shelter that had been housing migrants in a Texas border town on Sunday, leaving eight people dead – including several immigrants – and close to a dozen injured, authorities say.
Authorities in Brownsville, Texas say they got a call around 8:30 am CT about a Land Rover that hit multiple people who were waiting at a bus stop across the street from the Bishop Enrique San Pedro Ozanam Center, a non-profit homeless shelter that has been helping house migrants. Authorities say it’s unclear whether the crash was intentional.
Seven people were found dead at the scene and 10 were taken to hospitals, Martin Sandoval, a Brownsville police spokesperson, told CNN. Later Sunday, an eighth person died due to injuries from the crash, Sandoval told CNN.
[...]
The driver, identified as a Hispanic man, is being “uncooperative” with authorities, according to Sandoval. He has given authorities multiple names, and police have had to fingerprint him in hopes of finding his identity – which takes more time, Sandoval said.
Almost as many dead as Garcia. Although it is not yet sure it was a deliberate attack and not for example a DUI.
Are you pretending this is news to us? Yes, we know cars are dangerous, that's why their manufacture, use, and licensure is highly regulated, and car modifications with no other purpose than increasing that danger are in most states flatly llegal.
 
We cannot take away the guns; that would require a new amendment which is not likely to happen in our lifetimes.

Or we could just go all Constitutional Originalist and decide that the 2nd amendment refers to the arms the Authors were familiar with, muzzle loaders.
Tom
And go by the definition of the militia as defined in the original militia acr.
 
We cannot take away the guns; that would require a new amendment which is not likely to happen in our lifetimes.

Or we could just go all Constitutional Originalist and decide that the 2nd amendment refers to the arms the Authors were familiar with, muzzle loaders.
Tom
Hi Tom. I'm not sure there is much legal merit to this position, as the Constitution gets reinterpreted on a regular basis to accommodate changes in cultural and technological changes. The wording "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is pretty much impossible to misinterpret. It clearly establishes the rights of the people to own and bear arms, which is the modern world would presumably include all manner of modern weapons. There is potentially some leverage with the interpretation of "well regulated", and I feel a reasonable argument could be made for much tougher laws to keep guns out of the hands of some people who might otherwise be legally allowed to own guns. But there is no real change without a rewrite, a new amendment to overturn the second. Sadly, there is no political will in the country to bring about this change, or even smaller changes. I predict that we will continue to see mass shootings in the coming years, and such events will merge into the fabric of who we are as a people, simply background noise.
 
The wording "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is pretty much impossible to misinterpret. It clearly establishes the rights of the people to own and bear arms
... in the context of their being part of a well regulated militia.

If you don't join such an organisation (eg the National Guard), then you aren't one of the people to whom the amendment applies.

You say it's pretty much impossible to misinterpret, while wilfully ignoring the explicit context, and thereby clearly misinterpreting it.

It appears it's not only not impossible, it's as simple as ignoring the entire first part of the amendment.
 
The wording "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is pretty much impossible to misinterpret. It clearly establishes the rights of the people to own and bear arms
... in the context of their being part of a well regulated militia.

If you don't join such an organisation (eg the National Guard), then you aren't one of the people to whom the amendment applies.

You say it's pretty much impossible to misinterpret, while wilfully ignoring the explicit context, and thereby clearly misinterpreting it.

It appears it's not only not impossible, it's as simple as ignoring the entire first part of the amendment.

Hi Bibly. This is the text of the second amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

In my opinion, the words "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" serve as a preamble to the second part of the amendment which grants the right: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". The people are the militia, as distinguished from the forces created and controlled by the government. If the founders had meant to say that government, federal or state, have the right to create armies, or other organized forces like the National Guard (under the control of the state government) and arm them to provide security, I think they would have drafted it differently to say just that. I think the founders were more concerned about the right of the people to defend themselves against the tyranny of the government, exercised through the use of armies maintained and controlled by the government, and the second amendment was drafted to address this concern. It is also important to remember that the first ten amendments to the Constitution, collectively referred to as the Bill of Rights, are about the personal rights and freedoms of individuals.

That being said, I believe there is room for interpretation as to what the words "well regulated militia" mean in the context of passing legislation to control the sale and possession of firearms, since passing an amendment to overwrite the second is impossible in today's political world. It can be argued that the circumstances that led the founders to consider such a right necessary for the ordinary person to have no longer exist. Most Americans do not fear that the Federal government will use its standing armies against its own citizens, nor do the people, armed though they might be, have any meaningful ability to stand up to the government's standing armies, or an invasion by another nation's armies, if such an event were to actually happen.
 
In my opinion, the words "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" serve as a preamble to the second part of the amendment which grants the right: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". The people are the militia, as distinguished from the forces created and controlled by the government.
I understand that that's your opinion, and that it is a widely held and very well respected opinion in the USA today.

I reject it utterly.

The idea that the government of the day were seeking to allow an armed force to exist that was outside their direct control is absurd.

They needed the people to be available to fight on behalf of the government, against foreign forces, specifically: The English, (who were less than enthusiastic about their colonies having been stolen); The Native Americans, (who were less than enthusiastic about their country having been stolen); and The slaves, (who were less than enthusiastic about having been stolen from their countries).

They did not need a bunch of fuckwits with delusions of importance to be able to contradict the (allegedly) lawful governments of the newly created Republic, nor did they expect people to be allowed to just shoot each other for any reason they wanted.

Every patriotic American who wants to join in as part of the militia, to keep the English, the Indians, and the Niggers in their place must be allowed to do so. That's what the second amendment is about. And as the new government is penniless and without the resources to equip these militias, it's going to be done on a "bring your own guns and ammo" basis.

Of course my interpretation is hugely unpopular, and flies in the face of a great number of national myths that Americans truly love, cherish, and believe.

But the crucial difference between your opinion and mine is that yours doesn't really fit in with the historical realities of the time, nor with the basic political realities that apply at all times and places throughout history; While mine absolutely does.

People aren't nice, and they don't grant power to others because it's the right thing to do. People (particularly slave owners who are building a new country, that they just stole from a world power, who just stole it from a bunch of belligerent indigenes) aren't noble benefactors of a glorious new society of free men and women. But they are more than happy to be thought of that way, when the reality is that they're aware of a gaping vacuum in their power, and need a bunch of hapless volunteers to stand in place of the armies they can't afford.

The idea that the new government wanted to create a force that could keep the new government in check is ridiculous. They wanted to create a force that they themselves could wield against their three major threats, without having to pay the very steep cost of maintaining such a force.

And that's bloody obvious to anyone who didn't grow up steeped in the mythology that Americans have spent the last two and a half centuries spinning around this rather ignoble, but immensely practical, compromise.

"Tyranny of the government" my arse. The government never saw themselves as tyrannical, nor ever able to become so under the terms of their shiny new constitution.
 
Back
Top Bottom