Drag Shows

[bilby]

There are similar cases of children having/ wanting plastic surgery, which are real.

You will forgive any sane person for not taking your word for this, particularly in the light of the fact that the only evidence you've presented so far is an obviously nonsensical fake.

You're a bit late. I've acknowledged its fake. Sane, that you're suggesting you are, needs a little alertness oiling.
(I do too )

You acknowledged it's fake, and then didn't change your worldview one iota.

That's not how it works. "Sorry" isn't a complete response to an error; It's the starting point for a response. Unless you are just using it to silence your critics.

 

[Learner]

There are similar cases of children having/ wanting plastic surgery, which are real.

You will forgive any sane person for not taking your word for this, particularly in the light of the fact that the only evidence you've presented so far is an obviously nonsensical fake.

You're a bit late. I've acknowledged its fake. Sane, that you're suggesting you are, needs a little alertness oiling.
(I do too )

You acknowledged it's fake, and then didn't change your worldview one iota.

That's not how it works. "Sorry" isn't a complete response to an error; It's the starting point for a response. Unless you are just using it to silence your critics.

Change my view about Children being influenced into believing they can be like adults? That is the point.

 

[Toni]

Yes you're right Laughing D. . Breast implants for minors wouldn't be performed by any doctor, (being illegal) because they're not developed enough. It doesn't make sense at all of course (he says now).

The nine year old I was talking about had plastic surgery to adjust her facial features, influenced by her idols who were fashion models.
The pre-teens may wait a few years until they're older, unless they lose interest. They've been influenced nevertheless. I know some young children have cosmetic corrective surgery, which is a necessity.

Given that medical ethics is involved
I would wager that virtually all plastic surgery performed on anyone under the age of 16 would be to correct facial deformities or to repair damage from accidents/burns. Additionally, surgery for things like deviated septa, or surgeries to correct jaw alignment or other similar surgeries to correct serious dental issues or jaw misalignments, etc. Of course, there are surgeries to correct cleft palates, and also sometimes to remove extra digits, vestigial tails, malformed ears, etc. Some of these 'cosmetic surgeries' are performed on very, very young children --even infants--in order to allow them to feed normally and to develop without delays in speech, etc.

Normally rhinoplasty is not performed until the nose is fully grown at around age 12-14. Otoplasty: pinning protruding ears back is performed on minors.

Sometimes a minor will undergo breast reduction surgery. Breasts which are too large for the person's frame can cause serious pain and back problems in addition to negative social consequences. Surgery to reduce breast tissue in cases of gynecomastia (breast development in males) is sometimes performed.

I did run across a story reported by multiple media outlets about a 9 year old Japanese girl whose mother urged her to consent to surgery on her eyelids 'to make her more beautiful' aka more western looking. In the US, anyone under 18 must have parental consent for surgery. This happened in Japan. I can't imagine this happening in the US.

Two of my children required orthodontia serious enough that surgical intervention was contemplated. The orthodontist advised waiting to see how jaws continued to grow and this proved the correct course of action. Both kids needed orthodontia but neither needed surgery.

Ethical physicians act in the best interests of the child's health, rather than parental vanity.

Medical ethics - ethical POV like having decisions made through compassionate ethics, based on the happiness of the child, in that, the regarding related procedure, wanted by the child (permitted by the parents), is understood to be within all the acceptable requirements or medical parameters, - being safe to the child's, physical and psychological wellbeing, just as it would be required for, in any other everyday procedure.

Are you sure that there aren't any ethical medical professionals out there, who could view this differently, who wouldn't see this actually harmful?

Of course there are medical professionals who are outliers and who might not wish to perform one of thes procedures.

I take exception to your characterization that such surgeries are done for the happiness of the child, something that is not easy to predict or to measure. Health benefits are more predictable and measurable. Small children are not capable of long term thinking and will almost always avoid short term pain and discomfort because they can’t perceive the medical necessity. Almost no child is happy to be vaccinated. Tonsillectomies, ear tubes and a hernia repairs are not fun. Chemotherapy is brutal.


Sometimes parents make decisions on behalf of their children that their children protest.

What is technically considered plastic surgery is not necessarily related in any way to vanity but to function and long term health.

 

[Ford]

I agree that society needs to be careful about sexualizing children. As others have observed, child beauty pageants are the place to start - they are much more prevalent and entrenched in our society.

One of the sleaziest businesses I ever ran across when doing ads were the "child talent agencies." They'd promise parents that they'd make their kids a star, name dropping kids who made it onto Disney shows and other such outlets. You'd pay them to get your kid in front of some agent who'd supposedly "worked with" someone who went on to land a role on some show, but it was mostly just a grift.

Oh, and to Toni's point earlier...the "nicest guy in Hollywood" and the star of such family classics as the Toy Story movies and The Polar Express got his big break on a TV show where he was in drag.

Should we keep Tom Hanks away from children?

 

[steve_bank]

It has been covered by reporting in the ast.

Parents who agreeiuvely push young gorls into beauty pageants hoping for a futue finacial sucess.

 

[atrib]

Stating (what should be) the obvious - We need to be careful, how far this goes, depending what is exposed to young children, who can easily be influenced.

7- year old girl receives breast implants for Christmas

Had you done a little bit of research you would have discovered that the story is not true, but you couldn't be bothered. But even more astounding is the fact that you could read a story like this and be gullible and naive to swallow it whole without the least bit of skepticism. And you continue to insist that such things happen routinely even after your claim has been debunked and your evidence exposed as a falsehood - I have no words.

And you call yourself Learner. Un-fucking-believable!

 

[Learner]

I was wondering when you were going to pop in. I should of made a wager that you'll appear soon - 'the tag team special' Where there's bilby, atrib"s nearby. Not interested in the point I was making - How children can be influenced ... Just your "intellectual flexing".
I like conversing with both of you anyway.

 

[atrib]

I was wondering when you were going to pop in. I should of made a wager that you'll appear soon - 'the tag team special' Where there's bilby, atrib"s nearby. Not interested in the point I was making - How children can be influenced ... Just your "intellectual flexing".
I like conversing with both of you anyway.

You posted a claim that appears to allege that children are being routinely exposed to sexualized, adult behavior, and are being influenced by adults to act in sexual ways. In support of this claim you posted a link to a story about a 6-year old girl who had allegedly received breast implants. The story turned out to be false. But instead of acknowledging that your claim was based on a falsehood, and reexamining the foundational processes you used to come to your conclusion and frame your argument, you doubled down on your original claim and alleged that you knew of other stories just like this. Without providing any supporting evidence.

This is dishonest behavior. It tells me that you are not interested in facts, that you are not willing to do even a minimal level of due diligence to formulate your ideas and support them with evidence. You believe what you believe, and you are willing to repeat falsehoods to spread these claims.

When you resort to such behavior, you will get called out on it, as frequently happens in these forums. If you don't want to get called out for repeating falsehoods and using a deeply flawed epistemological process, stop behaving this way.

 

[scombrid]

Why is drag suddenly the hot issue for the right? Has there been a recent increase in drag queens shaking their tucked junk at kids? Is there really nothing better for them to find to make noise about to distract from there support for Trump and assholes like Stew Peters, Nick Fuentes, Joe Ladipo, Alex Jones, Marg, Boebert, etc… That is what this Qaren outrage is about isn’t it? Noise to piss off the plebes and distract from news about the Jan 6 findings.

 

[Politesse]

Why is drag suddenly the hot issue for the right? Has there been a recent increase in drag queens shaking their tucked junk at kids? Is there really nothing better for them to find to make noise about to distract from there support for Trump and assholes like Stew Peters, Nick Fuentes, Joe Ladipo, Alex Jones, Marg, Boebert, etc… That is what this Qaren outrage is about isn’t it? Noise to piss off the plebes and distract from news about the Jan 6 findings.

Makes for a good jump scare headline.

 

[Learner]

Yes you're right Laughing D. . Breast implants for minors wouldn't be performed by any doctor, (being illegal) because they're not developed enough. It doesn't make sense at all of course (he says now).

The nine year old I was talking about had plastic surgery to adjust her facial features, influenced by her idols who were fashion models.
The pre-teens may wait a few years until they're older, unless they lose interest. They've been influenced nevertheless. I know some young children have cosmetic corrective surgery, which is a necessity.

Given that medical ethics is involved
I would wager that virtually all plastic surgery performed on anyone under the age of 16 would be to correct facial deformities or to repair damage from accidents/burns. Additionally, surgery for things like deviated septa, or surgeries to correct jaw alignment or other similar surgeries to correct serious dental issues or jaw misalignments, etc. Of course, there are surgeries to correct cleft palates, and also sometimes to remove extra digits, vestigial tails, malformed ears, etc. Some of these 'cosmetic surgeries' are performed on very, very young children --even infants--in order to allow them to feed normally and to develop without delays in speech, etc.

Normally rhinoplasty is not performed until the nose is fully grown at around age 12-14. Otoplasty: pinning protruding ears back is performed on minors.

Sometimes a minor will undergo breast reduction surgery. Breasts which are too large for the person's frame can cause serious pain and back problems in addition to negative social consequences. Surgery to reduce breast tissue in cases of gynecomastia (breast development in males) is sometimes performed.

I did run across a story reported by multiple media outlets about a 9 year old Japanese girl whose mother urged her to consent to surgery on her eyelids 'to make her more beautiful' aka more western looking. In the US, anyone under 18 must have parental consent for surgery. This happened in Japan. I can't imagine this happening in the US.

Two of my children required orthodontia serious enough that surgical intervention was contemplated. The orthodontist advised waiting to see how jaws continued to grow and this proved the correct course of action. Both kids needed orthodontia but neither needed surgery.

Ethical physicians act in the best interests of the child's health, rather than parental vanity.

Medical ethics - ethical POV like having decisions made through compassionate ethics, based on the happiness of the child, in that, the regarding related procedure, wanted by the child (permitted by the parents), is understood to be within all the acceptable requirements or medical parameters, - being safe to the child's, physical and psychological wellbeing, just as it would be required for, in any other everyday procedure.

Are you sure that there aren't any ethical medical professionals out there, who could view this differently, who wouldn't see this actually harmful?

Of course there are medical professionals who are outliers and who might not wish to perform one of thes procedures.

I take exception to your characterization that such surgeries are done for the happiness of the child, something that is not easy to predict or to measure.

Apologies for that, I wasn't clear here when I mentioned happiness. I used the word in context as to being the alternative to a mental state, that these young girls would suffer from, and that is a form of depression! An emotional and psychological state which simply is affected by what the young individual sees through their eyes etc..

I've chose the BBC's link (carefully this time, which I should have used this in my original post instead) just to illustrate my initial point.

Vagina surgery 'sought by girls as young as nine'

An exerpt from the page link:

Paquita de Zulueta, a GP for more than 30 years, said it was only in the past few years that girls had started coming to her with concerns over the appearance of their labia.
"I'm seeing young girls around 11, 12, 13 thinking there's something wrong with their vulva - that they're the wrong shape, the wrong size, and really expressing almost disgust.
"Their perception is that the inner lips should be invisible, almost like a Barbie, but the reality is that there is a huge variation. It's very normal for the lips to protrude."


She blames the unrealistic images girls are being exposed to through pornography and social media.
"There isn't enough education and it should start really quite young, explaining that there is a range and that - just as we all look different in our faces - we all look different down there, and that's OK."

Health benefits are more predictable and measurable. Small children are not capable of long term thinking and will almost always avoid short term pain and discomfort because they can’t perceive the medical necessity. Almost no child is happy to be vaccinated. Tonsillectomies, ear tubes and a hernia repairs are not fun. Chemotherapy is brutal.


Sometimes parents make decisions on behalf of their children that their children protest.

What is technically considered plastic surgery is not necessarily related in any way to vanity but to function and long term health.

No disputing you. I understand this as you do.

 

[Toni]

Some years ago, I came to realize /was reminded that among a certain set of women and girls, there is incredible pressure to conform to extremely unrealistic standards of perfection—beauty, style, relationship, social circle, career….

And with the internet, porn has set an extremely misogynistic standard for sex for women and for girls whose mothers are seeking to protect them from information they find not age appropriate and then the expectations of boys acquired from porn with no guidance from their fathers who tend to not discuss sex or relationships with their sons.

 

[Jarhyn]

There are similar cases of children having/ wanting plastic surgery, which are real.

You will forgive any sane person for not taking your word for this, particularly in the light of the fact that the only evidence you've presented so far is an obviously nonsensical fake.

You're a bit late. I've acknowledged its fake. Sane, that you're suggesting you are, needs a little alertness oiling.
(I do too )

You acknowledged it's fake, and then didn't change your worldview one iota.

That's not how it works. "Sorry" isn't a complete response to an error; It's the starting point for a response. Unless you are just using it to silence your critics.

Change my view about Children being influenced into believing they can be like adults? That is the point.

So uh, there is no adult anywhere through history that ever became anything other than a "child" without something influencing them into believing they could be an adult.

Influencing children into believing they can be like adults is the entire point of childhood education and the express job of parents.

The issue here is that having surgeries to 'correct' minor 'problems' is not acting like an adult... It's acting like a spoiled fucking child.

Usually we all make fun of and recognize when people waste buckets of money and put on plastic faces.

The goal of trans rights activists is to see that this is not necessary, to make sure that people have access to body chemistry that gives people a chance to look like themselves without surgery at all.

Preventing induction to surgery has always been the goal. Breast enlargement, adams apple modification, etc only happens when an errant puberty has already happened.

Nobody who is trans wants that. If someone is getting surgery because that is the only means available to them to get anything approaching the body they want, something has already gone wrong!

Usually this means someone has filled their head with lies that happiness as a human means having a body or face that the shallow will lust over, its own special kind of abuse. This kind of abuse flows as a fountain from those who proclaim what the epitome of the masculine and feminine look like.

We instead deserve permission and acceptance to be exactly who we are so long as that does not involve theft or harm! Sometimes that involves a rejection of the hormonal path one finds themselves attached to, access to impact their own psychology in that way.

It shouldn't have to involve surgery and the clearest path to not having surgery is to embrace choice regarding the change, and to embrace only the most noncommittal choices at those ages: to defer and delay.

 

[Arctish]

 

[Learner]

I was wondering when you were going to pop in. I should of made a wager that you'll appear soon - 'the tag team special' Where there's bilby, atrib"s nearby. Not interested in the point I was making - How children can be influenced ... Just your "intellectual flexing".
I like conversing with both of you anyway.

You posted a claim that appears to allege that children are being routinely exposed to sexualized, adult behavior, and are being influenced by adults to act in sexual ways. In support of this claim you posted a link to a story about a 6-year old girl who had allegedly received breast implants. The story turned out to be false. But instead of acknowledging that your claim was based on a falsehood, and reexamining the foundational processes you used to come to your conclusion and frame your argument, you doubled down on your original claim and alleged that you knew of other stories just like this. Without providing any supporting evidence.

I wasn't going to bother replying because the BBC link I posted to Toni #131 should be sufficient to show and for you to notice, "that appears to allege children are being exposed..." is actually is real. I used the wrong link sure, carelessly, but you insist these things don't occur.

This is dishonest behavior. It tells me that you are not interested in facts, that you are not willing to do even a minimal level of due diligence to formulate your ideas and support them with evidence. You believe what you believe, and you are willing to repeat falsehoods to spread these claims.

When you resort to such behavior, you will get called out on it, as frequently happens in these forums. If you don't want to get called out for repeating falsehoods and using a deeply flawed epistemological process, stop behaving this way.

I won't go on, tit-for-tat. You see what you want to see. I've said all I need in the above.

 

[Learner]

There are similar cases of children having/ wanting plastic surgery, which are real.

You will forgive any sane person for not taking your word for this, particularly in the light of the fact that the only evidence you've presented so far is an obviously nonsensical fake.

You're a bit late. I've acknowledged its fake. Sane, that you're suggesting you are, needs a little alertness oiling.
(I do too )

You acknowledged it's fake, and then didn't change your worldview one iota.

That's not how it works. "Sorry" isn't a complete response to an error; It's the starting point for a response. Unless you are just using it to silence your critics.

Change my view about Children being influenced into believing they can be like adults? That is the point.

So uh, there is no adult anywhere through history that ever became anything other than a "child" without something influencing them into believing they could be an adult.

Influencing children into believing they can be like adults is the entire point of childhood education and the express job of parents.

Yes well you can talk ' technically speaking' i.e., putting in a different way to the term i.e., influencing children - to mean being responsible as adults, when educating children. One can differentiate, or clarify the context meaning when using the term, influencing children - like if alternatively, the context you want to portray, should mean being harmful influences to children. You know ... like the bit where we put out age-restrictions and what not, with the conventional, universal understanding that under-age means protecting children.

The issue here is that having surgeries to 'correct' minor 'problems' is not acting like an adult... It's acting like a spoiled fucking child.

Usually we all make fun of and recognize when people waste buckets of money and put on plastic faces.

How about considering that these things vary person to person, and it's not all about being spoiled. There are a lot of psychological issues involved.

The goal of trans rights activists is to see that this is not necessary, to make sure that people have access to body chemistry that gives people a chance to look like themselves without surgery at all.

Preventing induction to surgery has always been the goal. Breast enlargement, adams apple modification, etc only happens when an errant puberty has already happened.

Nobody who is trans wants that. If someone is getting surgery because that is the only means available to them to get anything approaching the body they want, something has already gone wrong!

Not something I was actually arguing against or discussing. you're promoting a personal ideal it seems, fair enough if it is the case.

Usually this means someone has filled their head with lies that happiness as a human means having a body or face that the shallow will lust over, its own special kind of abuse. This kind of abuse flows as a fountain from those who proclaim what the epitome of the masculine and feminine look like.

We instead deserve permission and acceptance to be exactly who we are so long as that does not involve theft or harm! Sometimes that involves a rejection of the hormonal path one finds themselves attached to, access to impact their own psychology in that way.

It shouldn't have to involve surgery and the clearest path to not having surgery is to embrace choice regarding the change, and to embrace only the most noncommittal choices at those ages: to defer and delay.

Yes well as I was saying in top part of this post. Also the very first post of mine I said: We need to be careful, how far this goes, depending what is exposed to young children, etc, & etc.,. There's more to it than just breast enhancement IOW.

 

[laughing dog]

Yes you're right Laughing D. . Breast implants for minors wouldn't be performed by any doctor, (being illegal) because they're not developed enough. It doesn't make sense at all of course (he says now).

The nine year old I was talking about had plastic surgery to adjust her facial features, influenced by her idols who were fashion models.
The pre-teens may wait a few years until they're older, unless they lose interest. They've been influenced nevertheless. I know some young children have cosmetic corrective surgery, which is a necessity.

Given that medical ethics is involved
I would wager that virtually all plastic surgery performed on anyone under the age of 16 would be to correct facial deformities or to repair damage from accidents/burns. Additionally, surgery for things like deviated septa, or surgeries to correct jaw alignment or other similar surgeries to correct serious dental issues or jaw misalignments, etc. Of course, there are surgeries to correct cleft palates, and also sometimes to remove extra digits, vestigial tails, malformed ears, etc. Some of these 'cosmetic surgeries' are performed on very, very young children --even infants--in order to allow them to feed normally and to develop without delays in speech, etc.

Normally rhinoplasty is not performed until the nose is fully grown at around age 12-14. Otoplasty: pinning protruding ears back is performed on minors.

Sometimes a minor will undergo breast reduction surgery. Breasts which are too large for the person's frame can cause serious pain and back problems in addition to negative social consequences. Surgery to reduce breast tissue in cases of gynecomastia (breast development in males) is sometimes performed.

I did run across a story reported by multiple media outlets about a 9 year old Japanese girl whose mother urged her to consent to surgery on her eyelids 'to make her more beautiful' aka more western looking. In the US, anyone under 18 must have parental consent for surgery. This happened in Japan. I can't imagine this happening in the US.

Two of my children required orthodontia serious enough that surgical intervention was contemplated. The orthodontist advised waiting to see how jaws continued to grow and this proved the correct course of action. Both kids needed orthodontia but neither needed surgery.

Ethical physicians act in the best interests of the child's health, rather than parental vanity.

Medical ethics - ethical POV like having decisions made through compassionate ethics, based on the happiness of the child, in that, the regarding related procedure, wanted by the child (permitted by the parents), is understood to be within all the acceptable requirements or medical parameters, - being safe to the child's, physical and psychological wellbeing, just as it would be required for, in any other everyday procedure.

Are you sure that there aren't any ethical medical professionals out there, who could view this differently, who wouldn't see this actually harmful?

Of course there are medical professionals who are outliers and who might not wish to perform one of thes procedures.

I take exception to your characterization that such surgeries are done for the happiness of the child, something that is not easy to predict or to measure.

Apologies for that, I wasn't clear here when I mentioned happiness. I used the word in context as to being the alternative to a mental state, that these young girls would suffer from, and that is a form of depression! An emotional and psychological state which simply is affected by what the young individual sees through their eyes etc..

I've chose the BBC's link (carefully this time, which I should have used this in my original post instead) just to illustrate my initial point.

Vagina surgery 'sought by girls as young as nine'

Your linked article indicates that even though girls under the age of 18 sought this surgery, no surgeries were performed for cosmetic reasons on those girls. The UK medical profession acted responsibly in those instances. So the fear about such surgeries appears to unfounded.

While it is disturbingly sad that children feel the need to have purely cosmetic surgery, that issue is not due to public policy ideas stemming from any ideology. Nor does it appear that the medical community at large is acting unethically.

In my view, the issue of how people are dressed while reading to children (in drag or not) is a trivial issue compared to the issue of the content of what is read to children.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes well you can talk ' technically speaking' i.e., putting in a different way to the term i.e., influencing children - to mean being responsible as adults, when educating children

Which includes introducing them to the idea that people who dress in drag are just people.

That means, sometimes, introducing them to the outlandish.

Being able to recognize and accept the existence of such outlandishness is important.

You speak as if it's irresponsible for "men", whatever that happens to mean to you for the moment, to wear dresses while reading to children. Is it irresponsible for "women" by whatever measure to wear pants?

Who decides these things, which of dresses or pants, which register of the voice spoken in, and so on, for reading to children, none of which existed except children in the days when the first hominids covered their bodies?

The first thing the strongest hominid says? Is that it?

That would just be utterly stupid.

 

[TomC]

Which includes introducing them to the idea that people who dress in drag are just people.

This is important.

Assuming the material is appropriate for the audience, introducing kids to people who are different from them is important. Different from the norm. Expanding their world to include people who push the boundaries of their normal world.

As a child, my world was extremely white and Catholic. It would have been better for me to be introduced to more diversity at a formative age. I had to work at it later. I did, but it was a much bigger struggle than might have been.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Drag is a bunch of male actors in womanface. I find it to be generally offensive and denigrating toward women

Maybe try thinking about it this way.

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"

That's the way I see it.

Drag performers can do shows that are utterly not suitable for children. I'm totally good with that. As long as children aren't in the audience. There's plenty of performances I think are great, but not suitable for children.

Frankly, I think a ton of the action movies and superhero stuff are unsuitable for children. They don't need the exposure to violence that is rife in modern media.

But I don't see the same level of outrage from people about that.
Tom